Two Main Types of Ex-Scientologists

[HelluvaHoax!]

I do agree that the OP has presented a simplistic and quite inaccurate view of ex-scientologists. Becoming unhooked from Scientology is a process starting (usually) with "the tech is good, the current church is bad" through various "well, that tech is OK but..." to some landing place. That landing place varies from one person to the next.

However, I really haven't seen partial believers being "invalidated" much at all here. Maybe I'm missing something. What I have seen (and done myself) is the challenging of any statements that "Scientology works!" I consider it very important to challenge any such statements because that is a major part of the trap.

But challenging, questioning, even invalidating Hubbard's "tech" is not invalidating the person. I certainly never would do that. Now, maybe some people have invested too much of themselves in that belief, like auditors, like independent scientologists, it is STILL not personal invalidation to challenge any "Scientology works!" claims.

Good post.

I commented about something here a few years ago when there were a few posters that heavily promoted the "Scientology viewpoint of Life" across a gargantuan number of threads. That riled up the "x-factor" (as in EX factor) in some and, never one to miss a fun time, I certainly joined in that party.

Then, like clockwork, there were hysterical cries and accusations that the critics were too critical, lol. Some folks (no longer here) regularly got bent out of shape hurling accusations that I was trying to drive people off the board with cruelty and other unspeakably evil mojo. Flame wars erupted, driven by the (then) SJWs policing the board and trying to create a "safe space" where Scientologists and Indie Scientologists were free to Clear the Planet without counter-intention and other-intention. Sometimes the place got really heated up but it was (to me) always extremely entertaining and enjoyable to watch how the SJWs and Scn-Promoters reacted under the spotlight of direct questions and facts. For the most part, they behaved exactly like the SJWs in today's universities; to wit, hysterical finger pointing, nasty-label-hurling & desperate attempts to get critics banned by any means necessary. Yes, the critics were under siege at such times by crusader-trolls who could not stand to read anything that did not agree with their tunnel vision.

(So, can you get to the freaking point HelluvaHoax, already???!!!) Yeah, okay, I can do that. lol.

What I finally realized after many of these "entheta" exchanges is this. When a critic criticizes the CLAIMS or PRODUCTS OF SCIENTOLOGY (i.e. the hyperbolic claims of supernatural states/powers for Clears & OTs) IT IS PERCEIVED AS A VICIOUS "AD-HOM ATTACK" BY THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES CLEARS & OTS. BECAUSE IT IS "INVALIDATING" THEIR VIEW OF THEMSELVES.

I even mentioned this on one of famous battle-threads, because I had directly asked the poster (long gone, but famous in their day for effete erudition-cloaked nasty) if they could answer what abilities they achieved by Clear and OT. That line of questioning was like showing a cross to a vampire. All hell broke loose, because nobody (SJWs assured us) was allowed to "attack" other board members. I can't recount the number of SJW attempts to get me moderated or banned. Well once I retired for a while when one of my posts was re-written by Ethercat to sanitize it and make it politically correct. Perhaps her motivations were pure, but I didn't sign up to work as a pro-bono copywriter in the Ministry of (acceptable) Truths, LOL.

But, the point is that a SCIENTOLOGIST or INDIE cannot separate themselves from the mythological "states" that L. Ron Hubbard guaranteed them they would achieve. And when they DID attest to said states (Clear, OT, et al) anyone speaking about "Clear" or "OT" was speaking about THEM PERSONALLY? Hence it was an unprovoked, mean, hateful, rule violating Ad Hom! Get it?

As with the COS, Indies (and other trolls that specialize in attacking Scn critics, like Rathbun/Alanzo), their entire raison d'être is to make whistleblowers STFU. That's all its about. That's all the Guardians Office was ever about. That's all that OSA was ever about.

Scientologists/Indies are always to a marked extend TROLLS by default, since they follow the scripture and mandates of Mankind's Greatest Troll, L. Ron Hubbard. Thus, to the degree that a person believes in Scientology is the degree to which they will do everything in their power to destroy your constitutional right to speak freely; and failing that, Hubbardites will then do everything in their power to disconnect you, so that nobody can hear you speaking.

