Upstairs at the Org

Operating DB

Truman Show Dropout
For some stupid reason, staff are trained to scream and yell. I experienced it a bit and many here also have. She was trying to push your buttons and get under your skin. I always thought they act like torturers in a gulag or midnight inquisition where some poor bastard is picked up in the middle of the night and questioned and threatened.

The screaming goes back to Source. They're in Hu666ard's valance. He treated his juniors like sh!t and then it spread down through the channels. Hu666ard raged and screamed and he is always right therefore it must be the right way to handle things. Contagion of abberation and all that crap.
 

Hypatia

Pagan
Da cherch sucks people in with all kinds of high flown stuff like "being high toned", "pan determined" "don't invalidate or evaluate" "no games conditions" and even policies about no debt - and they break every single one on a constant basis.
 

Bost_Bobby

Patron with Honors
sounds to me, in view of reading your story here and posts later in time from this one,

my opinion is because you were still all friendly and cheerful with a never ending sense of humor, they have thought you were a Joker & Degrader, hence the yelling. And/or and maybe a Tweetie Wheetie Case, they were out to get you cracked, put the fear of God in you, if you know what I mean. KSW is serious business in their eyes.

:confused2:

That general nasty and angry attitude was an eye-opener and a red flag when I went in there in the mid-eighties. I think it was 1985. It was so different from1976. The contrast was glaringly obvious.

In the mid-seventies it seemed half the people were singing and joking, being loud and boisterous and just all-around having a good time. Maybe it had something to do with it being night instead of daytime? In the seventies I was doing night courses but in the eighties I was in during the day.

But then the mid-eighties was the beginning of the rein of David Bobblehead Miscavige.

Just this moment I remembered something that happened the day after it was announced that Hubbard had died. I went into the org and some woman sat me down at a desk and she had that black and white portrait of Hubbard where he has his chin in his hand looking straight into the camera.

She turned in her chair to the wall where the portrait hung. She let a few seconds pass as she stared at it and then she said: "Just look at Ron. Doesn't he look like that perfect father type?" I don't know why but that question made me very uncomfortable at the time.

"Mmm, yeah", I answered. But then I had to open my mouth and tell some truth so I then added: "But in that picture he always reminds me of Clarence the angel in the movie It's a Wonderful Life". And it did and still does in a way. I didn't see anything wrong with that as Clarence was a kind but bumbling angel. I don't remember what her comment was so it could not have been too bad.

The way she asked me that question just seemed at the time to be so forced. Maybe she was just trying to convince herself of it. And as far as I remember that was the only time his death was ever discussed. It wasn't too long after that that I let the door hit me in the ass on my way out....for good.
 

Bost_Bobby

Patron with Honors
sounds to me, in view of reading your story here and posts later in time from this one,

my opinion is because you were still all friendly and cheerful with a never ending sense of humor, they have thought you were a Joker & Degrader, hence the yelling. And/or and maybe a Tweetie Wheetie Case, they were out to get you cracked, put the fear of God in you, if you know what I mean. KSW is serious business in their eyes.

:confused2:

I had to go searching Google for a definition of a Theetie Wheetie case.

THEETIE-WEETIE CASE, 1. he operates in a totally psychotic way while being totally serene. The valence is all the way up at tone 40 and the pc is all the way down at minus eight. (SH Spec 2, 6105C12) 2. a “sweetness and light” case at the extreme top of the graph who will go to graph bottom before the case starts up again as though the profile were a cylinder which when it goes off the top, then appears on the bottom when people are in “serene” valences (meaning they are wholly overwhelmed as a thetan). (HCOB 5 Jun 61) 3. is high on the OCA/APA yet makes no progress. This is because such cases believe you ought to know what they are thinking about, so every moment around them you are missing withholds. (BTB 12 Jul 62)

Jesus! Hubbard made sure he had an answer for everything. If you are enthusiastic there's a reason it's bad. If you are excited there's a reason its bad. If you are happy there's a reason its bad. If you are intelligent there is a reason its bad, and on and on and on. How in the hell did all of you Auditors keep track of all that crap?
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I had to go searching Google for a definition of a Theetie Wheetie case.

