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"Upstat" vs. "Downstat"

Discussion in 'Grundy's Guide to Scientology' started by grundy, Mar 5, 2008.

  1. grundy

    grundy Gold Meritorious Patron

    I had to define something on another board for someone, and realized that some here probably didn't get it either.......

    In Scientology, when you are working for the organization (and often this is used on everyone at some point), your success and how "good" you are is determined by how much you produce.

    These are measured by statistics. These statistics are graphed.

    For example, a person who writes letters to prospective customers would have a statistic of "Letters Out."

    You are expected to increase your statistics each week. When you do, you are "upstat." When you do not you are "downstat."

    "Upstats" (people who increase their statistics) are treated more gently, less likely to be corrected, and in general are treated as valuable.

    "Downstats" are treated poorly. Anything done to them is measured against stats. If the person that does something (yelling at them or whatever) is upstat, nothing done to the "downstat" would be considered wrong.

    So, a major push is to "Get your stats up" indicating that the person, and therefore the organization, is doing better, surviving, etc.

    This is expanded to everyone involved, because you are a good person if you are involved with something that is "upstat" and anything "downstat" is viewed as, to some degree, evil.
  2. DartSmohen

    DartSmohen Silver Meritorious Patron


    In the 1970's there was a guy in GO.WW named Donat Perboner. Every week his stat would increase by one unit. He was always in Normal Op. He controlled his output and stat report to ensure that it only went up by the minimum amount.

    After a while anyone with a consistently Normal Op graph was referred to as a "Donat Perboner" graph.:yes:
  3. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    The CoS's are run on 'Stats' that's ALL they care about! Stats and Money, of course.....

    Trying to apply the 'Care for the Person in Front of You' policy was crap!!

    When you actually tried to DO that, you were RUSHED to 'reg' them to 'EP' of a sign-up or re-sign, for your STAT etc..*spits*

    Each week to 'earn your stats' started from each Thursday at 2:01:00 pm (in whatever Time Zone you were in) till 2:00:00.
    (believe me, EVERY nanosecond counted when we were desperately trying to increase and count our Stat, lol!).

    Then every week you had a Staff Meeting to 'show your graph/stats' in front of the entire group.

    I DO NOT miss that life AT ALL!!!

    God, for several years after routing out, we still used graphs to 'stat' our lives....sheesh.....

    NOT anymore tho! :D

    Wisened One

    Edited to add: Ok ok, Stats and the measuring of them aren't BAD....just the enforcing of them while 'in' WAS.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  4. seeking4know

    seeking4know Patron

    Now now here...

    There is nothing wrong with management by stats.

    If you are a business you want to know you are growing (selling more toilets for example) every year.

    Otherwise you can use the good olde, "yee i hope we doing good this week" tech, I do not suggest that one tho.

    Of course if you are in the business of freeing beings stats should be just that FREED BEINGS.

    That stopped a while back and was changed for "beings monies in our bank" stat, which has not done anything for scientology. This has actually set scientology back some 20 years.

  5. ChaoticPsychotic

    ChaoticPsychotic Patron with Honors

    Yay! I have been in Affluence since leaving Scientology!!!!:coolwink:

    Or is it confusion?

  6. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor


    The BEST that can be said about a statistic is that it INDICATES a TREND.

    There are a number of problems associated with the "meaning" of the statistic. Things like "what" to measure, "how" to measure, the various "real" world factors which contribute to the thing measured.

    There are in a fact a large number of factors having to do with measurements and the properties of numbers & especially probabilities & optimization which challenge the commonly held utility of "statistical measures".

    It is almost always mistake to attempt to opimize "globally" based on the opitimization of "local" measurements, for instance. This is because what is "peak" for a network is rarely the same as what is experienced as "peak" at each point of a network.

    It is however a comparatively easy management tool to assign the measurement of a statistic to an underling and then berate or reward the underling as the statistic "moves".

    It is also an excellent tool for managers who wish to avoid responsibility while at the same time exerting "control" over their areas.

    Then one OT is worth a continent of Class IV orgs. :)

    How about "auditors trained"? Or, happy parishioners? Or, prosperous staff? Or, .....

    Statistics are not "bad" of themselves. But due to their apparent "simplicity" and the appeal to many of them as being "modern" & "scientific" management techniques, they are often used to justify the replacement of judgement. "Statistics" too often are relied upon as an "automaticity".

    THAT is disastrous.

    Nor is it unknown outside of scientology. MBA programs love to teach "management by statistics".

    Mark A. Baker
  7. seeking4know

    seeking4know Patron

    Statistics give you conditions, then you actually DO the conditions.

    It is not on auto, if you are good at it you will actually have more "control" than the avegare Joe over his affairs. External factors or not you get a figure and you get a formula to follow (aka conditions)

    You learn yearly trends and prepare to promote before you actually start going down stat. And you prepare for the demand before you are over booked. Other people use it because it is succesful.

    It requires hard work to use conditions PROPERLY.

    There are irresponsible managers, agreed.

    But i have worked with and without stats both as a manager and as an emplyee and i can tell you from 10 years of my PERSONAL experience, nothing beats a good manager with a good understanding of stats and conditions.

    Then again... get ready... here it comes...

