trepidatious

[Udarnik]

Did he speak of his mother and father, or any of his grandparents?

I am really curious as to why Nibs chose the name "DeWolfe" over "Waterbury" for his alias. Did Hisself ever talk about his ancestry? In my experience, Westerners are extremely proud of that. Perhaps because they don't have the long-term roots to both land and family we Easterners sometimes do. But in many ways he did not seem like the typical Westerner.

Was his father dead by the time you knew him?

 

[sallydannce]

Dear Cowboy,

Thank you! Really really thank you!

 

[cowboy]

Did he speak of his mother and father, or any of his grandparents?

I am really curious as to why Nibs chose the name "DeWolfe" over "Waterbury" for his alias. Did Hisself ever talk about his ancestry? In my experience, Westerners are extremely proud of that. Perhaps because they don't have the long-term roots to both land and family we Easterners sometimes do. But in many ways he did not seem like the typical Westerner.

Was his father dead by the time you knew him?

I'm sorry, I don't remember when HRH died. I remember him on the ship, a very pleasant older gentleman. No, LRH didn't speak of his parents, or ancestry. He did speak of his past lives, if you consider that his ancestry.

Again, family, even immediate family just wasn't that important. The messengers were much closer to him than his family. Although, as I've discussed, he did write MSH every day once they parted.

I was with him when Quentin's death was reported. He didn't have much emotion.

 

[cowboy]

Dear Cowboy,

Thank you! Really really thank you!

I've not done much, but thanks. Most of you have come to similar conclusions, just based on similar events as that which I recount. In fact maybe I was dumber than most, because I had the writing on the wall right in front of my face and still took a while to see the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Then I can't say one way or the other. I was not with him then, I was still in Fla. I don't believe or disbelieve, I can only say that I didn't witness anything like that when I was there. I'm not trying to defend him. Nor incriminate. I'm simply trying to limit my testimonies to that which I have first hand knowledge, or, in some cases, knowledge passed on to me by well known friends who experienced it directly.

Hubbard was probably in California at that time.

Cowboy,

Thee & me were in different parts and places during the move to Daytona and then to CW. I personally know that El Ron went from the Apollo to Daytona and then on to Dunedin at King Arthur's Court Condominiums, where he was until around February or so '76, when Hisself fled with Kima and Mike on the Mad Hatter Ride up to DC. I think it was around sometime in June '76 that El Ron flew to SoCal, and lived in Culver City until moving to the Palm Springs area in October of that year...I was not directly involved in those movements but, due to my position at the time, had figured out a bit of what most likely was going on (securing El Ron and MSH somewhere in SoCal) and have read Kima's, Bent's and others accounts on the Net.

I don't believe or disbelieve, either, but I've got first hand knowledge of everywhere El Ron was from leaving the Apollo to leaving Dunedin. I know first hand that El Ron was not in SoCal in '75.

My time of personal interaction with El Ron began before yours and yours ended after mine.

Really do appreciate you're coming back around for a bit. You sure enough get me ole synapses firing and your "Take" is good stuff for this grizzled geezer gander.

Face

 

[still here]

I've not done much, but thanks. Most of you have come to similar conclusions, just based on similar events as that which I recount. In fact maybe I was dumber than most, because I had the writing on the wall right in front of my face and still took a while to see the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes.

Welcome back cowboy, you have been missed!

I don't think you were dumber. Perspective is more difficult the closer (and probably the younger) you are.
Much harder to view the god himself and see his flaws clinically, close up, than from a distance...and most of us saw them and stayed anyway for a good while.

As you say, Source could never be wrong, and we all accepted that too.

You really clarified for me though, how any instability he had was really fed by the filters on the information reaching him. It makes it easier to see how if you are producing anything, and being told it is working wonderfully, it would be impossible to make any kind of reasoned judgement, even if you still possessed that ability. He built his own trap, and it was well maintained.

Wonderful to have you back though, however short your stay.

Still

 

[DeeAnna]

I would tend to think brain damage/dementia as opposed to a brain tumor. Reason being, is the time factor involved. People are saying they observed the bizarre behaviors in the 70's and he did not die until 1986. The brain is contained within an extremely closed space. Any change in that space - from even things like a buildup of cerebral spinal fluid or a brain bleed - will displace the brain. A tumor is a growth, which takes up space. Often the first sign of a brain tumor is a seizure. Not that changes in behavior are not noted, they are. But so often they are noted in retrospect, because they often are not really, really noticeable.

It is very doubtful anyone would have a brain tumor for 10 years, not even a benign tumor. Maybe, maybe it is possible, but it is most improbable.

Deterioration in a pre-existing mental disorder along with onset of dementia would be much more likely. Plus the guy died from a stroke. Usually indicating a vascular disorder. And people with vascular disorders are prone to vascular related dementias.

