Try getting the return of $ from FSO for a partially used intensive - HA

_brian

WogRevert
Hai ya and what did I expect, eh?

**

tl;dr version: Asked flag (FSO) to return the value of about $3+K of unused auditing hours of an uncompleted intensive, went through CVB form assisted by flag legal dir Sarah Heller; after about 5 months <gavel smack> CVB request DENIED </gavel smack>

**

While it was underway, I didn't want to respond or contribute to any of the recent postings about refunds/repayments, telling about what I had going on just in case it would have been used against me, if and you know what I mean. But I do thank a few members on the board that I PM'ed asking some odd questions, seeking advice for my particular scenario of unused auditing hours. Though, by the way, I did receive a repayment of advance payments, about $17K, from the Sacramento org in 2005 so I had a little experience and somewhat knew the drill.

Well..., the end of November 09 I wrote a letter to the Flag treasury sec. I sent it USPS first class mail then thought better of it, maybe thinking Flag would just lose the letter saying they never got it? and then sent it again by way of priority mail w/delivery confirmation (for tracking purposes), I also knew scn doesn't accept certified letters. Flag did get the first letter anyways, as that was the one Sarah responded to.

It was a strongly worded letter demanding that it be determined how many hours I had left/unused in my pc folder when I bought 3 intensives (as that was what the tech est. was in Sacramento from a tours D of P) of *Flag only**case cracking* auditing (which ended up being Life Repair and objectives = WTF, Flag only?!? and which I already did twice prior at my mission then org and actually got minimal but better results then than at flag :duh:), which I then arrived at flag in 1996 (of course they tried to get $50K :omg: more from me from a new tech est. of the same things I told the flag D of P) and then only used just over 2 intensives. I was certain that I some accommodation $ left on account also to be determined.

I insisted on having returned or being repaid the $ value balance of all of the hours undelivered, as I considered or contended that the value of these unused individual hours to be the same as *advance payments* on account. I also mentioned I would not do a CVB form as there was nothing that was going to correct or alter my determination. I gave them the usual 7 day time frame to pay up and closed the letter with a: "Delaying and failure to comply with this demand will result in actions on my part that may be of "PR" difficulties for the Church of Scientology", statement.

There was a little more to my letter, but because it was considered a *threat*, it ended up with the flag legal dir Sarah Heller and she emailed me saying "I do not correspond regarding such matters by e-mail. Do you have a fax machine?" and then she sent a certified letter pertaining to my letter, I had given my PO Box and email addy to correspond with.

Initially the good news was that I indeed had $278.35 of unused accommodations funds Sarah was willing to return to me in exchange for signing the ole release, waiver and writ of expulsion form. But she stressed she would attempt to assist me, but I "must be willing to listen to what she has to say and drop my needless antagonism". In a return email, I appolozied for my strong demands and 'toned' down my communications being as friendly (I think) as I could.

Also in the letter she explained that; "...you signed enrollment forms which included information on how to go about getting your donations returned and under what circumstances you could do so. In neither case is baseless threats required, and in fact you agreed in your enrollment forms that if you got third parties involved, you forfeit your request. That is in addition to the fact that we have no legal obligation to return any funds, but do so based on Church policy." On the enrollment form at some point later I asked for a copy of the one I signed and noticed that flag didn't sign it to indicate I was approved to be accepted for services, and I looked into (PM'ed a couple people) what that might mean, but didn't take it much farther.

Over the next few months, we proceeded to exchange about 50 :yes: email correspondences (half each way), a couple faxes and a few more certified letters, lol, from flag, and a couple more priority mail w/delivery confirmation from me to Sarah. There was some time delays due to me mulling over my next actions or communications all through our exchanges, a couple times she would email and ask - waz sup, and I did the same when I didn't hear back after about a week or so. There were also a couple of misunderstandings (on her part) that I had to re explain and smooth over with her to keep it going.

So.., I first declined the offer of signing the release/waiver and being paid only the accommodations funds on account to "settle all claims" yada blah blah.

I tried a couple different angles trying to make my case and argued over the lrh *Refund/Repayment* policies, I know what the policies say about starting or finishing a service and the 3 month rule, but I still contended my stance on the value of each individual auditing hour as the same as having money on account and trying to get the money returned as a *repayment*, Sarah wasn't buying it and month after month was going by.