Personally, I really enjoy the dramatic moments when a Scientologist is frozen like a deer in the headlights when presented with facts and asked a question for which they have no way to answer. It is cruel? To Scientologists, yes, unspeakably and intolerably cruel.

But is it actually cruel to ask someone a question about the very thing they are promoting? No. It's only cruel to marks, hapless dupes, useful idiots, charlatans, con men and trolls. Oh well, it's nothing new. Wearing the wrong color uniform has always caused people to get shot, in war and conversations.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

As far as ever believing THE TECH works, I would say you are NOT Ex if you think it does. Reading scientologese makes me sick. It is all con job jargon. As far as wanting to increase one's spiritual happiness, there are many ways. For me personally, playing Schubert, Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Mahler, and others has brought me to the very threshold of heaven before...it is hard to explain what playing string quartets, quintets, piano trios, and indeed full orchestra music is like given the right circumstances. I will tell you I remember every single instance of enlightened music making in my life.

Glad to see you hale and hearty my highly esteemed and deeply cherished friend, colleague, fellow "God, Guns and Guts" Republican and former co-worker at FCDC.

Please ensure that you examine my posts on the Trump thread and feel free to comment.

Jee-yay-ziss!!!

I wish Taj were here.

Can anyone rattle his cage and tell him "Surf's up!"?

 

[Leland]

My take is there are two main types of ex-scientologist:

1. Those who will never go back.

2. Those who would only go back to start lobbing live hand grenades.

Yes, so true!

 

[lotus]

As far as ever believing THE TECH works, I would say you are NOT Ex if you think it does. Reading scientologese makes me sick. It is all con job jargon. As far as wanting to increase one's spiritual happiness, there are many ways. For me personally, playing Schubert, Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Mahler, and others has brought me to the very threshold of heaven before...it is hard to explain what playing string quartets, quintets, piano trios, and indeed full orchestra music is like given the right circumstances. I will tell you I remember every single instance of enlightened music making in my life.

I second you especially on string quartets\quintets and full orchestra.
I wish my last moment on earth will be blessed with cellos playing what I use listen to hours after hours...

A true connection between soul and ''god'' through beauty of frequencies and harmonics

A free Scientology bridge or one minute of this would you choose ????

I would choose one minute of soul orgasm over a lifetime of mental ilness and soul prison.

 

[Operating DB]

I love the new nickname for hubs: Mankind's Greatest Troll. Thank you Helluva! I've added it to my ever growing list of fun pejorative names for that a**wipe.

 

[Bill]

Yea, too black and white a structure.

As far as the “tech”.... there is a big difference between “ move that paper clip” and electronic ribbons in the air catching thetans blown up in a nuclear/volcanic explosion.....

Unfortunately one does not know that the first leads to the second.....

Back when I was a naive "pre-clear", I thought that the mysterious and powerful "OT Levels" would be processes to unlock those "OT powers" and instructions and drills on how to use those powers. That was, I thought, what was promised.

Imagine my disappointment when it was absolutely nothing like that -- worse, that it was all about removing invisible head lice.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Back when I was a naive "pre-clear", I thought that the mysterious and powerful "OT Levels" would be processes to unlock those "OT powers" and instructions and drills on how to use those powers. That was, I thought, what was promised.

Imagine my disappointment when it was absolutely nothing like that -- worse, that it was all about removing invisible headlice.

Well for crying out loud Bill, don't you think people infected with invisible head lice have a right to be treated for the condition?

SHEEEESH!!!

What sort of grinch would deny effective treatment to people afflicted with invisible head lice?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I love the new nickname for hubs: Mankind's Greatest Troll. Thank you Helluva! I've added it to my ever growing list of fun pejorative names for that a**wipe.

As long as you are on that subject (lol). . .

After I called Hubbard that the first time, I had a follow up thought moments later. It's related to that "scale" Hubbard "discovered". I don't think I've seen it for maybe 4 decades, so this isn't going to be verbatim. It goes something like this (leaving out the parts my reactive mind made me forget):

GAME MAKER (pan determined)​

​

GAME PLAYER (self determined)​

​

PIECE (other determined???)​

​

BROKEN PIECE ( ??? )​

​

Let's assume this is true for a moment. A "broken piece" would be someone like Marty Rathbun or Alanzo. Another name for "broken piece" (in my view) is TROLL. The person can't do anything productive so they parasite off others, trying to steal their status--and making everyone miserable for no reason other than they compulsively crave the feeling of being center stage.

Now, finally, here's my point.

GAME MAKER is how Hubbard imagined himself.

He was, in fact, a TROLL MAKER.

.

 

[RogerB]

In real life I've told people who are exiting Scientology that the most important
thing they can do is not deny, discard, or invalidate any wins or gains they
DID get. Any benefit they achieved is theirs to keep. I mean why deny any
personal betterment or change from whatever the source, be it auditing,
a book, a college course, a YouTube video, or whatever.

The whole of your post above, ILove2, is quite brilliant and correct.

But of critical importance is the extract I cite above . . . it is actually very, very destructive to invalidate or make nothing of oneself and/or any recovered awareness or ascensions to various degrees of "enlightenment."

Alan Walter wrote extensively here on ESMB about the phenomena of the "Ascension Crash and Burn" sequence . . .

It happens in all areas of life and living . . . but was routine in the Cult of Scientology because Hubbard never had the tech to a) properly validate, b) stabilize and c) empower and put under the person's knowing control the ascended to recovered or new state.

Hence, the consideration by many in the cult that they "got gains but then lost them" . . . but that was an erroneous conclusion. They did experience the gain they first perceived but, due to omitted tech within the cult, the gain they experienced was not stabilized and out under the person's full knowing control, and it ended up becoming occluded by charge and by-passed charge moving in from other areas of the person's being.

 

[George Layton]

The whole of your post above, ILove2, is quite brilliant and correct.

But of critical importance is the extract I cite above . . . it is actually very, very destructive to invalidate or make nothing of oneself and/or any recovered awareness or ascensions to various degrees of "enlightenment."

Alan Walter wrote extensively here on ESMB about the phenomena of the "Ascension Crash and Burn" sequence . . .

It happens in all areas of life and living . . . but was routine in the Cult of Scientology because Hubbard never had the tech to a) properly validate, b) stabilize and c) empower and put under the person's knowing control the ascended to recovered or new state.

Hence, the consideration by many in the cult that they "got gains but then lost them" . . . but that was an erroneous conclusion. They did experience the gain they first perceived but, due to omitted tech within the cult, the gain they experienced was not stabilized and out under the person's full knowing control, and it ended up becoming occluded by charge and by-passed charge moving in from other areas of the person's being.

If a person has a mental or spiritual experience after going through different exercises of introspection and then someone attaches reasons for those experiences, isn't that taking what their gain was and giving them some gain defined by another? How can a person know the spiritual experience of another. Acting with the belief of the ability to create spiritual experiences, as if a spiritual experience can be brought about through a mental process, and the belief of the ability to define, for the experiencer, what is being experienced, does not create a gain but a persuaded influence.

 

[Bill]

The whole of your post above, ILove2, is quite brilliant and correct.

But of critical importance is the extract I cite above . . . it is actually very, very destructive to invalidate or make nothing of oneself and/or any recovered awareness or ascensions to various degrees of "enlightenment."

Alan Walter wrote extensively here on ESMB about the phenomena of the "Ascension Crash and Burn" sequence . . .

It happens in all areas of life and living . . . but was routine in the Cult of Scientology because Hubbard never had the tech to a) properly validate, b) stabilize and c) empower and put under the person's knowing control the ascended to recovered or new state.

Hence, the consideration by many in the cult that they "got gains but then lost them" . . . but that was an erroneous conclusion. They did experience the gain they first perceived but, due to omitted tech within the cult, the gain they experienced was not stabilized and out under the person's full knowing control, and it ended up becoming occluded by charge and by-passed charge moving in from other areas of the person's being.

I don't think the "got gains then lost them" is very complex or difficult to explain when viewed as belief. I've experienced this phenomena untold numbers of times in my life: I have a thought, realization, epiphany and have a whole new viewpoint -- which changes my life. But then life happens. It's just a belief. New things come up, maybe conflicting information, maybe just stress, maybe new thoughts, something happens to shake that belief and things settle back down. The "gains" are just a new viewpoint -- a belief. The "loss of gains" is just another viewpoint. It's normal. This isn't exclusive to Scientology -- that sort of thing happens to everybody every day.

