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Tribalism within Scientology

guanoloco

As-Wased
Btw, I've noticed an insistence by some to call this thing called Scientology a cult. I'm new around here so I suppose this has been discussed in great detail and at great length somewhere here. It's as if you can just toss aside a point being made because "it's a cult", and stop the discussion right there. For my part, I had no evil or sinister motives for my participation. I wished no one ill will, inside or out. I hoped it could help people. It seems, just in my opinion, that a true cult would exist only where people were knowingly doing something against someone or something, with bad intentions or ill will, with a thought towards some destruction. That wasn't my thought, and seemingly wasn't the thought of the people I knew. It was most certainly my opinion I was involved in something good. I do not think that now.

My guess is that the Jim Jones koolaid drinkers had the opinion they were involved in something good. Still a cult.

Veda has some posts concerning the onion of Scientology. You were on the outer "good" layer. Read Veda's posts to see the rest of it.
 
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Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Btw, I've noticed an insistence by some to call this thing called Scientology a cult. I'm new around here so I suppose this has been discussed in great detail and at great length somewhere here. It's as if you can just toss aside a point being made because "it's a cult", and stop the discussion right there. For my part, I had no evil or sinister motives for my participation. I wished no one ill will, inside or out. I hoped it could help people. It seems, just in my opinion, that a true cult would exist only where people were knowingly doing something against someone or something, with bad intentions or ill will, with a thought towards some destruction. That wasn't my thought, and seemingly wasn't the thought of the people I knew. It was most certainly my opinion I was involved in something good. I do not think that now.
Actually, that isn't how cults operate. Yes, the people at the top may, indeed, have very bad intentions and ill will but the whole idea of a cult is to lure in followers by lying to them about how the cult is good and the cult will help the follower and, even, save the world.

Cult followers are, usually, good people who truly want to help themselves and others. That is how they get trapped.

Your understanding of cults is completely wrong. You need to find and study reputable sources about cults.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
My guess is that the Jim Jones koolaid drinkers had the opinion they were involved in something good. Still a cult.

Veda has some posts concerning the onion of Scientology. You were on the outer "good" layer. Read Veda's posts to see the rest of it.

Add to that, we can even totally "grant beingness" do L. Ron Hubbard and his religious technology by DUPLICATING WHAT HE SAYS TO DO AND THEN FOLLOWING HIS TECH EXACTLY.

Ron states that in order to attain spiritual freedom one must seek truth--the exact time, place, form and event. Only then will the lies and human suffering cease.

Ergo, the greatest scholars on Scientology -- persons with 30-50 years of diligent research, study and direct involvement in the rigorous disciplines and technologies -- unanimously concur that Scientology is a cult. These individual are all ex-Scientologists, many of which are posting here on this thread and on this message board.

That is perhaps one of the most exhaustive "peer reviewed clinical studies" ever conducted. Millions of hours of due diligence. And they all independently replicated the same protocols and got the identical result (i.e. "CULT!!!")

What's wrong with applying Ron's own technology to Scientology?

Isn't that in fact the fairest possible way imaginable to arrive at an unbiased determination if it's a cult?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
.


SCIENTOLOGY MINISTER
There you go again! I asked you
before to not call my religion a cult.

WOG
Why not? To me it is a cult. Didn't Ron
say what's real to you is what is real?
So, aren't I applying Ron's tech?

SCIENTOLOGY MINISTER
Fuck you, you fucking alter-ising squirrel SP!
I hope you DIAWOF![sup]1[/sup]




SCIENTOLOGISTS: They only want people to use the tech if it helps it leads to uptrending donations and soaring stats on the graph marked "psychological slavery".



[sup]1[/sup] DIAWOF - Die In A Wall Of Fire
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think this whole "tribal" thing is silly. Somebody is trying to create a new buzz word.

Muhammad brought together real tribes to create Islam. Then a bunch of them split off into different versions of Islam. There are hierarchies within each branch of Islam. Some are crazier than others. Those tribes were a common people with a common culture and many many generations of inter-family connections. If we want to talk about tribes and Islam then that would be absolutely accurate.

To try and say Scientology has "tribes" is to try and muddy up the terminology with some social study student's creative political thesis. How often do we hear people describing ancestral communities in Europe as tribes? Do we refer to different areas or communities in various American states as tribes (native Americans excepted)? Do Republicans or Democrats have tribes? Who talks like that?

After about 10 generations of Scientologists then we can start talking about tribes but I still think that would be a stretch. Trying to describe contemporary groups by associating them with tribes just seems kinda culty to me. They are groups, communities and organizations. There, see how simple that is?
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
When I join a particular Linux User Group am I joining a "tribe"?
When I join a FreeBSD Facebook group am I joining a "tribe"?

I don't think that the word "tribe" applies anymore to our modern human world.

Maybe this word would be applicable to ancient separated small hunter-gatherer societies?
 
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TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
When I join a particular Linux User Group am I joining a "tribe"?
When I join a FreeBSD Facebook group am I joining a "tribe"?

I don't think that the word "tribe" applies anymore to our modern human world.

Maybe this word would be applicable to ancient separated small hunter-gatherer societies?
I know, right? Do these neo-tribalists have any idea how much sacrifice, money and political resources have been expended by real tribes to establish respect and sovereignty for actual tribes? Now they want to go and hopelessly tangle the word itself up with all this leftist intellectual jargon? If I were a member of a legitimate tribe I'd be rightfully po'ed.

I can see it now, "Groups are from Mars and Tribes are from Venus".
 
I seem to run into it (tribe, tribalism) more often, and the takeaway I get is that a tribe tends to have or subscribe to a certain group think, rather than reason. As an example, you have a baseball pitcher in your city's team, and he's the best - he's the man etc. However when he changes to another team and suddenly he's the worst. He hasn't changed - his baseball uniform has. He has moved from your tribe to another tribe and has lost his status in your tribe as a good guy.

The reasonable view would be looking at him as a pitcher, who throws a mean sinker or slider that you appreciate irrespective of his team.

So David Mayo was the senior C/S, LRH's auditor, and suddenly, he's declared, and now an SP who's out to destroy scientology and vilified on every turn. That's group think. It's not stated that he was purposely ousted and denigrated to Scientologists, to lessen his status, because he was a threat to Miscavage's machinations /coup d'etat, yet that is the reasonable statement of what went down - essentially, tribalism is a conflict between fixed group think and reason.

It may be trendy, but it makes a lot of sense. That's what I see going on in Scientology - various tribes with variations of group think about the rightness of their particular group. So you see all these internal conflicts between them.

The real question is how to break the cycle and reestablish communication? Agreement?

Mimsey
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
"Group think" is not quite the same thing as ancient "tribe" but is similar.

IMO, "sociology" would be a better name for this topic.

Psychologically/sociologically, particular "group think" opinions start during early childhood years.
This is when mental/brain "world view" is developed.
(Another technical word for this is Weltanschauung).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view

Also, I recommend the old movie "The Savage Innocents".
 
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In the attached video starting at about 1:27:30 Pinker goes into an interesting discussion of tribalism. Group think is more of a manifestation of tribalism. He discusses, for instance, when you make a subject taboo, you create a tribalism - it becomes a us vs them proposition. The truth of a situation etc. is no longer pertinent, rather your group's beliefs are. It becomes: what will give you the most esteem in your particular group? The truth or the group's beliefs?

Truth is the victim. He gives an example, that a person will want to adopt the views of a group rather than face ostracism, and will adopt the groups mores, beliefs and you get these factions, or tribes forming. That you should avoid becoming a lawyer arguing only for your belief and omitting facts that may weaken your position. You won't find the truth otherwise.

Mimsey

 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
When I join a particular Linux User Group am I joining a "tribe"?
When I join a FreeBSD Facebook group am I joining a "tribe"?

I don't think that the word "tribe" applies anymore to our modern human world.

Maybe this word would be applicable to ancient separated small hunter-gatherer societies?


I received a request from a native American who is not proficient with computers. He asked me to post this comment on his behalf.


u8vjw.jpg


"I REALLY WISH ALL YOU DUMBASS SJWs WOULD STOP USING
THE FUCKING WORD "TRIBE". WHAT A BUNCH OF JERKOFFS!

- Chief Nattering Bull​
.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I seem to run into it (tribe, tribalism) more often, and the takeaway I get is that a tribe tends to have or subscribe to a certain group think, rather than reason. As an example, you have a baseball pitcher in your city's team, and he's the best - he's the man etc. However when he changes to another team and suddenly he's the worst. He hasn't changed - his baseball uniform has. He has moved from your tribe to another tribe and has lost his status in your tribe as a good guy.

The reasonable view would be looking at him as a pitcher, who throws a mean sinker or slider that you appreciate irrespective of his team.

So David Mayo was the senior C/S, LRH's auditor, and suddenly, he's declared, and now an SP who's out to destroy scientology and vilified on every turn. That's group think. It's not stated that he was purposely ousted and denigrated to Scientologists, to lessen his status, because he was a threat to Miscavage's machinations /coup d'etat, yet that is the reasonable statement of what went down - essentially, tribalism is a conflict between fixed group think and reason.

It may be trendy, but it makes a lot of sense. That's what I see going on in Scientology - various tribes with variations of group think about the rightness of their particular group. So you see all these internal conflicts between them.

The real question is how to break the cycle and reestablish communication? Agreement?

Mimsey
You are trying too hard to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

When someone cheers for a sports team that is what's known as. . .

Cheering for a sports team.

If you see that as tribal warfare, you should re-do Ron's priceless obnosis drills.

Or wait--here's a better drill. Try this.

Try looking at the reality of things in the physical universe, rather than in "your own universe". Those two things are not matching up and it's repeatedly making you look quite loony.

HELPFUL CLUE: Sports are not an example of tribalism. Sports are competitive games where the point is to try and win. And for fans, the point is to root for your team. There is nothing even slightly mysterious about this. It has NOTHING to do with tribes, tribalism or any of the fantastic theories you are reading about in the SJW WEEKLY JOURNAL OF PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC BULLSHIT.
 

screamer2

Idiot Bastardson
Well HH, while I agree with this: "Scientologists are all joined at the brain to "clear the planet". They are "at war" with NON SCIENTOLOGISTS, not Scientologists." I disagree with the last three words and the section about there are no tribes in the church.

I had been in Scientology some 40+ years and have seen this evolution from a unified push to clear the planet into a culture within the church that pits various sections against each other. In the beginning of my career in scientology the SO was not a common presence. They were off somewhere in the Mediterranean sending policies and tech out, they were training the first class 8's at the ship. Then they came in to a more public awareness.

As they expanded into the land bases, I began to see more networks, more battles with the FBOs (Flag Banking Officers) who sucked income out of the orgs, more recruiters stealing staff, more reges ripping off students and pc's from the class 4 orgs, more abuse of staff, threats of RPFs, more ethics conditions etc. Perhaps warfare isn't the best word for this.

To me - the concept of them being tribes within the whole makes sense. The different parts are distinctly different from each other. Yes, there is this overarching purpose to clear the planet, but internally, the organization as a whole, is at odds with itself as the different factions /sections /orgs /units vie and are at odds with each other. The whole concept of tribes is that each tribe has it's own beliefs, and you definitely see that in the different portions of scientology, and the collision of these conflicting beliefs.

That a recruiter could walk into your org, recruit your chief reg into the SO, and walk out the door with your biggest income producer, many times inadequately replaced, belies a moral belief in the recruiter that their purpose is higher than yours, that ripping off your staff isn't an overt. That is exemplar of one tribe vs. another within scientology.

I suppose I could refer to them as individual 3rd dynamics within an over all third dynamic of scientology, but I would be told - shut! up! with the scientology terminology. Hence tribes fits.

Noun
1.
tribalization - the act of making tribal; unification on a tribal basis
tribalisation
jointure, uniting, unification, conjugation, union - the act of making or becoming a single unit;

That last is what I mean - each portion is a single unit - separate yet existing and competing against other units, within the whole of scientology.
Mimsey
"Scientologists are all joined at the brain to "clear the planet"


Bullshit.

From a Guardian’s Order converted to OSA Network Order (successor to Guardian’s Office as the dirty tricks and propaganda arm of corporate Scientology):

(Originally written on 2 December 1969 by L. Ron Hubbard as a summary of data concerning Intelligence.)

Our war has been forced to become “To take over absolutely the field of mental
healing on this planet in all forms.” That was not the original purpose. The original purpose was to clear Earth.


https://markrathbun.blog/2014/03/04/the-aims-of-scientology-part-one
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
In anthropology, a tribe is a notional form of human social organization based on a set of smaller groups (known as bands), having temporary or permanent political integration, and defined by traditions of common descent, language, culture, and ideology.