After being told nothing else could be done and even though I originally said that I wouldn't do the CVB form, at first because I was arguing my hours were advance payments and basically because I wasn't going to go to flag to go through the next to impossible steps one has to do with each *terminal* and especially the step of *handling* me with what ever actions to try to get me to drop my request, things worked its way around and I said to go ahead and do the CVB form and Sarah said she would do the steps needed to be done at flag.

Sarah got the terminals on the routing form to provide the information needed on the CVB form and then sent me the copy (besides the accommodations, it was determined I had 8 1/4 hours of the intensive unused/undelivered, a little less but close to what I remembered) and then all I had to do was the steps I could do here; mark refused on the chaplain handling step 2.a., write out the statements and notarize step 2.e.1. initial them and send it back and she would send it on to the CVB. She also asked me to write a statement ("without any unnecessary additives, threats, etc.") as to why I believe I should be given the value for the hours back as it was not per policy, so I did.

I mailed back the form a few weeks ago and last Wednesday, Sarah emailed me saying the CVB request was denied, and did I still want to receive the accommodations funds? All I had to do was sign the release/waiver she sent earlier if I still had it or she'd send a new one.

I had reserved hopes of getting a little of my costly and wasted Flag money back, and certainly could use it for medical needs. And even though a couple hundred $ is better than nothing, I haven't answered back yet.

When I thought it was dead months ago, just before I said to do the CVB form, I told Sarah that I had started writing up a letter, which I had, to mail to different Government agencies, IRS, US Attorney General, State AG, BBB, etc. explaining the *rip off* policies of a so called church that *sells* it's *services* the way it does, but didn't finish the letter, but Sarah said she's dealt with the Gov. before and it's never resulted in anyone getting a return any faster and mostly delays it more, etc.

But now I'm maybe considering (though I'm pretty mentally exhausted to try and continue) doing a writeup of my experience and sending it, besides the Government agencies mentioned, to a few choice, or any and everyone, interested media outlets to add to the exposé subject matter lately being published or aired regarding the cult of $cientology. And maybe there are others who are in the same boat of only using partial intensives or not being able to finish an expensive course and then pass up the 3 month *refund* rule when one finds they no longer wish to participate as a member of the church, etc. and then to have to just write a few thousand $ off because a scamming criminal organization has a *policy* saying your money is worth nothing if you only use one minute (could happen) of an $5+K intensive and then can't complete it and 3 months or more later and one wants to move on.

I had a lot more to rant about but hopefully my information is insightful or helpful.

:cheers2: anyways.
Brian
 

freethinker

Sponsor
When did you sign the enrollment agreement?

They have changed them over the years and if you signed one before the latest it would be invalid by being changed. That is the nature of contract law
 

_brian

WogRevert
Thanks GreyWolf :)

When did you sign the enrollment agreement?

They have changed them over the years and if you signed one before the latest it would be invalid by being changed. That is the nature of contract law

That's interesting freethinker. I signed my enrollment agreement Sept. 1996 and the copyright on the form is 1996. The form has a point covering the refund/repayment policy. I don't know if the one prior would have allowed returns of money on partial intensives? or what a later one may do to void the contractual agreement on this one?

Brian
 

FoTi

Crusader
Brian, what was the reason for not completing the intensive or not using up the rest of the hours? Did they deny you service or did you just decide to leave or what?
 

freethinker

Sponsor
They changed it in 2000.
Thanks GreyWolf :)



That's interesting freethinker. I signed my enrollment agreement Sept. 1996 and the copyright on the form is 1996. The form has a point covering the refund/repayment policy. I don't know if the one prior would have allowed returns of money on partial intensives? or what a later one may do to void the contractual agreement on this one?

Brian
 

AlphOhm

Traveler of time/space
if it is an L's intensive, you probably signed an agreement that it was non-refundable and only to be used for L's services...


else, give them hell :moon:
 

_brian

WogRevert
Brian, what was the reason for not completing the intensive or not using up the rest of the hours? Did they deny you service or did you just decide to leave or what?

Hi FoTi.

I set aside 2 weeks to go to flag to do the 3 intensives as that is what I was initially told I needed to do the service. It was going to be a strain on the finances to start with to be away from making money, besides the cost of paying for the service.

I spent a week in ethics and handling a medical situation. Then it took into the 3rd week to get to where I was basically finishing life repair and the objectives, and to stay longer I had to buy more accommodations straining the finances more, I really had to get back home to start working again.