THEETIE-WEETIE CASE, 1. he operates in a totally psychotic way while being totally serene. The valence is all the way up at tone 40 and the pc is all the way down at minus eight. (SH Spec 2, 6105C12) 2. a “sweetness and light” case at the extreme top of the graph who will go to graph bottom before the case starts up again as though the profile were a cylinder which when it goes off the top, then appears on the bottom when people are in “serene” valences (meaning they are wholly overwhelmed as a thetan). (HCOB 5 Jun 61) 3. is high on the OCA/APA yet makes no progress. This is because such cases believe you ought to know what they are thinking about, so every moment around them you are missing withholds. (BTB 12 Jul 62)

Jesus! Hubbard made sure he had an answer for everything. If you are enthusiastic there's a reason it's bad. If you are excited there's a reason its bad. If you are happy there's a reason its bad. If you are intelligent there is a reason its bad, and on and on and on. How in the hell did all of you Auditors keep track of all that crap?

If you study very hard it all begins to make sense after a while.
 
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TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
That general nasty and angry attitude was an eye-opener and a red flag when I went in there in the mid-eighties. I think it was 1985. It was so different from1976. The contrast was glaringly obvious.

In the mid-seventies it seemed half the people were singing and joking, being loud and boisterous and just all-around having a good time. Maybe it had something to do with it being night instead of daytime? In the seventies I was doing night courses but in the eighties I was in during the day.

But then the mid-eighties was the beginning of the rein of David Bobblehead Miscavige.
///

Things were still fun, especially in the outer orgs and missions, but the seeds of the Church's Kristallnacht (The Mission Holder's Conference in 1982) had been planted. There was already a burgeoning RPF program in Los Angeles before the Complex was occupied, at Flag and Saint Hill, a 16 year old Miscavige had started his apprenticeship and in Feb. 1977 the Laughter died:

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2003-09-22.html
 

Bost_Bobby

Patron with Honors
Things were still fun, especially in the outer orgs and missions, but the seeds of the Church's Kristallnacht (The Mission Holder's Conference in 1982) had been planted. There was already a burgeoning RPF program in Los Angeles before the Complex was occupied, at Flag and Saint Hill, a 16 year old Miscavige had started his apprenticeship and in Feb. 1977 the Laughter died:

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2003-09-22.html

So that's why what you would call the old timers are all gone, at least for the most part? There was the camaraderie and the good times up until the early eighties so when they felt that come on they would not accept such a drastic change. Ok, not the ONLY reason you all left but you get the gist.

I remember how excited everyone was when I think it was 1976 Charley and I drove to San Francisco to a theatre on Mission Street. The main speaker was Quentin Hubbard. Such a soft-spoken and charismatic guy. All of us in the audience we're extremely enthusiastic towards him. I'm glad I got to see him.
 
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Gib

Crusader
Things were still fun, especially in the outer orgs and missions, but the seeds of the Church's Kristallnacht (The Mission Holder's Conference in 1982) had been planted. There was already a burgeoning RPF program in Los Angeles before the Complex was occupied, at Flag and Saint Hill, a 16 year old Miscavige had started his apprenticeship and in Feb. 1977 the Laughter died:

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2003-09-22.html

what a great write-up by Gerry. I wish the links still worked for the first J&Der, I'd luv to read them.
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
All the old timers I talked to agreed; back in the Seventies 'if it's not fun, it's not Scientology!'.

I got out at exactly the right time, I think; 1982.
 
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pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
All the old timers I talked to agreed; back in the Seventies 'if it's not fun, it's not Scientology!'.

Yeah, we used to say that. But if they told you to do something, you couldn't say "I don't wanna do that, it's not fun." If it wasn't fun, it was YOUR fault.

I got out at exactly the right time, I think; 1982.

Amen. Beat you by a year.

I don't usually call myself an "old-timer"; I didn't get in 'til 1975. But it's all relative, I guess.
 
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Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Yeah, we used to say that. But if they told you to do something, you couldn't say "I don't wanna do that, it's not fun." If it wasn't fun, it was YOUR fault.

Exactly! You can't say the ol' man wasn't a master manipulator.



Amen. Beat you by a year.

I was being conservative, but who knows, I forget exactly.

I was there when John Lennon got killed. I left shortly after.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
I am only on page two but this sounds like a perfectly generic description of the Scientology experience. Like if you stripped the identifying markers out of a story and just left the rest of it.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
Maybe somebody here can clarify for me what occurred one day during my second stint as a public at a class V org. It was the summer of '85 and I had just quit a job I was in for 10 years. I had a few thousand dollars in profit sharing which I never told the org about.