    RESPONSIBILITY!!! (that was the bomb!)

    Responsibility is that magical thing that differentiates the people who call it luck and the people who make "luck" happen.

    No disrespect to anyone, but responsibility is close to zero nowadays. Look at customer service and politics and people driving on the freeway.

    The CofS messed up, just like most other leaders in the world. The thing ex scientologists can hold against the CofS is that they ACTUALLY had the tech and still messed it up. That is all.

  8. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I think I remember him. :)
  9. nw2394

    nw2394 Silver Meritorious Patron

    Just 20? It is about 30 years since the days of monthly price hikes started. Prior to that point prices were, arguably, on the low side.

    I've got no problem with stats per se. They have to be the right ones though. And the business of making people do conditions based on weekly fluctuations in their stats was, in many cases, an unnecessary, arbitrary compression of time - and made the whole thing 'engramic'.

    It also made a staff MAA's/Dir I&Rs job effectively impossible as the SNA (staff in normal or above) was being computed on a total arbitrary - ethics is personal, self determined sort of thing if it is to work at all.

    The lunacy of simply using a one week trend on a graph (and only using one week trend) can be seen for example in the case of one LC at AOSH UK who was always upstat on libs week - and always downstat the other week. This person basically wanted saturday off and would fix the stat to ensure it. But, longer term, their graph was in a long term slide.

  10. seeking4know

    seeking4know Patron

    Sometimes monthly or quarterly or semi annual or yearly stats give one a better idea. It is like a microscope with various settings.

  11. sandygirl

    sandygirl Silver Meritorious Patron

    Ialways thought the whole stat thing without keeping your product in mind was ridiciulous!

    Examply: Weds nite-forcing a student to stay all nite to finish his course before Thurs. OK-now you have your comp and a tired customer who you not even sure understands what he was just pushed through! Never mind that the guy paid for this and he's not there for the Orgs stats! Now you want him to buy more?

    I never understood pushing peoply for a stat when they would get fed up and leave afterwards!
  12. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    It's like a lot of things in Scn. Has the basis of a good sound idea but it's carried out to ridiculous lengths to the point where it loses all meaning.

    Also, it's so often used as a punitive thing. As soon as you get that sort of thing, good luck finding any sense in the matter.
  13. seeking4know

    seeking4know Patron

    In the State of Man Congress LRH says at the end of lecture mmm...mmm... i think lecture 5, "who would be punitive when one can be effective."

    Again, this is a matter of the subject of "Scientology" against that 2.5% of Scientology's Management.

  14. crm1978

    crm1978 Patron with Honors

    Seems to me the problem with stats $cn style is when they become the be all end all of any activity .The other problem is that some things are easy to measure like income sales etc and others are harder like happyness spirituality etc. It also seems that it is a bit like standardized testing in public schools where things that may be most important like critical thinking real wisdom and others are not and can not be measured by that type of test The trap comes when the stat becomes everything and you stop seeing the "Big Picture"
  15. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Funny thread. I don't think in the cult terms of " upstat " or " downstat" or, God forbid, "conditions ".

    There are just far better ways to manage.

    That sais, I do sincerely hope the C o $ stays locked into their current management style and plans as it is way outdated and leads to do whatever in the short term to look good no matter how badly iy kills ones own future growth.

    I pray they keep doing what they are doing, but, sane people can't really afford to think that way.....and expect to survive for long.
  16. Jachs

    Jachs Gold Meritorious Patron

    If upstat do the ups and downs course for downstat do the ups and downs in life course.
  17. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Or vice versa
  18. Jachs

    Jachs Gold Meritorious Patron

    or conversely the other way,

    strangely i just read about "the ups and downs of life" in a book written 1804, seems it was factored in then, it was under a section called eventuality.

    didnt mention pulling it in.

    did mention the cofs main activity since the 50s, emergency & crisis

    how to counter emergencys & crisis with , (youl love this) "orders of the day" oods

    also mentioned situation, circumstance, event, incident, and hub bub . lol
  19. Mister Mike

    Mister Mike Patron

    I always thought the upstat/downstat/conditions thing was just the carrot and the stick to keep people on staff slogging through another week....I've heard of similar systems being used by other cults like Neo-Tech/Zon Power*, but they were far cruder: offering bonuses then welching on them, and other sleazy used car salesman-style schemes. Instead, Scientology has people breaking their backs for lines on a graph. It's an evil system, but it seems to be more efficient than others.


    *NT/ZP is what happens when a chemical engineer creates a philosophy around poker cheating, science-fiction, and Ayn Rand's Objectivism - the batshit insanity will blow your mind.
  20. Idle Morgue

    Idle Morgue Gold Meritorious Patron

    As a public and never on staff, I totally, unequivocally, absolutely, no doubt and with TOTAL CERTAINTY understand, duplicate and got it-that I was just a "STAT" and only a "STAT"! Now I am a STAT-ICK!

    I came in for HELP :begging:and ended up as a dot on some graph!:itstrue:
    WHERE'S THE LOVE?:console: It is not in the IDLE mORGue's!

    No panel can :love8::bighug::love2:and it I wonder if COB thinks that panels can replace people that care? :hug: Love to you all!! Even the Co$. They need it the most! :grouphug: