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TRs and The Ganzfeld Effect

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Uncover:

Has you (or anyone else commenting on this thread) actually studied the paper? Or has everyone only read the abstract ?

What exactly is meant by "low light conditions" (which the abstract is highly specific about). Careful reading of the abstract shows only speculation on the part of the authors that a "disassociative state" was actually induced in any of the subjects.

What empirical means of assessing the induction of such a state was used or was it even tested for at all? That is the sort of information that might only be had from studying the full text of this paper.

In other words, drawing a factual conclusion that TR 0 induces a "disassociative state" is unwarranted from this paper's abstract alone.

Using scientific publications one has not fully studied for propaganda purposes is most unwise.

Edit addendum: I suppose I shall now have to hop the train to USC this weekend and access the full text of this paper from there. I'm not keen to pay USD $35 for that privilege from Elsevier.

Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Hey!

My bad...

I'm guilty of "derailing the thread" I suppose.

I view threads the way a jazz band views a tune; the alto sax has something to say with his horn he segues off the melodic line and goes riffing off into a solo and his mates chip in some rhythm harmony and countrpoint until he or she finishes and hands it over or the band leader raps the gavel on him

I don't know if you read my segue post or not Michael but I pointed out that no conclusion about TR0 can be drawn from this study because the subjects were not instructed to do TR0. They were told to gaze into each others eyes
 

Out Effix

Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer
Hey!

My bad...

I'm guilty of "derailing the thread" I suppose.

I view threads the way a jazz band views a tune; the alto sax has something to say with his horn he segues off the melodic line and goes riffing off into a solo and his mates chip in some rhythm harmony and countrpoint until he or she finishes and hands it over or the band leader raps the gavel on him

I don't know if you read my segue post or not Michael but I pointed out that no conclusion about TR0 can be drawn from this study because the subjects were not instructed to do TR0. They were told to gaze into each others eyes
Your goal was thwarted ... CP. We are still on task.

Here is El Ron Hubbard - disguised - due to being wanted by the law for tax evasion...

l-ron-hubbard-photographer.jpg


What do you think about L Ron Hubbard lying about his war record?

What about L Ron the Con lying about his 2nd wife - he lied about having a second wife. I have the video where he lies on camera.

What about L Ron the Con throwing Mary Sue Hubbard under the bus - she went to prison when the criminal con man sent a bunch of Scientologists into the US Govt. offices - broke in to destroy documents regarding his cult?

What do you think about the psych drugs in his system after he died?

What about LRH asking Sarge to "End Cycle" by electrocuting him to death with an E Meter?



Do your research now - your reputation here is at stake.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Co$$$ Sucks OE.

Massively.

OTOH...

Auditing and auditor training are damn good things and I am an auditor

They are optional and if you want to have nothing to do with them it's fine with me and I wish you well and I'm pleased to hear you say you can take care of yourself.

But...

As long as you are here and you and I are conversing I'm going to advise you not to be bamboozled by the antiscilons
 

Out Effix

Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer
Co$$$ Sucks OE.

Massively.

OTOH...

Auditing and auditor training are damn good things and I am an auditor

They are optional and if you want to have nothing to do with them it's fine with me and I wish you well and I'm pleased to hear you say you can take care of yourself.

But...

As long as you are here and you and I are conversing I'm going to advise you not to be bamboozled by the antiscilons
Well, I feel bad for you CP. You are wasting your time auditing. It actually gets people into confusion.

Where is the science of past lives??

There is no proof of past lives - there is absolutely no science behind it.


L Ron Hubbard was supposed to come back at age 21.

Miscavige kept the show on the road by building a huge mansion on the Int Base in Hemit CA. Staffed fully to clean and change all of the fabric each season in the house - they laid clothes out for that ugly fat turd...along with his KOOL ciggs.

The scam worked and kept people thinking "WE COME BACK" - we don't.