Just my take on it.

_____________________

Here's the link to the Ann Bailey affidavit:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=6128

To read the entire document, click onto the "Link" shown at the top of the page.

 

[Veda]

You have spoken that you did not see him do drugs in your presence, and I believe you. Yet I also believe other eyewitnesses who testify to his drug use. He was a man of many facets, most of them cracked.

Could some of his eccentricities have been sue to either secret drug use or withdrawal from same?

It's helpful to place a date on things.

There's not much conflicting data.

Amongst the last references to drug or excessive alcohol consumption can be found the letter to Mary Sue circa 1966/67 where Hubbard wrote of "popping pinks and greys and drinking lots of rum," and Hana Eltringham's comments regarding her amazement at how much rum Hubbard was able to consume, and "remain upright and coherent," at a social occasion, IIRC, that honored Greek dignitaries, approx 1968.

Sometime later, Hubbard experienced health problems and his habits changed.

 

[Udarnik]

It's helpful to place a date on things.

There's not much conflicting data.

Amongst the last references to drug or excessive alcohol consumption, can be found the letter to Mary Sue circa 1966/67 where Hubbard wrote of "popping pinks and greys and drinking lots of rum," and Hana Eltringham's comments regarding her amazement at how much rum Hubbard was able to consume, and "remain upright and coherent," at a social occasion, IIRC, that honored Greek dignitaries, approx 1968.

Sometime later, Hubbard experienced health problems and his habits changed.

That's something I'm curious about. It's hard to kick a habit cold turkey. Did he gradually reduce his intake, or did it suddenly end after a bout of illness? The strong self control necessary for cold turkey does not fit with my mental image of him, but I could be wrong.

 

[jenni with an eye]

for popping back Cowboy, I have my fingers crossed you'll stay a while.

I really do enjoy reading your posts.

 

[cowboy]

for popping back Cowboy, I have my fingers crossed you'll stay a while.

I really do enjoy reading your posts.

No promises on how long I'll stay, but I did want to let you all know that I'm well, and maybe answer anything I could. Really, I wish I could say who I am, as I'd be able to clarify how there are certain things which I'm totally certain of, but, I don't want to open a can of worms for myself either. Heck, even if I said who I was, a lotta people wouldn't believe me.

Anyway, I'll give you all a few days notice when I'm heading out again. Until then, I'll try to explain anything I can that might help.

 

[cowboy]

Cowboy,

Thee & me were in different parts and places during the move to Daytona and then to CW. I personally know that El Ron went from the Apollo to Daytona and then on to Dunedin at King Arthur's Court Condominiums, where he was until around February or so '76, when Hisself fled with Kima and Mike on the Mad Hatter Ride up to DC. I think it was around sometime in June '76 that El Ron flew to SoCal, and lived in Culver City until moving to the Palm Springs area in October of that year...I was not directly involved in those movements but, due to my position at the time, had figured out a bit of what most likely was going on (securing El Ron and MSH somewhere in SoCal) and have read Kima's, Bent's and others accounts on the Net.

I don't believe or disbelieve, either, but I've got first hand knowledge of everywhere El Ron was from leaving the Apollo to leaving Dunedin. I know first hand that El Ron was not in SoCal in '75.

My time of personal interaction with El Ron began before yours and yours ended after mine.

Really do appreciate you're coming back around for a bit. You sure enough get me ole synapses firing and your "Take" is good stuff for this grizzled geezer gander.

Face

Face, I think you have more knowledge of that period of time than I do. I knew the ship, Daytona, CW, then La Quinta in 1976. I don't have first hand knowledge of his whereabouts between when he left the ship and I hooked up in 76.

 

[Type4_PTS]

For what it's worth, the date per the affidavit was "late 1975," and the location, according to the affidavit, was the "seventh floor" of the "Fifield Manor" in Hollywood.

The affidavit seems to no longer be available on the Net.

Veda, you mean this affidavit?
http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=6128

This is "biographical gold." Really good reporting, Cowboy. Thank you so much for going to this trouble and doing it so well.

^^^^^^^^

Yes, THIS!

Thank-you Cowboy.

 

[TG1]

No promises on how long I'll stay, but I did want to let you all know that I'm well, and maybe answer anything I could. Really, I wish I could say who I am, as I'd be able to clarify how there are certain things which I'm totally certain of, but, I don't want to open a can of worms for myself either. Heck, even if I said who I was, a lotta people wouldn't believe me.

Anyway, I'll give you all a few days notice when I'm heading out again. Until then, I'll try to explain anything I can that might help.

Aw, come on. Try us.

TG1

 

[Rocketman2]

[QUOTE=GreyLensman...did you ever recommend reading E.E. Doc Smith's lensman series to another Scientologist? Back in 76?

