Truth is a Pathless Land

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
I like this guy.


Truth is a Pathless Land
by J. Krishnamurti

The Dissolution of the Order of the Star

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion.



We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
I like this guy.


Truth is a Pathless Land
by J. Krishnamurti

The Dissolution of the Order of the Star

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion.



We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.

This seems to be very much in the spirit of Tao.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Krishnamurti was a live, sentient human being. L. Ron Hubbard was not, just a conjured entity with no life or determinism of its own.
 

AnonLover

Patron Meritorious
Krishnamurti was a live, sentient human being. L. Ron Hubbard was not, just a conjured entity with no life or determinism of its own.

Krishnamurti was poor dumb kid, who was exploited, manipulated and pawned off at the embodiment of the light bearer on earth by the evil cult blavatski left behind.

When the moment arrived for him to claim to the throne of born-again cult leader made for him by deceit and lies, he bailed and wanted no parts of it. And then when he realized that fateful decision left him bereft of the finer things in life that he came to take for granted, he suddenly sung a different tune and started trying to fulfill the false prophecies laid at his feet as a child.

Everything he wrote, was in the context of telling people what he thought they wanted to hear. He was never widely held as an ascended master, aside from the theosophist outcasts that sucked up to him because Bailey cast them aside when she had no further use for them. The only thing he mastered, was the art of double-speak and verbal tap dancing.
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
Krishnamurti was poor dumb kid, who was exploited, manipulated and pawned off at the embodiment of the light bearer on earth by the evil cult blavatski left behind.

When the moment arrived for him to claim to the throne of born-again cult leader made for him by deceit and lies, he bailed and wanted no parts of it. And then when he realized that fateful decision left him bereft of the finer things in life that he came to take for granted, he suddenly sung a different tune and started trying to fulfill the false prophecies laid at his feet as a child.

Everything he wrote, was in the context of telling people what he thought they wanted to hear. He was never widely held as an ascended master, aside from the theosophist outcasts that sucked up to him because Bailey cast them aside when she had no further use for them. The only thing he mastered, was the art of double-speak and verbal tap dancing.

Figures.
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
yeah honey, i was sooooo disappointed it was you who posted this.

but i still <3 ya for the hard ass that you are :eyeroll:

I didn't know. I had only read that one article by him and really didn't look any further. I truly appreciate the update.

Hugs,
 

AnonLover

Patron Meritorious
I didn't know. I had only read that one article by him and really didn't look any further.

Altho the chapter on Hubbard in the following book is one of the lamest critical works I ever read (seems almost as if it was added as a half-assed afterthought & culled from other works with no real research), all the other chapters in this classic mediation-cult-debunking text are spot on and absolutely excellent.

Here's the chapter on Krishnamurti
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/krishnamurti.asp
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS

AnonLover

Patron Meritorious

y/w - and FWIW, that book comes with my highest regards (despite the sucky chapter on Hubbard)

I've crosschecked all of the citations within that text, extensively. Falk (the author) was/is truly the consummate "battle worn field expert" on the subject of eastern-philosophy inspired meditation cults. And alot of what is now taken as common knowledge on the subject, was first revealed by him in that book and initially taken with much grains of salt. But when others followed in his footsteps, they came to realize the hard way just how much hands-on homework he had actually done.

Thus i give him a pass on the uberly lame ball dropping Hubbard chapter... i take it instead as being indicative that Hubbard's claim that his teachings were compatible with eastern-philosophy obviously didnt pan out when Falk looked at it. and rather than resort to just mocking Hubbard for lack of substance - Falk just let the lack substance speak for itself.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Oh, yes. There is a whole thread on the subject in which you never answered the fuckin' question. :duh:

Ah, so true!

Possibly Mystic, having had drunk of the Scientology kool-aide so deeply those many many years ago is STILL MANIFESTING VERY OLD HUBBARD CONDITIONING, conditioning that was thought to have been addressed and jettisoned MANY years ago. Which conditioning? Standard Scientology PR and OSA "handlings": NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION.

In fact, do everything else BUT answer the question! :duh:

Mystic, make the noble effort, break free FINALLY of that last final vestige of Hubbardian ("tuplic") conditioning, and as hard as it might be, sit down, and calmly, just ANSWER THE FUCKIN' QUESTION!!!!!! :grouch:

Or, as for some people, does "answering the question" feel too much like the ritual of auditing, where on MUST "answer the auditing question", and thus out of some strong reaction against all things Scientology THAT whole process of "answering anything" is now on a major RESIST?
++++++++
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Krishnamurti was a live, sentient human being. L. Ron Hubbard was not, just a conjured entity with no life or determinism of its own.

I disagree. Both were live sentient human beings who sometimes came out with ideas and sometimes did things they should not have done.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I've been enjoying doing some non Scn philosophy type reading. It feels good. I mean, I could enjoy reading a Scn book, but I'd want it to be even apart from the FZ. Just on my own. But at this point, no Scn. It's (ancient) history books, and I just finished one on Celtic shamanism, and am now reading Complete Idiot's Guide to Buddhism AND Milarepa's works. It feels good, you guys! And I'm guessing that Pooks is having some fun with her reading, too!!!
 
Ah, so true!

Possibly Mystic, having had drunk of the Scientology kool-aide so deeply those many many years ago is STILL MANIFESTING VERY OLD HUBBARD CONDITIONING, conditioning that was thought to have been addressed and jettisoned MANY years ago. Which conditioning? Standard Scientology PR and OSA "handlings": NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION. ...

Why is it that every common human failing ever demonstrated by an ex-scientologist is instantly seized upon by many critics as clear evidence of 'HUBBARD CONDITIONING'? That is completely @ss backwards. Prior involvement with the cult of scientology is better evidence of the widespread human tendency to behave irrationally than is the tendency to behave irrationally evidence of involvement with the church.

Is such a response yet another indicator of the attempt to 'make self right' by 'making another wrong'? :whistling:


Mark A. Baker
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Why is it that every common human failing ever demonstrated by an ex-scientologist is instantly seized upon by many critics as clear evidence of 'HUBBARD CONDITIONING'? That is completely @ss backwards. Prior involvement with the cult of scientology is better evidence of the widespread human tendency to behave irrationally than is the tendency to behave irrationally evidence of involvement with the church.

Is such a response yet another indicator of the attempt to 'make self right' by 'making another wrong'? :whistling:

Mark A. Baker

No, actually Mark, I was just "playing with ideas". I was having a bit of fun and kidding around with "commonly accepted significances". It was mainly a joke to and for Mystic! :confused2:

But, if it helps "make sense of it all" by somehow imagining that I need to "make myself right" to exist here on this board, then you can entertain that notion if you like.

I am simply tossing the ball back and forth with Mystic, trying (and possibly failing) to be "funny along the way. :unsure:

You obviously did NOT get the "humor". That in itself is an interesting observation.

+++++++++
 
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