LRH did not come back because there is no such thing as past lives that can be proven. Just because a stupid tool like an E Meter is used - does not validate anything except you read a "fart" on the meter and said it was something else. It is totoally subjective. The E Meter is such a scam.

You will run out of PC's - because there is no such thing as CLEAR or OT. Just delusions of grandeur.

Show me 1 fucking clear ! You can't.

So - best of luck on your dwindling spiraling career of auditing.

You may want to do some research on David Mayo. Auditing does not last nor does it really work.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Your goal was thwarted ... CP. We are still on task.

What do you think about L Ron Hubbard lying about his war record?

What about L Ron the Con lying about his 2nd wife - he lied about having a second wife. I have the video where he lies on camera.

What about L Ron the Con throwing Mary Sue Hubbard under the bus - she went to prison when the criminal con man sent a bunch of Scientologists into the US Govt. offices - broke in to destroy documents regarding his cult?

What do you think about the psych drugs in his system after he died?

What about LRH asking Sarge to "End Cycle" by electrocuting him to death with an E Meter?



Do your research now - your reputation here is at stake.
Not only is my reputation at stake here i am tied to said stake and the fire around it is refueled constantly.

I got plenty of buddies who have lied to me about their war records but I don't hold it against them. The truth about Ron's war record is good enough for me. He showed up and he showed up before Pearl Harbor. He stayed for the duration and received an honorable discharge.

If Ron and Sara had a formal wedding ceremony with a marriage liscence it happened before his divorce from Polly. It was not a legal marriage. Moreover that's personal stuff. Ron is a guy Sara is a girl and they had a stormy thing. So fucking what? It's personal.

As far as Operation Snow White is concerned...

BRAVO!!!

BRAVISSIMO BRAVO!!!

I don't think it is crime for a bunch of Americans to infiltrate The Government of The United States. There is no visible linkage but not long after MSH et. al. were prosecuted major reforms were pressed on the jackbooted thugs of the IRS and I believe it was OP Snow White that forced them

BRAVO!!!

BRAVISSIMO BRAVO!!!

The last two items I really don't have sufficient data for pertinent comment.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I feel bad for you CP. You are wasting your time auditing. It actually gets people into confusion.

Where is the science of past lives??

There is no proof of past lives - there is absolutely no science behind it.


L Ron Hubbard was supposed to come back at age 21.

Miscavige kept the show on the road by building a huge mansion on the Int Base in Hemit CA. Staffed fully to clean and change all of the fabric each season in the house - they laid clothes out for that ugly fat turd...along with his KOOL ciggs.

The scam worked and kept people thinking "WE COME BACK" - we don't.

LRH did not come back because there is no such thing as past lives that can be proven. Just because a stupid tool like an E Meter is used - does not validate anything except you read a "fart" on the meter and said it was something else. It is totoally subjective. The E Meter is such a scam.

You will run out of PC's - because there is no such thing as CLEAR or OT. Just delusions of grandeur.

Show me 1 fucking clear ! You can't.

So - best of luck on your dwindling spiraling career of auditing.

You may want to do some research on David Mayo. Auditing does not last nor does it really work.

Well, I feel bad for you CP. You are wasting your time auditing. It actually gets people into confusion.

Where is the science of past lives??

There is no proof of past lives - there is absolutely no science behind it.


L Ron Hubbard was supposed to come back at age 21.

Miscavige kept the show on the road by building a huge mansion on the Int Base in Hemit CA. Staffed fully to clean and change all of the fabric each season in the house - they laid clothes out for that ugly fat turd...along with his KOOL ciggs.

The scam worked and kept people thinking "WE COME BACK" - we don't.

LRH did not come back because there is no such thing as past lives that can be proven. Just because a stupid tool like an E Meter is used - does not validate anything except you read a "fart" on the meter and said it was something else. It is totoally subjective. The E Meter is such a scam.

You will run out of PC's - because there is no such thing as CLEAR or OT. Just delusions of grandeur.

