URGENT - help needed from those in Syd Org, 2000

[Terril park]

I'll just point out the obvious here, the org has admitted it was looking after toddlers, and yet the circumstances of the accident show that the org
premises were unfit for such a purpose, regardless of who were the baby sitters.

As far as I know that aspect hasn't been looked at by police or health and safety inspectors.

 

[byte301]

Done! Both OCMB and ESK.

Thank you!

 

[Carmel]

I'll just point out the obvious here, the org has admitted it was looking after toddlers, and yet the circumstances of the accident show that the org
premises were unfit for such a purpose, regardless of who were the baby sitters.

As far as I know that aspect hasn't been looked at by police or health and safety inspectors.

It is now, Terril, by police and Parliament. Also, one of the agenda items for the proposed Inquiry, is concerning the violation of OH&S standards set in this country.

 

[anon2487]

Regarding what Terril said, if people have photos or videos of themselves in the Org, or their kids playing there, or just any other shots that could potentially document aspects of the health and safety provision at that time (or shortly afterwards). It could potentially be useful evidence.

 

[anon2487]

...Also, one of the agenda items for the proposed Inquiry, is concerning the violation of OH&S standards set in this country.

This is another area that Larry Brennan's affidavit directly relates to, as he's very clear, that the organisation knew that their administrative policies, flew in the face of many many laws, and religious cloaking was seen as a means of evading proper oversight.

[IANAL, but clearly this is one of the most (politically) contentious areas to attack. However in most people's minds, there is at least a clear separation between administrative practice and religious practice, (however tangled the reality actually is within the CofS)]

 

[Fancy]

In the Buffalo orgs the kids ran free. Not much supervision if any. My mom used to watch the Perkins kids.

We kept suggesting a Nanny or a baby watcher but they said they have to get a state license to do so.

So they did not so I imagine it the same in orgs world wide.

Also, what would be helpful is anyone who has direct knowledge of the CofS Sydney Day and FDN (or any org in Aussie for that matter), in regard to child minding promoted and given when various functions were held.

We are wanting info in regard to:

- Orgs promoting child care facilites to get people to org functions, and the standard of those facilities at the time.

- The room/space where the kids were being minded that day, and the level or safety of the that room or space.

- Whether Paul/Scooter was posted as a nanny that day, or on post as Qual Sec, which included being the examiner.

- The incident itself.

I have some data/eye witness accounts already, but we need more. There are aspects of it which aren't covered. Your trust won't be betrayed by Paul or myself..... Any and all data is valuable.......and you can tell us what we are permitted to do with it and/or divulge. I promise you that we'll stick to that.

If ya want the abuses and crimes to stop, then please come foreward.....you won't be put in jeopardy for doing so.

Thanks,
Carmel

 

[Anonycat]

Came for the thread, back for the BUMP.

 

[AnonyMary]

.

Carmel, I don't know if this will be of help but it's not the first time a child has been hurt while under the care of a scientology 'nanny'

Beau Jacob Karnovsky was 2 when he was found floating and unresponsive in a pool at the Sand Castle while his parents were over at the FSO building. According to the news clips about it, another scientology child saw him in the pool and didn't bother to alert an adult because he thought the child could swim like his other sibling could. Later on, an adult came by and pulled him out of the pool and got some water out of his lungs but he was not breathing. An ambulance was called and Beau was put on a ventalator to breath.

There was a babysitter/ nanny that was suppposed to be watching him when this happened. You know, the org sets this stuff so the parent can get into session. I believe the father, Bill Karnovsky was on OT IV and wife Susan Diaz-Karnovsky was on a similar level getting auditing as well. I heard they didn't even use the Sand Castle's insurance coverage to cover any of the expenses. I never heard what came of Beau but I don't believe he died. Just brain damaged.

Here are some of the newspaper clips about it:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library.php?t=Beau+Jacob+Karnovsky

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-1986c-1.pdf#page=9
http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-1986c-1.pdf#page=10

I remember people talking about it saying that the child was in the care of a nanny who didn't speak english well. This nanny was blamed for what happened but there are no lawsuits that I know of. The parents stayed in scientology and are still, it seems, still in. http://www.tampabait.com/NEW.html

I wish you all the best on this matter.

 

[Zinjifar]

I'll just point out the obvious here, the org has admitted it was looking after toddlers, and yet the circumstances of the accident show that the org
premises were unfit for such a purpose, regardless of who were the baby sitters.

As far as I know that aspect hasn't been looked at by police or health and safety inspectors.