It is very rare that one has some epiphany that really makes a permanent change to one's life -- and I don't think Scientology "tech" makes that kind of change and, if it does, it's the exception.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

It seems to me that Scientology was (and is) just a head game based on winning approval from others who are already playing.

We should slightly re-jig and rename it and turn it into an official board game/computer game (with apps ... for an extra donation).

We'd make a fortune!

We could cheer a lot and smile or nod approvingly when players say what they are meant to say or are showing positive signs of indoctrination, issue cyber certs when they perform correctly (yeah, that does mean robotically but we must remember not to use that word in the actual game). If one writes a cheesy (is there another kind?) success story they would get a cert, the clap applause and some condescending very sincere "validation" from a true believer (we still have a couple of them around here so that won't be a problem).

Shiny, glittery medals could be handed out to the really gullible and needy ones when they donate a load of extra cash or if they are a bit well known and could bring us more players and money ... but, we could also send them to the RPF on a whim or when they're naughty and make them run around poles for days on end and order them to appear before official looking committees where stony faced scientologists await, with clipboards and pens (oh nooooo, not the clipboard brigade) and scathing sneers ready to judge and condemn.

We could be heroes gurus ... just for one day.

Oh wait, I forgot ... this is 2018, people are not as gullible as they once were.

Sigh.

 

[Winston Smith]

I second you especially on string quartets\quintets and full orchestra.
I wish my last moment on earth will be blessed with cellos playing what I use listen to hours after hours...

A true connection between soul and ''god'' through beauty of frequencies and harmonics

A free Scientology bridge or one minute of this would you choose ????

I would choose one minute of soul orgasm over a lifetime of mental ilness and soul prison.

You know, I began cello before it was cool. Now it is so cool that everyone plays, so for me it is not so much fun
any longer. I used to play in Richmond Philharmonic, Richmond, VA, but quit when I just felt players were not
listening to each other. Next thing I know, they replaced me with FOUR more cellos, and now have been routinely
giving concerts with twelve or more. Thing is TWO of them know what they are doing, the rest are just hacks and
it sounds it. Does not worry me as I won't go back, too far now for me to travel. But it is illustrative of how popular
cello is, and how prevalent cheap cellos and weak players are. Cello playing is hard. I have to be very careful ever
time I play to pay attention to tiny details. But that is the joy of it, a never ending challenge to play the best one
possibly can play and there are no short cuts to that goal.

 

[lotus]

Hello Winston,

We can feel your passion in your writings about playing cello.
You must be a good player. though.

I love listening to Yo-Yo Ma, but recently discoverred 2cellos (luka and Sulik) playing classics.
The cover they did of ''the mission - Ennio Morricone'' made me ''lost it''...
The way they play on their cello is very sensual, like if they are caressing a women, very gently

I got the best tickets to attend their concert in a few months - me very excited!

Do you like it ???

Also, I am trying to find some tickets (very expensive though) to attend Yo-Yo Ma concert playing Bach cellos suites ; he is the best among the best..

Wouldn't we love to die in such a moment, our soul deeply moved ??? ...

That would make us another type of ex-$cientologist..
The end justify the means..anything to enjoy such beauty in life .....on this planet !

 

[guanoloco]

There are two types of Scientologists, too:

Type 1: those who are ex-Scientologists

And

Type 2: those who wish they were.

 

[Winston Smith]

Hello Winston,

We can feel your passion in your writings about playing cello.
You must be a good player. though.

I love listening to Yo-Yo Ma, but recently discoverred 2cellos (luka and Sulik) playing classics.
The cover they did of ''the mission - Ennio Morricone'' made me ''lost it''...
The way they play on their cello is very sensual, like if they are caressing a women, very gently

I got the best tickets to attend their concert in a few months - me very excited!

Do you like it ???

Also, I am trying to find some tickets (very expensive though) to attend Yo-Yo Ma concert playing Bach cellos suites ; he is the best among the best..

I would die in such a moment, my soul deeply moved ...

That would make us another type of ex-$cientologist..
The end justify the means..anything to enjoy such beauty in life .....on this planet !