Of course they wanted to start me on something else with the hours, but I wasn't going to be able to buy any more hours to finish probably arc straightwire and I just couldn't stay. Besides I was already seriously disappointed (and upset about the disappointment) with the service I just received. So I just had to get home.

That's the best I can explain it. :)

Brian
 

_brian

WogRevert
They changed it in 2000.

Thanks.

I guess I would need to get more information to know what to do if anything, besides the basic lrh policies on refund/repayments that say what they say, as I was told with my arguments with Sarah and why I was denied my claim. :confused2: :)

Brian
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Have you tried small claims court, since it's less than $5000? The "common sense" solution is to pro-rate the intensive and repay the unused money. I attended a dozen Judge Judy filmings when I lived near to the studio on Sunset. One of the cases was a high-class established dating agency, where the client paid something like $5000 for maybe 7 compatible dates. There was a big spat after 3 or 4 dates, and the client wanted his money back. Judge Judy didn't get into the nitty-gritty of whether the dates were of good quality or not, merely pro-rated the promised number of dates against the number delivered.

Paul
 

_brian

WogRevert
Hey Paul.

Yes, it has crossed my mind possibly do a small claims action, especially after getting the denied cvb claim. I remember (haven't searched on the board for it yet) a thread awhile back too of someone going though small claims on a couple of refund claims or something like that, I think maybe in Las Vegas. I agree with you about the common sense solution of pro rating and is partly what I was arguing with as the *right* *good PR* and *in exchange* thing to do.

It would take a little time and I'd certainly have to muster up enough of an argument that would hopefully get the court to see and override some church representatives counter claims or what ever they would do to try to stop my claim.

That would be quite funny in a way to have a Judge Judy spot to hash it out :) just doing a normal court action would be quite stressful or intense on the nerves for me though.

Got more mulling things over to do now.

Brian

edit: just found the thread about someone suing for expenses with Phoenix org.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hey Paul.

Yes, it has crossed my mind possibly do a small claims action, especially after getting the denied cvb claim.

What I remember from all my JJ attendances was the importance of dox. If you got the dox saying they haven't delivered what you paid for, I don't see how they will win. The judge must know what slimebags they are as it is common knowledge. Remember it wouldn't be a criminal court — the case is decided on the preponderance of evidence, not "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

It's the little guy with the dox versus the huge corrupt slimy corporation with millions of dollars and lots of legal mumbo-jumbo fine print but no sense of decency or fair play at all. I remember the report of the outcome of that small claims case here too. AFAIK the org got its accounts frozen until they paid. :)

Paul
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Brian,

I agree with Paul – check out the small claims court.

Failing that, make a big and very public fuss. Write to the media, political representatives, consumer groups, anti-scam groups – everyone you can think of. Even consider picketing your local org with a big sign. Talk to a lawyer. Make it perfectly clear that you will cause them a lot of trouble until they pay up. They hate bad publicity and the threat of legal action. You have to make it better for them to pay you than to not pay.

And if nothing else, you will have the satisfaction of showing them up as the crooks they are.

Axiom142
 

_brian

WogRevert
Thanks Paul, I did get what you meant about small claims and criminal court :)

Were you blowing from post and going to JJ shows, hmmm? :wink2:

Not to give away any strategy or give heads up to the cult :confused2: :coolwink: but;

Though it's not an impossibility, I'm not sure what kind of dox I can round up or provide and other than additional explanations of how one is PR'd, propagandized and basically deceived and lied to, etc.

So far, an example that I mentioned in my OP and is listed on my flag invoice is what I paid for; "Flag-only case resolution rundowns" it ended up being the case cracker rundown. What I ended up getting was "life repair and objectives" that I could and did get back in Sacramento previously, so it wasn't "flag-only".

I also have a couple promo pieces from that time, one based on an lrh reference "THERE ARE NO FAILED CASES" HCOB 26 October 1975 and I read it and I got the idea and was under the impression I would be getting a higher class professional auditor and not a trainee. This is of course right after the DM GAT was released and I was so surprised when my well meaning auditor appeared to be a robot, couldn't get f/n's etc. not that I actually felt like anything miraculous was happening at the mecca, "I" was sent to qual a couple times because I wasn't f/n'ing. I didn't exactly write a *success story*, just a statement of sorts but was more like thank God that's over and was privately dissatisfied not knowing what to think of the experience (with my eternity at jeopardy if I said anything negative you know) and really needed to get back home and get back to work.