Let me point out something else 'obvious':

Since, per Ron, kids are just 'thetans in little bodies' then *they* are responsible for what they pull in and it would be out-tech for an Org to spend valuable time making things 'safe' for them.

Zinj

 

[Markus]

Let me point out something else 'obvious':

Since, per Ron, kids are just 'thetans in little bodies' then *they* are responsible for what they pull in and it would be out-tech for an Org to spend valuable time making things 'safe' for them. Yes exactly!

Zinj

Markus

 

[Miss Withhold]

Also, what would be helpful is anyone who has direct knowledge of the CofS Sydney Day and FDN (or any org in Aussie for that matter), in regard to child minding promoted and given when various functions were held.

We are wanting info in regard to:

- Orgs promoting child care facilites to get people to org functions, and the standard of those facilities at the time.

- The room/space where the kids were being minded that day, and the level or safety of the that room or space.

- Whether Paul/Scooter was posted as a nanny that day, or on post as Qual Sec, which included being the examiner.

- The incident itself.

I was on staff at ACT in 2000 when this incident occcured. I heard it on ABC news on my way to post. The news reports were very basic- A baby had fallen from the second floor at the Church of Scientology Sydney and had been taken by ambulance to hospital.

I was of course rather distressed and asked the ED- Andrew McGowan- if he knew anymore. Per his briefing the baby was being babysat when she crawled under the railings at the stairs and fell. I was told that her parents were attending Sunday Service.

This made perfect sence as only a short time prior to this the 'Sunday Service' program had been issued into all orgs and was being PUSHED. It was the new handling for orgs and it was constant harrassment to get this thing going. This was a program that was run by the PES, which at the time was the lovely Ana D - Sir Facer.

I am certain Ana will remember this well. Part of the program was to hold the service and do whatever it took to get those public in there including babysitting.
Babysitting was a very normal thing to offer at the org. ACTs babysitter was usually Guy Barton who would have been around 16 at the time. The dedicated space was in the back admin area which also had a stairwell in it but of course this was never a thought for any of us.
My 12 year old can still clearly remember being babysat in the org with all the other scio kids during Sunday Service, Graduation or any other event.
According to her alot of the time there was no adult watching them.

Anyways I hope this helps.

 

[tgack]

What about this one ?

I happen to live in Denmark, and I clearly remember when this happened :

http://www.whyaretheydead.info/others/twinbabies.html
http://www.skeptictank.org/cosmurs2.htm

For days I was actually in a state of chock, because I had not in my wildest nightmares imagined that this could happen.

Even though I had been away from $cn for more than 10 years at that time, I still had relatives in there, and some of them just had to be very close to what happened.

I don't know what happened later on with the canadian Hiver parents, and the Nanny was probably sentenced to some kind of psychiatric treatment. She's probably no longer in Denmark.

Some years ago I was contacted by Andreas from OCMB, who had been asked by some Hiver-relatives from Canada if he possibly could trace the Nanny. I tried to help, but had no chance through official channels, her name was Ludmila Vassilieva.

I don't know if this can be of any use for the Australia-matters, but I think it gives just another good picture of how irresponsible such matters as child-care are taken care of in this so-called "church".

 

[PerfectRecall]

Are United States emails of Orgs promoting child care facilites of any use?

 

[Doom]

First of all, this is the most impersonal and callous steaming pile I have ever seen, shows just how much they really care about this subject.
Nobody from the CofS was willing to put a name on it? Why didn't Virginia sign it herself(she didnt believe it herself or just didnt want to get nailed for Lying)
This document would not stand up in court or any other investigation.
It is just a piece of paper with writing on it, no heart, no proof and no signature.
I am guessing that the statement about coronial procedures is a half truth, because they must be experts in it themselves.

Its just pure PR drivell.

 

[Terril park]

Further comments:-

“This claim is false,” Ms Stewart said. “Two witness statements attest that Lauren was in
the care of her father, Paul Schofield and three teenagers, at the time of the accident.
“She was not wandering the stairs by herself but rather walked to the top of the stairs
while she and a group of small children were being moved from one room to another,
under close supervision.
“Both witness statements clearly attest that Paul Schofield was a matter of a few metres
from his daughter when she fell down a flight of stairs."

Is Ms Stewart claiming Paul was a designated baby sitter and not the qual sec and on post? If he was a baby sitter he could have done this more safely at home.

Close supervision? What bollocks!

How come there was the possibility for this terrible accident. Clearly
" 4 supervisors, including Dad "was insufficient.