Yes, very fine playing. And I am happy they make you happy! What one finds as one becomes an old guy is there is more and more competition, but that is certainly not really a factor with us old guys...we have done our bit and yield to the younger generation.
I remember musing that it takes about twelve to sixteen years to take a kid and make him a professional. May sound like a long time but when you are a professional, that time goes by quickly.

Yo Yo has been on the world stage for many decades, born 1955 and active as a pro performer since 1961! That's over fifty years. I am three years older, ha. Once I played with the 92nd Street Y orchestra (only once) and I warmed up on a concerto. This oriental kid next to me takes it up, sounding four times better than me. I have always wondered if that were not Yo Yo Ma. Yes his Bach is fantastic, but there are many soloists who have recorded them. I hate to say this, but Mstislav Rostropovich made a recording in his late sixties that is atrocious unless you happen to love that style. And I love Rostropovich, in his prime the greatest cellist to ever walk the earth. What he did in the 50s and 60s will never be matched, but if you were not there it is impossible to describe. You may not be able to find these cellists' recordings, but here are some great renditions of BACH: Pierre Fournier, Anner Byslma, Paul Tortelier, and of course the incomparable Pablo Casals.

Another cellist I have such great admiration for is Lynn Harrell, now about 70 and largely retired. He is a player larger than life on the mold of Rostropovich. I think he is 6'5" just a huge guy and has a wonderful bio. When he was very young his dad, Mac Harrell, a Metropolitan Opera singer, suddenly died. His mom shortly thereafter. Already a fine cellist as a kid, Georg Szell of Cleveland Orchestra took him under his wing, and made him principal cellist. Harrell is also closely associated with Dallas Symphony. Anyway,
to hear that guy live was just as thrilling as Rostropovich. I heard him play Elgar concerto with Dallas Symphony in 1980, and afterwards the concertmaster was raving about the way the entire stage SHOOK when he played. Just massive power (like Rostropovich...cannot describe the effect) Another time I heard Harrell live at Kennedy Center and got the education of my life.
For the first half I sat in the nosebleed section, and his sound was just pure spun gold. For the second half I went up under his nose practically, sixth row. All you could hear was surface noise! the poor instrument straining against his massive arm! It was very precise, but nothing like what came out many rows back! That taught me a valuable lesson, that what is heard under the ear is nothing like what is in the audience.

I know a really good violinist who is something of a Renaissance man, and he made his own violin. Up close it sounds fine. In a rehearsal I got up and went out to the audience area to listen. Ten feet away, he had a scrawny thin sound that was horrendous. Up close he sounds like a professional violinist...just to give you perspective on acoustics, and fine instruments compared to junk.

Winnie

 

[JackStraw]

In a diabolically ironic way, Hubbard was correct.

On OT levels Scientologists studied about how their lives, emotions and very thoughts can be dominated and manipulated by an alien--from another planet.

Scientologists dutifully paid for and went on the hunt (for decades) to "spot" and "blow" their BT.

Scientologists never paused a moment to consider that the basic-basic-BT (that would blow the entire chain and all other BTs) was an alien named L. Ron Hubbard. After all, Hubbard said it himself on audiotaped lectures: "I AM NOT FROM THIS PLANET".

The hidden influence all along, therefore, was the alien that was telling Scientologists how to find the aliens. His lectures and HCOBs somehow didn't mention that the Pre-OT might find evil aliens inside of Scientology and even up at the top of the "command channel".

When I first heard that Scientology was a religion that had a "command channel" I should have stopped spotting alien beings and causing them to blow--and (instead) spotted myself, so I could blow.

WTF, a religion with military uniforms and messianically megalomaniacal morons saluting each other?!!!

It's okay, really--an advanced being from another
planet named "Ron" told them to do this.


.​

Ronny successfully sold the same con to scns at least three times, if I understand all this correctly:

1) The innocent wog is convinced he has a reactive mind and this is reinforced through training and auditing until he "cognites" that he is creating (mocking up) his own reactive mind, when suddenly he is "clear."

2) He is convinced he is under attack/influence of alien BTs (space cooties) who control him, even while a clear. This is reinforced with training and auditing until he cognites that he is creating/mocking up his own space cooties at which point he is done with them.

