ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

TRs and The Ganzfeld Effect

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by uncover, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    You may be right, although on the high seas in international waters, he may have been more of a tyrant. I knew two messengers who fetched for him on a daily basis, and I heard no mention of any kind of tyrannical behavior. They were young adults, not kids, so it seems they would have occasionally felt his wrath had it been as bad and constant as Bill needs to believe.

    John Mac's description of him was more comical: "the bastards have betrayed me!" (re his crew's lack of piloting skill). Some of John's stories made LRH seem like Colonel Klink on Hogan's Heroes. For example, he broke his wrist pounding the table in anger, then made his RJ 67 tape about how he barely survived the wall of fire, emerging with a broken wrist :)
    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  2. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Yes, Steve Jobs is an excellent example. I understand the composer Wagner used to jump up and down in fits, like a 4-year-old, when he was upset, typical genius behavior :)
  3. Dave B.

    Dave B. Maximus Ultimus Mostimus

    The Hubbard worship is a strange one. It's a mental sickness, if not that certainly a mental weakness.

    The outward effects of Hubbard, the paramilitary S.O., his treating people like shit, the spying, the lying, etc etc etc are all manifestations of his own sick inner mental landscape.
  4. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    The stages a True Believer goes through as the abuses of Hubbard become undeniable:
    • Didn't happen
    • It's mostly lies and rumors
    • It wasn't that bad
    • He had very good reasons for doing it
    • He was a genius and so must be forgiven
    • The good outweighs the bad
    • You're all stupid -- making a big fuss over nothing
    • Oh, shut up! Let it go! He's dead! Forget it!
    I'm sure there are many more stages, since they never just admit the truth.
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Are you trying to rerail the thread i've so vastly derailed?


    Good Idea!!!

    Will all of my deeply cherished and highly respected foils please decamp to the "Verdict" thread


    once again...

    the cited experiment has no bearing on TR's because they weren't doing TR's!

    With TR-0 the student is directed to "Be there comfortably"

    The test subjects were told to gaze into each others eyes
  6. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm NOT going to be judgemental concerning another person's inner landscape and I question the propriety of others doing so.

    Questioning the propriety of actual actions is different.

    Elron certainly did many things that I ain'y crazy about but then I"m not someone who constructed a globe spanning multi billion dollar enterprise which, given the nature of this temporal plane and it's frequently unruly biped inhabitants is an enterprise which seems likely to entail some unsightly aspects.
  7. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Your ability to justify Hubbard's horrible actions continues to amaze me.

    The reason Hubbard lied, defrauded huge numbers of people, abused people, promised miraculous results he knew he couldn't deliver, created a highly abusive Sea Org, created the highly abusive "RPF", split families --- on and on --- is because of the "enterprise"?????

    Add that to the list of never ending bullshit excuses by people who can't confront reality. >ding<
    Dave B. and dchoiceisalwaysrs like this.
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I am NOT a "true believer" and I do NOT fit Eric Hoffer's profile. I do find it interesting to note his book "The True Believer" was first published in 1951 then quite timely in understanding the then recent fascist mass movement and the then current communist mass movement but just in time to inocculate the general public against the potential ills of a dianetic mass movement.

    Moving to line item

    Many charges against Hubbard ARE pure fabrication as I have repeatedly noted

    There are a plethora of lies and rumors about Hubbard

    Antiscientology agitprop commonly exaggerates and embellishes questionable actions

    Hubbard did many things which I do not approve or endorse but were yet not unprovoked

    He was a genius and the beneficial aspects of his work are of surpassing value (as someone whose father's life was shortened by repeated ECT and was badly injured by gross malpractice by shrinks himself would know) regardless of whether you forgive him or not


    You're all people I love, respect and who's company and discourse I enjoy

    Maybe he's dead and maybe he isn't
  9. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hubbard was quite careful to avoid outwardly claiming that the TR drills would result in "exteriorization". I think this was part of the cleverly constructed "boil the frog slowly" approach. Just create the conditions for a dissociative state and let it be commonly understood to be a proof positive that he has a workable scientific approach to Buddhism like enlightenment. It was a brilliant strategy and Scientology might have had legs if he kept things more conservative but he had to get further and further out there all the way to druggy BTs and then condemn conservatism itself as a source of PTSness in an effort to create a strawman SP in defense of his being so far out there.