Show me 1 fucking clear ! You can't.

So - best of luck on your dwindling spiraling career of auditing.

You may want to do some research on David Mayo. Auditing does not last nor does it really work.

Well, I feel bad for you CP. You are wasting your time auditing. It actually gets people into confusion.

Where is the science of past lives??

There is no proof of past lives - there is absolutely no science behind it.


L Ron Hubbard was supposed to come back at age 21.

Miscavige kept the show on the road by building a huge mansion on the Int Base in Hemit CA. Staffed fully to clean and change all of the fabric each season in the house - they laid clothes out for that ugly fat turd...along with his KOOL ciggs.

The scam worked and kept people thinking "WE COME BACK" - we don't.

LRH did not come back because there is no such thing as past lives that can be proven. Just because a stupid tool like an E Meter is used - does not validate anything except you read a "fart" on the meter and said it was something else. It is totoally subjective. The E Meter is such a scam.

You will run out of PC's - because there is no such thing as CLEAR or OT. Just delusions of grandeur.

Show me 1 fucking clear ! You can't.

So - best of luck on your dwindling spiraling career of auditing.

You may want to do some research on David Mayo. Auditing does not last nor does it really work.
Well OE it appears you haven't been reading my posts over the years I've been here. I don't do formal model session grade chart auditing and I haven't used an e-meter since I left staff in June 1974. There are times when I shift smoothly into auditor gear and do book one 2WC until something resembling an EP and then I do some sort of improvised HAV. I've gotten an awful lot of good results over many years. Back in 2006 my lifelong best pal died of cancer and I will be forever profoundly grateful to L Ron Hubbard and his colleagues for their work because it enabled me to do something truly wondrous for my buddy while he was dying.

Clear?

I don't know. Is there something which can be named "The Reactive Mind" which can be permanently undone?

I don't know.

I do think a state of "Keyed Out Clear" is a meaningful concept.

OT?

Well, I always put quotation marks on it...

"OT"

YEAH!!! There sho' nuff is sump'n as which we all can call "OT"...

OH YEAH!!!

Big Time sugarplums...


P.S. No. Hubbard was never wanted for tax evasion
 

TheSneakster

More Skeptical Than You
I don't know if you read my segue post or not Michael but I pointed out that no conclusion about TR0 can be drawn from this study because the subjects were not instructed to do TR0. They were told to gaze into each others eyes

Not what I asked. Did you actually study the paper?

Sheila did. I will be doing so tomorrow.

My point is that no valid scientific arguments (either for or against) something may made without diligent study of the scientific publications being cited. An abstract of a scientific publication may or may not be an accurate description of the contents of the paper. It usually does not fully detail the experimental procedure, the method for evaluating the experimental results nor what criterion were used to select the subjects of said experiment.

Arnaldo Lerma was infamous for this type of fake scientific argument based solely upon reading abstracts and then erroneously asserting a given paper applied to this or that aspect of Scientology to which it does not. For instance, the entire "e-meter is addictive because it causes the brain to secrete opiates" false claim of his.

I have no objection to people applying scientific findings to Scientology, provided that is what they are *actually doing*.

Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
email: [email protected]
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011
 

FoTi

Crusader
No OE, I'm most certainly not an OSA operative nor do I consider your trepidation to be paranoid.

I'm interested in you and your well being and it would help if I knew your age. I don't need to know the date and year of your birth (which of course would give OSA a clue) but something like "late twenties" or "mid forties" makes a difference. If you are in your late twenties I might recommend you get a college degree. Mid forties, maybe maybe not.

Many people with college sheepskins have shit jobs though most of them probably make better $$$ than you. And many people w/o diplomas proper doing something they enjoy.