My dear family friend, Charley, years before had paid for the HAS course for me and I felt it was time to go back and finally take it. I had read pretty much all of the basic books by this time.

Funny how you have to hide your money from them, isn't it?

I was told that they no longer offered the HAS but instead the equivalent would be the Ups and Downs in Life Course. Of course I took it. I have to admit it pissed me off as the course consisted of parts from one of the books I had read. It may have even been the Big Green volunteer ministers handbook which I still have by the way.

True the HAS doesn't exist, or at least didn't back in 2008.

Now this is the part that I need understanding with. At some point I was called to one of the upstairs floors into an office. I sat down across the desk from a woman I did not know. She told me she was going to ask me some questions so I thought, "okay this won't be so bad." What happened next startled me.

She picked up the phone receiver that was on her desk, punched in 3 or 4 numbers, then put the receiver on the desk in front of me. I looked at it and I thought "what the f is this about?"

For the life of me I cannot recall even one question she asked but I do remember being embarrassed, angry, insulted, and shocked at most of the questions. They were very personal involving my girlfriend and my finances and things like that. I definitely did not volunteer any details. I just wish like hell I remembered the questions.

Someone was likely on the other line listening in, but this could have been any number of conversations with any number of people. A reg, an ethics officer, someone who was assigned to investigate you for the reasons you mentioned later in this thread. At least in my experience with the somewhat 'modern' version of Scientology, this conversation is typical of just about any Scientologist. They are all invasive, rude and accusative to anyone who they perceive to have done anything they would consider non-optimum or anyone who has put on airs that didn't seem Tone 40. If you're not happy, then your private life needs to be invaded by every Scientologist that sees you. It's awful. Just horrible. No sense of boundaries in there. My father routinely asked me about my sex life, as if my promiscuity had anything to do with my car getting stolen.

So really, you could have been talking to anyone about anything. The tactic of not sharing with you the reason why they are asking these questions really streams back to any interrogation technique. If you tell someone what you are looking for, you give them a chance to rationalize their answers to appease your suspicions. So calling someone into the room, putting them on the phone with a stranger and asking them all kinds of questions without ever revealing why puts you in the precarious position where you can't lie, because a lie might get you into more trouble than the truth, but also you are reeling from the invasive nature of the questions. Pushing your way into someone's privacy like that, so forcefully and suddenly is like a kick in the balls. It took me years to finally rebuild my defenses to where I can recognize now when someone is being much too "friendly" with their line of questioning. I'm finally comfortable telling someone when they are being to forward with me.

I would just like to know from those of you who may have had the same experience or maybe even had been the person on the other side of that desk who did the same types of things with others, what was going on? Was someone else somewhere in the building listening in and writing down what was being said? Was I being recorded? I almost asked her why she did that but something inside of me told me that her answer would be that she was just making sure that we were not being disturbed. This was not the only time I had a strange encounter with somebody in an office in that building.

So, anybody have knowledge of this or an opinion?

Most likely what was going on is that someone was listening in on the conversation. That's pretty typical. I am not even shocked by the fact that she did that. In fact at AOLA, where I slaved, that was a routine activity, for a staff member to dial someone into a conversation without informing the other party. For many different reasons. Because they might need to tag someone in on a reg cycle, or for training purposes, or to let ethics hear what was going on, or so the auditor or case sup could use the conversation to manage the person's auditing.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
So that's why what you would call the old timers are all gone, at least for the most part? There was the camaraderie and the good times up until the early eighties so when they felt that come on they would not accept such a drastic change. Ok, not the ONLY reason you all left but you get the gist.

I remember how excited everyone was when I think it was 1976 Charley and I drove to San Francisco to a theatre on Mission Street. The main speaker was Quentin Hubbard. Such a soft-spoken and charismatic guy. All of us in the audience we're extremely enthusiastic towards him. I'm glad I got to see him.

I guess I could be considered something of an "Old Timer" but I still feel like a late comer compared to the pre-70s batch. My first experiences went back to the early 70s and it was a kick. To hear Tory and others talk about it, those were the Good ol days. By 77 it was a very mixed bag and it got progressively more insane from there on out. I attribute everything to LRH. The guy was a micromanaging tyrant. It was impossible for him to not know what was going on. If it happened it was because he sanctioned it, it provided plausible deniability or he just hadn't gotten around to crushing it yet. The FBI raids were spun as government suppression against Freedom of Religion and unless you waded through entheta news and risked your good standing, who knew the truth?