3) He is convinced all through 1 & 2 above that he has lived many, many previous lives, which idea is reinforced by training and auditing until, on OT VIII he cognites that he is creating/mocking up all this past life stuff and now he knows who he is not.

It's amazing! You are told you have a condition. You allow yourself to be convinced of it and to pay to repair/remove the condition and then realize you are the one that is/has been creating it!

At the end of all this you have spent x number of years and upwards of $500,000.00! And you end up where you started, albeit years later and much, much poorer: a person without a reactive mind, without space cooties telling you what to do/think etc and without endless bogus past lives.

What a con!

Jack

 

[formercosmod]

Ronny successfully sold the same con to scns at least three times, if I understand all this correctly:

1) The innocent wog is convinced he has a reactive mind and this is reinforced through training and auditing until he "cognites" that he is creating (mocking up) his own reactive mind, when suddenly he is "clear."

2) He is convinced he is under attack/influence of alien BTs (space cooties) who control him, even while a clear. This is reinforced with training and auditing until he cognites that he is creating/mocking up his own space cooties at which point he is done with them.

3) He is convinced all through 1 & 2 above that he has lived many, many previous lives, which idea is reinforced by training and auditing until, on OT VIII he cognites that he is creating/mocking up all this past life stuff and now he knows who he is not.

It's amazing! You are told you have a condition. You allow yourself to be convinced of it and to pay to repair/remove the condition and then realize you are the one that is/has been creating it!

At the end of all this you have spent x number of years and upwards of $500,000.00! And you end up where you started, albeit years later and much, much poorer: a person without a reactive mind, without space cooties telling you what to do/think etc and without endless bogus past lives.

What a con!

Jack

Jack, that was a perfect outline of the whole Scn mind-f**k! Thank you!

 

[guanoloco]

Ronny successfully sold the same con to scns at least three times, if I understand all this correctly:

1) The innocent wog is convinced he has a reactive mind and this is reinforced through training and auditing until he "cognites" that he is creating (mocking up) his own reactive mind, when suddenly he is "clear."

2) He is convinced he is under attack/influence of alien BTs (space cooties) who control him, even while a clear. This is reinforced with training and auditing until he cognites that he is creating/mocking up his own space cooties at which point he is done with them.

3) He is convinced all through 1 & 2 above that he has lived many, many previous lives, which idea is reinforced by training and auditing until, on OT VIII he cognites that he is creating/mocking up all this past life stuff and now he knows who he is not.

It's amazing! You are told you have a condition. You allow yourself to be convinced of it and to pay to repair/remove the condition and then realize you are the one that is/has been creating it!

At the end of all this you have spent x number of years and upwards of $500,000.00! And you end up where you started, albeit years later and much, much poorer: a person without a reactive mind, without space cooties telling you what to do/think etc and without endless bogus past lives.

What a con!

Jack

It's the Wizard of Cause.

Just like in the Wizard of Oz it was the Scarecrow frantically running around to find a brain who comes up with all of the bright ideas...it's the Tin Man desparately looking in the physical universe for a heart that sentimentally cries himself to rust...the Cowardly Lion is able to face his fears and Dorothy has the means to return the whole time on her feet.

Everyone looking to the Wizard for answers have their answers already. The Wizard is merely a con behind a curtain.

 

[guanoloco]

As long as you are on that subject (lol). . .

After I called Hubbard that the first time, I had a follow up thought moments later. It's related to that "scale" Hubbard "discovered". I don't think I've seen it for maybe 4 decades, so this isn't going to be verbatim. It goes something like this (leaving out the parts my reactive mind made me forget):

GAME MAKER (pan determined)

GAME PLAYER (self determined)

PIECE (other determined???)

BROKEN PIECE ( ??? )
​

Let's assume this is true for a moment. A "broken piece" would be someone like Marty Rathbun or Alanzo. Another name for "broken piece" (in my view) is TROLL. The person can't do anything productive so they parasite off others, trying to steal their status--and making everyone miserable for no reason other than they compulsively crave the feeling of being center stage.

Now, finally, here's my point.

GAME MAKER is how Hubbard imagined himself.

He was, in fact, a TROLL MAKER.

.

Hubbard certainly broke pieces.