    There have been other non-Scientology programs that tried to explore this dissociate state "by any other name" and I expect it was known to Crowley. Hell, even the Whirling Dervishes were onto it.
    Bill likes this.
  10. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I did not go into a "disassociative state" in 2011 in Boston when I exteriorized first into the office of the general manager of the Kansas City Royals and then the office of the team owner to initiate my three year program to reverse the fortunes of a team which had gone 26 years without making the postseason racking up only one winning season.

    And three years later they were in an excellent World Series losing game 7 with the tying run on third base.

    And just to frost the cake...

    Next year they won

    Of course I had by then abandoned my practice project and was working on a three year program to get a crown for the Chicago Cubs who had not made The Fall Classic since they fell to Detroit's T-N-T rotation in 1945 and had not won since Teddy Roosevelt was in The White House...
  11. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Only to you.....
  12. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Yes....he did construct a multi billion dollar enterprise for himself by promising (a Bridge to Full OT and Total Freedom), which he never could fulfill. He lied to people to make himself rich. He made the Bridge this complicated thing whereby people had to buy more and more services to get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and when they got there they found out it was fake. By then he had their money in his pocket

    LRH was the Wizard of Oz in plain clothing. And the COS is the Land of Oz for those who don't know what else to do with their lives.

    LRH created a fantasy in the form of a "religion" and made himself a millionaire.
    ThetanExterior and Bill like this.
  13. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Judging by your reaction, it appears that my list is quite accurate. These, and more, are what you, and the others, use to excuse, justify and discount all the bad that Hubbard did. Thanks for verifying the list for me.
  14. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Or you can believe what a old timer / indi told me about Hubbard when I suggested he lied frequently - "Oh that type of personality is prone to exaggeration."

    Birdy or Clay Pidgeon - What in your mind makes him this: "He was a genius and the beneficial aspects of his work are of surpassing value" Have you gone up the bridge to verify that in your own mind? I have done the BC and audited solo on OT 7 and the only part of your statement I find true is that he was a genius at manipulating gullible people into believing his tech was valid.

    ThetanExterior likes this.
  15. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think there is a lot of merit to what Ralph Waldo Emerson said: "Character is higher than intellect...". So we have rather intelligent individuals who are disturbed characters espousing all sorts of nonsense.
  16. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Perhaps a component of what causes the weirdness that can come with both the Ganzfield experiment and the TRs is the narrowed focus which involves shutting down or denying normal mental responses and this allows a sort of state in which imagination can run wild creating delusions of all sorts.
    TheOriginalBigBlue likes this.
  17. Dave B.

    Dave B. Maximus Ultimus Mostimus

    You say that like Hubbard was the only person to ever critisize or decry ECT. He might, or certainly his deluded followers might want you to think that.

    I don't get this "Hubbard invented everything" "or was the first to....." aspect of $cientology. An Eagle Scout who was bustin' broncs at 4 months old or whatever. PR bullshit. Yeah I know the standard response, that's his followers doing and saying all that Hubbard never would tell tall tales about himself.... rotflmfao, uh huh, right. Like I've mentioned many times before Hubbard's ego was the size of a blackhole star and will suck any particle into it within 7.23 parsecs distance.

    There is a lot of truth about Hubbard out there too. You should read it if you have the stomach for it?

    Hubbard didn't even invent the best parts of $cientology. I recommended the Sole Source Myth thread.
  18. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Was this your own belief or a suggestion to add to the list of stupid justifications that True Believers use to discount revelations of Hubbard's very abusive behavior?
  19. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    If you have confidence in the validity of your statements why do you find it necessary to insult people that disagree with your statements?
  20. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Are you sure you don't have to make hubbard ok in your mind because you owe him for your brilliant insight into life?