But yes, while people were still having a great time in Class IV orgs and especially missions near colleges, the RPF at Big Blue was up to about 170 - 200 people, many of whom were highly trained vets from those good old days. We thought this was a bad phase and we would endure the hardships together to see a better day, but it never happened. I'm sure a lot of people left because of radical changes but also because they were worn down and disabused of any romantic notions over a period of time.

Scientology could have taken two paths - Fun or Guilt.

We think "Fun" would have been the more successful and financially viable route but it requires the free flow of ideas and information. There were always fundamental problems with:

• Revelation of LRH's location
• Revelation of LRH's organizational & financial control
• Revelation of LRH's real biography
• Revelation of what was really in the upper levels
• Critical assessment of the teachings
• Critical assessment of the organizational behavior
• Uncontrolled dissemination of information and material
• Uncontrolled media exposure
• Uncontrolled internal PR
• Uncontrolled interaction by disaffected members
Reasonableness with excuses to not donate money, volunteer or purchase services
• Challenges to internal disciplinary actions

That left "Guilt" and it only needed to last as long as LRH was alive.
 

Bost_Bobby

Patron with Honors
I guess I could be considered something of an "Old Timer" but I still feel like a late comer compared to the pre-70s batch. My first experiences went back to the early 70s and it was a kick. To hear Tory and others talk about it, those were the Good ol days. By 77 it was a very mixed bag and it got progressively more insane from there on out. I attribute everything to LRH. The guy was a micromanaging tyrant. It was impossible for him to not know what was going on. If it happened it was because he sanctioned it, it provided plausible deniability or he just hadn't gotten around to crushing it yet. The FBI raids were spun as government suppression against Freedom of Religion and unless you waded through entheta news and risked your good standing, who knew the truth?

But yes, while people were still having a great time in Class IV orgs and especially missions near colleges, the RPF at Big Blue was up to about 170 - 200 people, many of whom were highly trained vets from those good old days. We thought this was a bad phase and we would endure the hardships together to see a better day, but it never happened. I'm sure a lot of people left because of radical changes but also because they were worn down and disabused of any romantic notions over a period of time.

Scientology could have taken two paths - Fun or Guilt.

We think "Fun" would have been the more successful and financially viable route but it requires the free flow of ideas and information. There were always fundamental problems with:

• Revelation of LRH's location
• Revelation of LRH's organizational & financial control
• Revelation of LRH's real biography
• Revelation of what was really in the upper levels
• Critical assessment of the teachings
• Critical assessment of the organizational behavior
• Uncontrolled dissemination of information and material
• Uncontrolled media exposure
• Uncontrolled internal PR
• Uncontrolled interaction by disaffected members
Reasonableness with excuses to not donate money, volunteer or purchase services
• Challenges to internal disciplinary actions

That left "Guilt" and it only needed to last as long as LRH was alive.

That was a great summary of the church's history. I find myself being embarrassed over my own short history with the organization. Most of you spent so many years inside and at the heart of the madness.

I have no doubt that after they realized I was not returning they then congratulated themselves for weeding out yet another who had crimes to hide. One only blows because of his withholds (crimes), right? I read that somewhere and of course if it isn't written it isn't true so...
 

Bost_Bobby

Patron with Honors
So really, you could have been talking to anyone about anything. The tactic of not sharing with you the reason why they are asking these questions really streams back to any interrogation technique. If you tell someone what you are looking for, you give them a chance to rationalize their answers to appease your suspicions. So calling someone into the room, putting them on the phone with a stranger and asking them all kinds of questions without ever revealing why puts you in the precarious position where you can't lie, because a lie might get you into more trouble than the truth, but also you are reeling from the invasive nature of the questions. Pushing your way into someone's privacy like that, so forcefully and suddenly is like a kick in the balls. It took me years to finally rebuild my defenses to where I can recognize now when someone is being much too "friendly" with their line of questioning. I'm finally comfortable telling someone when they are being to forward with me.

It's just amazing they would go to those extremes with someone just taking a few introductory courses. But then again the classrooms were pretty empty and maybe they just needed something to do. It just was a creepy experience.

I keep hoping someone on this board is one who was there and remembers some of these things that happened to me. It's not that difficult to figure out what my location was at that time. If Kathy my course supervisor is out there: It's me!!!!
 
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