But I certainly recommend that you avoid being bamboozled by the antiscilons who do in fact blow an awful lot of smoke. Hubbard was NOT! "hiding from the law" his last few years. The Law was NOT! pursuing him. There were no outstanding warrants with his name on them and he was in fact a respondent. In 1985 Nibs accused CoS of covering up his father's death and went to court over it. The church responded that he had "gone into seclusion" and the court respected that asking only that they provide evidence of him being alive. Which he did.

And this "Hubbard pushed Mary Sue under a bus" thing is horsecrap. I don't know exactly what happened but if Mary Sue does not claim to have been pushed under a bus no one has any right to make that claim on her behalf and she did not.
CP......I am sick and tired of you holding up LRH to be some fantastic genius and promoting how wonderful he was/is. You keep defending him as if you are a member of the COS.

First you state....."Hubbard is widely alleged to have been a charlatan, a fraud, a chronic liar, a cheat, a thief, a plagiarist, a braggart, a child abuser, a tyrant, a coward, a blasphemer, a devil worshipper, a narcissist, a sadist, a sociopath, a madman, a psychopath, a weasel, a skunk, a scamp, a scoundrel, a scalawag, a skullduggery, a rapscallion, a bounder, a cad, a third-rate author and a walking yak festival", as you put it in your book....."The Amendment, Revised, Corrected and Refined", which I recently purchased on Amazon.

Then you state in your book..."L Ron Hubbard was and is a philosopher. Moreover he is incontestably the most famous philosopher of the twentieth century and arguably the recent century's most influential. His body of work, incongruously couched in the context of the wildest most bizarre cosmology ever conceived by man, clarifies, refines and expands mankind's knowledge and understanding of the mind and spirit and he produced and promulgated techniques based thereon known to improve mental function, spiritual awareness and to increase ability and weltanschauung and to reduce distress and disability particularly when resulting from physical and/or psychological trauma."

(for anyone who doesn't know what this word means in the above paragraph)
Weltanschauung | Definition of Weltanschauung by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weltanschauung
The German word Weltanschauung literally means "world view"; it combines "Welt" ("world") with "Anschauung" ("view"), which ultimately derives from the Middle High German verb schouwen ("to look at" or "to see").

I find your idea for the amendment interesting, .....but you didn't stick to the subject of the amendment itself. (Which for those of you who don't have the book or who haven't read it, the amendment has to do with the subject of abortion and CP talks about Laura DeCrescenza and her battle with the COS over her forced abortion when she was a teenager and used her as an example in what he is talking about. I have no problem with this, by the way.)

But....You had to bring into your book, which is supposed to be about an amendment, the subject of L Ron Hubbard, which has nothing to do with the amendment, as far as I can see .... and even though you talk about his ALLEGED despicable character, you then go on to extol what you consider to be his virtues and paint him to be Mr Wonderful. From what you wrote, and I quoted it above, you appear to me to be promoting L Ron Hubbard in your book.

You completely leave out of your book the damage L Ron Hubbard's "tech" and his influence has done to some individuals as well as whole families, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, financially, and educationally. It's as if you don't even see these things, or you don't want to believe that it could be true, or you intentionally want to suck others into getting involved in Scientology and the technology of L Ron Hubbard.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Not what I asked. Did you actually study the paper?

Sheila did. I will be doing so tomorrow.

My point is that no valid scientific arguments (either for or against) something may made without diligent study of the scientific publications being cited. An abstract of a scientific publication may or may not be an accurate description of the contents of the paper. It usually does not fully detail the experimental procedure, the method for evaluating the experimental results nor what criterion were used to select the subjects of said experiment.

Arnaldo Lerma was infamous for this type of fake scientific argument based solely upon reading abstracts and then erroneously asserting a given paper applied to this or that aspect of Scientology to which it does not. For instance, the entire "e-meter is addictive because it causes the brain to secrete opiates" false claim of his.

I have no objection to people applying scientific findings to Scientology, provided that is what they are *actually doing*.

Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
email: [email protected]
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011

Glanced at it Sneaksy

Just enough to see that while it might not be possible to tell which is which if confronted with a photo of two test subjects and another of two people doing TR-0 the experiment doesn't have a damn thing to do with TR-0
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I guess we are doomed to have our very own version of Holocaust Deniers.

Hitler made an innovative affordable car, improved assembly line manufacturing and made great inroads into the fields of chemistry, genetics and public relations.
DOES ANYBODY ON THIS BOARD EVER READ AND UNDERSTAND A FUCKING WORD I SAY?

Jee-yay-ziss!!!

I'm a serious critic of CoS myself; deeply concerned about abuses

Hubbard was no Hitler. He was rightly privileged. He pushed the envelope a bit but not that bad.

We've kept the Volkswagon

We damn sure best keep the auditing
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
When I was in scientology I thought Hubbard was the most ethical being on the planet and the most OT. Now that I'm allowed to find out the truth about him I can't understand how anyone can still think he was something special.

Here is Barbara Klowden talking about him. She was his lover while he was still married to Sara, the wife he denied marrying. Barbara is a qualified psychologist and she says Hubbard had a narcissistic personality, was a manic depressive and paranoid. She says he developed dianetics and scientology as a way to handle his own case. At around the 15 minute mark she explains how she used her skills to help him get over writer's block and severe anxiety and this led to him developing the tone scale and Chart Of Human Evaluation. Just another example of someone else being the unacknowledged source of the so-called discoveries of L. Ron Hubbard.

Neat video.

I don't have earbuds in the library so I have to read out the closed caption but this is a video I want to listen to in full.


I never plugged in to CoS version of "Ron".

I took a strong interest in his work but I had a capacity for critical thinking which I used all along.

He is still, for all his flaws a fascinating individual who produced, in conjunction with colleagues a remarkable body of work

From which I personally have derived rather EXTRAORDINARY!!! benefit
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
DOES ANYBODY ON THIS BOARD EVER READ AND UNDERSTAND A FUCKING WORD I SAY?

Jee-yay-ziss!!!

I'm a serious critic of CoS myself; deeply concerned about abuses

Hubbard was no Hitler. He was rightly privileged. He pushed the envelope a bit but not that bad.

We've kept the Volkswagon

We damn sure best keep the auditing
Dear Birdy,

The problem here is not that people are not reading what you write, they are objecting to what you write. That is what you are not getting. You think that if only we would read what you write we would agree. We do read it and we don't agree, at all.

You give Hubbard a free pass on on the evil things he did because "he created the wonderful Dianetics and Scientology". That's the problem. That's your problem. You believe that all the evil comes from the Church of Scientology, not Hubbard.

None of that is true. While Hubbard did kind of create Dianetics and Scientology, both those "technologies" have failed to produce ANY of the promised miracles Hubbard specifically promised. Protip: Failing to produce the promised results does NOT equal "wonderful".

Second, all the evil of the Church of Scientology was created and continues based on Hubbard's policy letters. The evil is directly because of Hubbard's policies. Good people in Scientology are forced to do great evil because of Hubbard's evil policies.

Maybe, just maybe, a wonderful technology would forgive great evil -- but that isn't Hubbard and that isn't Dianetics/Scientology. As I've said before, the small amount of good in the "tech" is too small and the evil is too great.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Neat video.

I don't have earbuds in the library so I have to read out the closed caption but this is a video I want to listen to in full.


I never plugged in to CoS version of "Ron".

I took a strong interest in his work but I had a capacity for critical thinking which I used all along.

He is still, for all his flaws a fascinating individual who produced, in conjunction with colleagues a remarkable body of work

From which I personally have derived rather EXTRAORDINARY!!! benefit
CP...I don't know about your library, but where I live, the library has earbuds at the desk, that one can buy and keep, for $1.00.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dear Birdy,

The problem here is not that people are not reading what you write, they are objecting to what you write. That is what you are not getting. You think that if only we would read what you write we would agree. We do read it and we don't agree, at all.