So the place must be a death trap for toddlers!!

DON'T TELL LIES IN PR.

Will come back to bite.

 

[Carmel]

Carmel, I don't know if this will be of help but it's not the first time a child has been hurt while under the care of a scientology 'nanny'

Beau Jacob Karnovsky was 2 when he was found floating and unresponsive in a pool at the Sand Castle while his parents were over at the FSO building. According to the news clips about it, another scientology child saw him in the pool and didn't bother to alert an adult because he thought the child could swim like his other sibling could. Later on, an adult came by and pulled him out of the pool and got some water out of his lungs but he was not breathing. An ambulance was called and Beau was put on a ventalator to breath.

There was a babysitter/ nanny that was suppposed to be watching him when this happened. You know, the org sets this stuff so the parent can get into session. I believe the father, Bill Karnovsky was on OT IV and wife Susan Diaz-Karnovsky was on a similar level getting auditing as well. I heard they didn't even use the Sand Castle's insurance coverage to cover any of the expenses. I never heard what came of Beau but I don't believe he died. Just brain damaged.

Here are some of the newspaper clips about it:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library.php?t=Beau+Jacob+Karnovsky

http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-1986c-1.pdf#page=9
http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-1986c-1.pdf#page=10

I remember people talking about it saying that the child was in the care of a nanny who didn't speak english well. This nanny was blamed for what happened but there are no lawsuits that I know of. The parents stayed in scientology and are still, it seems, still in. http://www.tampabait.com/NEW.html

I wish you all the best on this matter.

I was on staff at ACT in 2000 when this incident occcured. I heard it on ABC news on my way to post. The news reports were very basic- A baby had fallen from the second floor at the Church of Scientology Sydney and had been taken by ambulance to hospital.

I was of course rather distressed and asked the ED- Andrew McGowan- if he knew anymore. Per his briefing the baby was being babysat when she crawled under the railings at the stairs and fell. I was told that her parents were attending Sunday Service.

This made perfect sence as only a short time prior to this the 'Sunday Service' program had been issued into all orgs and was being PUSHED. It was the new handling for orgs and it was constant harrassment to get this thing going. This was a program that was run by the PES, which at the time was the lovely Ana D - Sir Facer.

I am certain Ana will remember this well. Part of the program was to hold the service and do whatever it took to get those public in there including babysitting.
Babysitting was a very normal thing to offer at the org. ACTs babysitter was usually Guy Barton who would have been around 16 at the time. The dedicated space was in the back admin area which also had a stairwell in it but of course this was never a thought for any of us.
My 12 year old can still clearly remember being babysat in the org with all the other scio kids during Sunday Service, Graduation or any other event.
According to her alot of the time there was no adult watching them.

Anyways I hope this helps.

I happen to live in Denmark, and I clearly remember when this happened :

http://www.whyaretheydead.info/others/twinbabies.html
http://www.skeptictank.org/cosmurs2.htm

For days I was actually in a state of chock, because I had not in my wildest nightmares imagined that this could happen.

Even though I had been away from $cn for more than 10 years at that time, I still had relatives in there, and some of them just had to be very close to what happened.

I don't know what happened later on with the canadian Hiver parents, and the Nanny was probably sentenced to some kind of psychiatric treatment. She's probably no longer in Denmark.

Some years ago I was contacted by Andreas from OCMB, who had been asked by some Hiver-relatives from Canada if he possibly could trace the Nanny. I tried to help, but had no chance through official channels, her name was Ludmila Vassilieva.

I don't know if this can be of any use for the Australia-matters, but I think it gives just another good picture of how irresponsible such matters as child-care are taken care of in this so-called "church".

Are United States emails of Orgs promoting child care facilites of any use?

All of this info is valuable, and we can use it.

Can I ask though, that you chase up those who have first hand info on it (if there are any you know of besides yourself), and/or provide any other details, and get it all sent to me (with any scanned docs) via email, so I can forward it on. This way, the powers that be can see who it came from (as opposed to just receiving a cut and paste from me) [email protected]

Thanks, C

 

[anon2487]

Have been going through CofS's past litigation history, and came across a '94 Florida case that *may* be relevant (even though they were neither plaintiff nor defendant in the matter).

A Scientologist by the name of Donald Strawn raped his step daughter. His wife, the mother of the child concerned, found out that this had occurred, as did the Church.

The mother's testimony, makes it clear that the Church exerted considerable pressure for the matter to be "handled internally," to avoid potential "bad PR," whereas she wanted for him to rightly be prosecuted.