 

[Udarnik]

No promises on how long I'll stay, but I did want to let you all know that I'm well, and maybe answer anything I could. Really, I wish I could say who I am, as I'd be able to clarify how there are certain things which I'm totally certain of, but, I don't want to open a can of worms for myself either. Heck, even if I said who I was, a lotta people wouldn't believe me.

Anyway, I'll give you all a few days notice when I'm heading out again. Until then, I'll try to explain anything I can that might help.

You don't owe us anything. Thanks for the answers you can provide.

I sympathize on not being able to say who you are. But the Co$ still has some teeth in its rotten old mouth, and you'd be a prime target even with all that's going on. Best to wait until DM is dead or in jail.

Not surprised that he showed no emotion on Quentin's death. Did his lack of feeling for family strike you as odd, or were you too young for that to be a red flag?

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

I would tend to think brain damage/dementia as opposed to a brain tumor. Reason being, is the time factor involved. People are saying they observed the bizarre behaviors in the 70's and he did not die until 1986. The brain is contained within an extremely closed space. Andy change in that space - from even things like a buildup of cerebral spinal fluid or a brain bleed - will displace the brain. A tumor is a growth, which takes up space. Often the first sign of a brain tumor is a seizure. Not that changes in behavior are not noted, they are. But so often they are noted in retrospect, because they often are not really, really noticeable.

It is very doubtful anyone would have a brain tumor for 10 years, not even a benign tumor. Maybe, maybe it is possible, but it is most improbable.

Deterioration in a pre-existing mental disorder along with onset of dementia would be much more likely. Plus the guy died from a stroke. Usually indicating a vascular disorder. And people with vascular disorders are prone to vascular related dementias.

Just my take on it.

_____________________

Here's the link to the Ann Bailey affidavit:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=6128

To read the entire document, click onto the "Link" shown at the top of the page.

As a layman with some personal experience, I agree re: the tumor. However, there are, from my personal medical history and experiences, forms of benign brain lesions and bleeding that can go undetected for years...especially if you or those around you are not paying attention or "rationalizing"...that can effect behavior and thought, and speaking from personal experience, and empirical and physician information, sometimes the symptoms go undetected by all, other than a specialist, because the afflicted individual is Masking" and the more intelligent the subject is, the more adept they are at "Masking". Sometimes this condition persist until an "Event" that leads to a diagnosis (hopefully before the "Event" is death) and treatment and, even then, there will be a lesser to greater degree of irreversible brain damage. That's why concussions are so important to be handled properly and, with contemporary Science's diagnostic tools and experience, the awareness of TBI "Traumatic Brain Injury" has become so much more understood and is more treatable and manageable...but not curable.

Face

 

[Veda]

-snip-

I personally know that El Ron went from the Apollo to Daytona and then on to Dunedin at King Arthur's Court Condominiums, where he was until around February or so '76, when Hisself fled with Kima and Mike on the Mad Hatter Ride up to DC. I think it was around sometime in June '76 that El Ron flew to SoCal, and lived in Culver City until moving to the Palm Springs area in October of that year...I was not directly involved in those movements but, due to my position at the time, had figured out a bit of what most likely was going on (securing El Ron and MSH somewhere in SoCal) and have read Kima's, Bent's and others accounts on the Net.

I don't believe or disbelieve, either, but I've got first hand knowledge of everywhere El Ron was from leaving the Apollo to leaving Dunedin. I know first hand that El Ron was not in SoCal in '75.

-snip-

Face,

When Hubbard fled with Kima and Mike to Wash., around Feb. 1976, was there a shore story that Hubbard was still in Florida? I have encountered former Sea Org people who were told that Hubbard remained in Florida during that time - at some undisclosed location - and, to this day, insist that Hubbard did not travel to Washington DC around Feb. 1976, which, as we know, he did.

If you're certain that that Hubbard could not have flown into southern California during late 1975 or early 1976, even for 24 hours, then it's safe to say that at least the date on the Ann Bailey affidavit is inaccurate.

It's amazing, considering the amount of secrecy, document destruction, hush money, etc., and deliberate misdirection, and smoke an mirrors, etc., that the pieces of the puzzle have been assembled at all.

Special thanks to folks such as you and Cowboy for your contribution of key puzzle pieces, allowing the rest of us to see the picture that appears.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Dea...

Cowboy,

Sorry about this question, but. . .

What's with all the costumes? (and other iconic photographs, busts, et al)?

​

Out of respect for Cowboy, I had to refrain from asking if Hubbard's record collection possibly included an album from The Village People.

 

[uncover]

.... the awareness of TBI "Traumatic Brain Injury" has become so much more understood and is more treatable, but not curable.

Face

Wait.... have you ever heard of scientology ? It will handle this....