You give Hubbard a free pass on on the evil things he did because "he created the wonderful Dianetics and Scientology". That's the problem. That's your problem. You believe that all the evil comes from the Church of Scientology, not Hubbard.

None of that is true. While Hubbard did kind of create Dianetics and Scientology, both those "technologies" have failed to produce ANY of the promised miracles Hubbard specifically promised. Protip: Failing to produce the promised results does NOT equal "wonderful".

Second, all the evil of the Church of Scientology was created and continues based on Hubbard's policy letters. The evil is directly because of Hubbard's policies. Good people in Scientology are forced to do great evil because of Hubbard's evil policies.

Maybe, just maybe, a wonderful technology would forgive great evil -- but that isn't Hubbard and that isn't Dianetics/Scientology. As I've said before, the small amount of good in the "tech" is too small and the evil is too great.
Neither Dianetics nor Scientology live up to the associated hyperbole

For you...

Apparently got very little from the study

I got much including gains which apparently can be termed "OT"

Hubbard and his work have been under assault since square one. Policies for defense are a necessary evil. Hubbard as he lived was Da Man! and there is much policy which can be viewed as tolerable in support of Da Man! No one else can ever be Da Man! and DM is usurping privilege was Ron's and Ron's alone.

The "evils" can be pretty rank at times but if Ron and/or CoS were truly guilty of "great evils" Paulette Cooper would long since be defunct

Still, yes, I certainly agree the evil is too great (And not entirely the fault of the policy. More often evil ensues from NOT following policy) but personally many of us find the good to be large
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
CP...I don't know about your library, but where I live, the library has earbuds at the desk, that one can buy and keep, for $1.00.
CP has been reaping the benefits of scientology (makes the able more able) for many years, but I'm sad to say I believe he is homeless and probably can't afford a buck for earbuds.
 

TheSneakster

More Skeptical Than You
CP has been reaping the benefits of scientology (makes the able more able) for many years, but I'm sad to say I believe he is homeless and probably can't afford a buck for earbuds.
So you go with a classic Ad Hominem (combined with a Straw Man) personal attack for your "rebuttal". Why am I not surprised ?

Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
ex-Sea Org Member and Declared SP
email: [email protected]
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Neither Dianetics nor Scientology live up to the associated hyperbole

For you...

Apparently got very little from the study

I got much including gains which apparently can be termed "OT"

Hubbard and his work have been under assault since square one. Policies for defense are a necessary evil. Hubbard as he lived was Da Man! and there is much policy which can be viewed as tolerable in support of Da Man! No one else can ever be Da Man! and DM is usurping privilege was Ron's and Ron's alone.

The "evils" can be pretty rank at times but if Ron and/or CoS were truly guilty of "great evils" Paulette Cooper would long since be defunct

Still, yes, I certainly agree the evil is too great (And not entirely the fault of the policy. More often evil ensues from NOT following policy) but personally many of us find the good to be large
I like you Birdy, I really do. But....

No. You see, the whole point of the "technology", according to Ron, was that "it works". It was supposed to be absolutely True. It was, Ron said, 100% Standard. That's Ron's whole "breakthrough". It isn't and you obviously know that from what you say right here.

Some people believe they got some gains while doing Scientology and/or Dianetics. A whole lot of people didn't -- no matter how many "correction lists", "reviews", "redos", "new", "expanded" sessions they submitted to. No one got what was explicitly promised for "Clear". No one got "Total cause over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought" which was what Ron promised as "OT". That's NOT a "technology", that's NOT a "breakthrough" that's NOT science and that's NOT any kind of "standard". If it works, it works rarely and with mediocre, temporary results.

You, sitting in a library because you don't have a computer, sometimes "going off" so badly that you have to be banned, believe you are "OT". Knowing that, my thinking that I can reason with you makes me a bit of a fool, doesn't it?
 
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