A band, in turn is a notional type of human social organization consisting of a small number of people (usually no more than 30 to 50 persons in all) who form a fluid, egalitarian community and cooperate in activities such as subsistence, security, ritual, and care for children and elders.

In modern society, the closest equivalent of band is your extended family.

Meanwhile, "nation" has been defined as a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

You might notice a similarity in the definitions of tribe and nation. A nation can be looked at as a very large tribe. Nationalism can be considered another form of tribalism.
 

screamer2

Idiot Bastardson
In anthropology, a tribe is a notional form of human social organization based on a set of smaller groups (known as bands), having temporary or permanent political integration, and defined by traditions of common descent, language, culture, and ideology.

A band, in turn is a notional type of human social organization consisting of a small number of people (usually no more than 30 to 50 persons in all) who form a fluid, egalitarian community and cooperate in activities such as subsistence, security, ritual, and care for children and elders.

In modern society, the closest equivalent of band is your extended family.

Meanwhile, "nation" has been defined as a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

You might notice a similarity in the definitions of tribe and nation. A nation can be looked at as a very large tribe. Nationalism can be considered another form of tribalism.



"nation" has been defined as a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

Humm..... what would the effect on a "nation" be if it was constantly diluted with people of no common descent, no shared history, no shared culture, AND no shared language?
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Btw, I've noticed an insistence by some to call this thing called Scientology a cult. I'm new around here so I suppose this has been discussed in great detail and at great length somewhere here. It's as if you can just toss aside a point being made because "it's a cult", and stop the discussion right there. For my part, I had no evil or sinister motives for my participation. I wished no one ill will, inside or out. I hoped it could help people. It seems, just in my opinion, that a true cult would exist only where people were knowingly doing something against someone or something, with bad intentions or ill will, with a thought towards some destruction. That wasn't my thought, and seemingly wasn't the thought of the people I knew. It was most certainly my opinion I was involved in something good. I do not think that now.
I think most people's motives for getting involved with scientology were pretty much like yours, there was no intention to do anybody any harm, quite the opposite in fact. From the inside it didn't look like a cult, from the outside it very much does.
 
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Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Humm..... what would the effect on a "nation" be if it was constantly diluted with people of no common descent, no shared history, no shared culture, AND no shared language?
Up until the 1950's or so, what the school systems tried to do is merge new immigrants into the existing nation (the "melting pot" analogy). This could work when the immigrants were mostly European Christians whose children tended to inter-marry, with Polish-Americans marrying Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans, until they were just American-Americans by the third generation.

What we are getting in the US right now, as well as in Europe, are multiple distinct and increasingly mutually-hostile nations, occupying the same territory. That situation, historically, has led to civil war.

Within Scientology, if it had held together and expanded, you would have seen a "Scientology nation", where members married only other Scientologists. This nation would increasingly been global in scope, with members seeing their allegiance being to the Scientology-nation rather than to the country they happened to currently reside in. Much like Islam, where your allegiance is supposed to be to the Muslim community worldwide, rather than to the infidels whose country you might live in.
 
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screamer2

Idiot Bastardson
When I join a particular Linux User Group am I joining a "tribe"?
When I join a FreeBSD Facebook group am I joining a "tribe"?

I don't think that the word "tribe" applies anymore to our modern human world.

Maybe this word would be applicable to ancient separated small hunter-gatherer societies?
When I join a particular Linux User Group am I joining a "tribe"?
When I join a FreeBSD Facebook group am I joining a "tribe"?


Yep.

The shepherd has done called upon ya, son, and he's done come up to ya with a big stick over his broad shoulders that has a crook on one top of one end of it and with two dogs behind him. There are many children in the background, you can see them in the bible pictures. Whatta ya gonna do, punk? You feel lucky? You gonna keep doing something other than microsoft? If it ain't Microsoft[R][SM][TM] it's the devil. And that's the devil with a capital D on it, son. You can feel that devil in yer bones, beating down on yer chest right now, can'tcha, punk? Linux. Bah. You wanna get back into the fold, son. And keep yer head down after that.

Microsoft. It's the way. And the light and the sword. It's the only way.

Microsoft. The only sanctioned way.


This has been a public cervice announcement brought to you by the "Church" of $cientology and the ad council.
 
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