Well, that's about all for now.

Will keep looking into it. Advice or suggestions still appreciated. PM's good :yes:

Brian
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Problem

They originally told me correct figures about money left in intensives at two orgs

then lied and said they'd made a mistake and I'd overdrawn an intensive by a

couple of minutes. What does one expect when dealings with a criminal cult ? :angry:
At the least you need to get it in writing before going to court. They have every

advantage by possessing your folders.

LRH said Greed was a mental disease. I guess he would know about that.
 

_brian

WogRevert
Brian,

I agree with Paul – check out the small claims court.

Failing that, make a big and very public fuss. Write to the media, political representatives, consumer groups, anti-scam groups – everyone you can think of. Even consider picketing your local org with a big sign. Talk to a lawyer. Make it perfectly clear that you will cause them a lot of trouble until they pay up. They hate bad publicity and the threat of legal action. You have to make it better for them to pay you than to not pay.

And if nothing else, you will have the satisfaction of showing them up as the crooks they are.

Axiom142

Yes, thanks Ax. :)

That was pretty much what I wrote in my initial letter to flag except the small claims thing.

Just have to build up my drive to start or continue carrying out the plan.

Brian
 

_brian

WogRevert
They originally told me correct figures about money left in intensives at two orgs

then lied and said they'd made a mistake and I'd overdrawn an intensive by a

couple of minutes. What does one expect when dealings with a criminal cult ? :angry:
At the least you need to get it in writing before going to court. They have every

advantage by possessing your folders.

LRH said Greed was a mental disease. I guess he would know about that.

I understand, Blue Spirit.

And of course some info I could use would be in my folders, but I have bits of info to start to put together as dox.

Thanks for the input. :)

Brian
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Though it's not an impossibility, I'm not sure what kind of dox I can round up or provide and other than additional explanations of how one is PR'd, propagandized and basically deceived and lied to, etc.

All that kind of stuff is largely irrelevant. It is agreed by both you and the CofS that you received about 5 hours of the 12 1/2 hours you paid for, right? The *quality* of what you received is impossible to verify by either party, but the *quantity* is not in doubt. I don't think you will get anywhere discussing the details beyond the fact that you paid $5512.50 (or whatever) for 12 1/2 hours of service and they delivered 43.5% (or whatever) of it. You want the unused 56.5% (or whatever) back and they refuse to give it.

Don't try and make it more complex than that and it should be an open and shut case.

-----

This was after I had routed out. I made a little bit of money as an extra: the studios pay casting companies to fill the audience seats if there aren't enough casual public wanting to be there. I was on call and sometimes got called. It was only a mile's walk away for me. Sometimes I'd show up and not be needed, but would be paid anyway. It was only $5 an hour for three hours, but I wasn't doing much else with my time then so it all helped. Plus I got to be on national TV once a week for a couple of months. It sounds great if you don't give too many details!

Paul
 

_brian

WogRevert
All that kind of stuff is largely irrelevant. It is agreed by both you and the CofS that you received about 5 hours of the 12 1/2 hours you paid for, right? The *quality* of what you received is impossible to verify by either party, but the *quantity* is not in doubt. I don't think you will get anywhere discussing the details beyond the fact that you paid $5512.50 (or whatever) for 12 1/2 hours of service and they delivered 43.5% (or whatever) of it. You want the unused 56.5% (or whatever) back and they refuse to give it.

Don't try and make it more complex than that and it should be an open and shut case.Paul

Bolded, Yes and noted.

It was determined and in writing, I only used 4 1/4 hours.

Wonder if the thing the court would have to adjudicate is whether the lrh refund/repayment policy/scripture <- lol and my enrollment agreement holds any lawful enforcement?

Just thinking out loud.


-----

This was after I had routed out. I made a little bit of money as an extra: the studios pay casting companies to fill the audience seats if there aren't enough casual public wanting to be there. I was on call and sometimes got called. It was only a mile's walk away for me. Sometimes I'd show up and not be needed, but would be paid anyway. It was only $5 an hour for three hours, but I wasn't doing much else with my time then so it all helped. Plus I got to be on national TV once a week for a couple of months. It sounds great if you don't give too many details!

Cool, I would have done the same. :)

Brian
 
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