The case was State of Florida vs. Donald A. Strawn, [SPN 00757024], and was heard in Pinellas County.

I've snipped some of the potentially relevant material, and posted it below:

18 A. For six weeks I tried to get him thrown out
19 of the church so that I could turn him in without any
20 repercussions. I worked with the Church of
21 Scientology's legal office. It's called the Office of
22 Special Affairs or OSA, O-S-A.
23 I worked with the Church of Scientology for
24 quite some time. Many days I was down there, as a
25 matter of fact, trying to get them to take some kind

1 of action. The Church of Scientology recommended that
2 I not turn him in.
3 Q. Why?
4 A. Because they could handle it. They could
5 handle his aberrations. They could handle what made
6 him do this. They said that if I, if I turned him in
7 my children would be taken away from me by HRS because
8 HRS is always looking for a criminal. They told me
9 that Tony would be stuck to me for lifetimes because I
10 had done this, because I had turned him in. They told
11 me that he would be turned over to the "psyches," or
12 the psychiatrists. I was very manipulated during that
13 period of time.

12 Q. Okay. So you wanted to go through the
13 church?
14 A. I had to. I had to go through the church.
15 The Church of Scientology has a tenet to the best of
16 my knowledge and the way I understood it, if you have
17 any legal matter with a fellow Scientologist you're to
18 take it to the Church of Scientology.
19 If you don't, you risk being what is called
20 "Declared" or thrown out of the Church of Scientology.
21 Now that matters nothing to me. But what did matter to
22 me was the fact that I was working as a director in a
23 company, and the owners of the company are
24 Scientologists. In fact, many of the employees, the
25 majority of employees, are Scientologists...

3 Q. How long had you been working there?
4 A. At that time, three years.
5 Q. Okay. So you thought your job might be in
6 jeopardy?
7 A. My job was in jeopardy because what happens
8 is if you're declared or thrown out of the church then
9 other Scientologist cannot be in touch with you. They
10 can't talk to you. They can't have, you know, have
11 anything to do with you or they risk being thrown out
12 of the church.

She then divorced the guy, which is quite a sickening story in itself: carried out as is it was by a CofS "Chaplain's hearing."

6 Q. Okay. After you got the divorce papers
7 signed did you continue to participate in the
8 Scientologist activities?
9 A. At, at that point I was still trying to get
10 them to throw him out of the church. I finally had a
11 conversation with Ken Long (phonetic), he's with the

1
12 Office of Special Affairs International with the Church
13 of Scientology. And I asked him point blank.
14 I said, If I turn him in, even if he's
15 declared, would I be declared.
16 And he said, Most definitely. Not for the
17 act of turning him in itself but for the repercussions
18 thereof.
19 He was talking about the PR, the public
20 relations and the St. Pete Times, news media.

Separate to that, does anyone have the reference for the "tenet" that stops practising Scientologists from testifying against one another in courts of law, (or whatever it actually is)? As I would have thought that that could potentially be relevant in this case too, (assuming that Church witnesses give false testimony).

 

[Kookaburra]

<snip>

Separate to that, does anyone have the reference for the "tenet" that stops practising Scientologists from testifying against one another in courts of law, (or whatever it actually is)? As I would have thought that that could potentially be relevant in this case too, (assuming that Church witnesses give false testimony).

I don't have it but I can confirm it does exist. You should find it in the green OEC vols, Volume one.

 

[Feral]

From the Ethics book;

Suppressive acts section

Bringing civil suit against any scientology organisation or scientologist including the non payment of bills or failure to refund, without first calling the matter to the attention of the IJC and receiving a reply.

Repoting or threatening to report Scientology or Scientologists to civil authorities in an effort to supress Scientology or Scientologists from from practicing or receiving standard scientology.

I know these are not exactly saying it's 'illegal' but I've experienced that a high crime is any interpretation of these vague laws that OSA or HCO sees fit to declare.

 

[Carmel]

From the Ethics book;

Suppressive acts section

Bringing civil suit against any scientology organisation or scientologist including the non payment of bills or failure to refund, without first calling the matter to the attention of the IJC and receiving a reply.

Repoting or threatening to report Scientology or Scientologists to civil authorities in an effort to supress Scientology or Scientologists from from practicing or receiving standard scientology.

I know these are not exactly saying it's illegal but I've experienced tha a high crime is any interpretation of these vague laws that OSA or HCO sees fit to declare.

And what I've bolded above is bull - Ya just aren't permitted to take *anything* outside the "justice system" of the CofS.