VV: Scientology - Mike Rinder on "The Hole," Indoctrination, Confessions, ...

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I don't think anyone believes that DM was solely responsible for the Lisa tragedy, just that he played a definite part in it. (At least, that's how I view it.)
 
I don't think anyone believes that DM was solely responsible for the Lisa tragedy, just that he played a definite part in it. (At least, that's how I view it.)

Absolutely not. But the need to self-justify winds up shaping the public reports, and thus popular mythology; both in this as well as in other matters. Witness Rathbun's blogging. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Ortega and Rinder

Hey GB,
You may well know "Mate". He may wish to comment. You should
search out other info on this issue. There is other info.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
I don't think anyone believes that DM was solely responsible for the Lisa tragedy, just that he played a definite part in it. (At least, that's how I view it.)

That's definitely how I view it, too, Panda. However, in another post someone else claimed she was doing well until DM took over. Extremely unlikely, considering some of Hubbard's horrendous medieval Type 3 handling policies and cruel isolation techniques.

Nothing like forced physical imprisonment with complete sensory, social and communication deprivation to "help" a person improve. It would be nice if some of these people would come around and apologise for being so stupid as to enforce such barbaric methods on traumatised individuals, rather than say things like "the tech is great! It was just DM!"

Makes me :puke: Too many people ended up dead or traumatised by these techniques.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Re: Ortega and Rinder

Hey GB,
You may well know "Mate". He may wish to comment. You should
search out other info on this issue. There is other info.

He is welcome to comment. This is not an attack on him personally.

He does not state he personally observed or overheard any of the C/Ses. I am not calling him a liar.

What he HAS done is made a great deal of conjecture on what he has not personally observed. I would be very interested in his personal observations only - minus any conjecture.

Would also love to see the issues where these people were busted just to compare dates and posts.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: Ortega and Rinder

Mark, I don't disagree with you, but I don't know they actually decided that or planned it or even personally want it ... . I personally believe that these guys are doing most of what they are doing to make right the bad shit they did, right or wrong, good or bad methods, say what you will about their intentions ... my opinion ... that is what they are doing. I am not saying everything they are doing is right or wrong, I am just saying this is my opinion as their friends, and I am the first to admit we are three highly imperfect friends.

And who is to say anyone first coming out of the cult makes intelligent decisions on anything? Sometimes once things are in play, it is very difficult to change. And, though I haven't had this discussion with them, I bet if they were to review things from their ever evolving perspective, they would have done things differently. Thats life. Thats personal growth and development and healing.

I am going to piss a lot of people off with this comment, but fuck it. I believe one of the key problems many exes have, and ex SO, and I mean more the sheep ones, not all, but many in the independent community, is a need for a leader or hero or figurehead to follow and worship ... I don't know they even realize it. First it was Ron, then DM, now they are out, and looking for the next great hope ... Marty, then Mike, then Debbie ... I have even noticed people on boards following packs ... I am not sure if this is a human trait, or scilon created or both.

Reminds me of one of my old working theories on life ... three different types of people ... sheep, sheppard and wolves.


I think you are projecting.

Some people do just follow and some people exploit - Marty is an exploiter. Miscavige is a bully. But most people are just that - people. Individual and usually with traits of all kinds.

No sheep, no shepherds, no wolves. Just people.

As for Mike's interview? Not impressed. 25 years of covering up the crimes and doing the dirty for Rathbun and Miscavige - and that's his best?

I am sure it has impressed you though - wow, haven't seen that many posts from you in a while.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Ortega and Rinder

And an excellent reason why an intelligent person might want to rethink intentionally putting himself into a role as a 'public figure' until he can actually face up to the facts of his life.


Mark A. Baker

Mea culpa

I did this because I was being pushed to "go public" with my story because it was so horrific (compared to anything else that had hit the media at that time) and I certainly wouldn't have done it the same way now that I've a few years more decompression behind me. But I was so used to taking orders from others as a cultie that I just did it without any real thought after I'd allowed myself to be regged into it.

There is a tremendous burden of "responsibility" that long-timers have - we've been in the trenches doing it for the planet for so long we expect to be slaving ourselves to death for the Cause, even if the Cause has become destroying the last Cause we were on.

It's something that ease off with time and I reckon it'll ease off with Mike and Marty even more as time rolls by. I can see the decompression from where they were to now and I think this is another step in Mr Rinder's recovery (if I may be so pompous:biggrin:)
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Ortega and Rinder

Mark, I don't disagree with you, but I don't know they actually decided that or planned it or even personally want it ... . I personally believe that these guys are doing most of what they are doing to make right the bad shit they did, right or wrong, good or bad methods, say what you will about their intentions ... my opinion ... that is what they are doing. I am not saying everything they are doing is right or wrong, I am just saying this is my opinion as their friends, and I am the first to admit we are three highly imperfect friends.

And who is to say anyone first coming out of the cult makes intelligent decisions on anything? Sometimes once things are in play, it is very difficult to change. And, though I haven't had this discussion with them, I bet if they were to review things from their ever evolving perspective, they would have done things differently. Thats life. Thats personal growth and development and healing.

I am going to piss a lot of people off with this comment, but fuck it. I believe one of the key problems many exes have, and ex SO, and I mean more the sheep ones, not all, but many in the independent community, is a need for a leader or hero or figurehead to follow and worship ... I don't know they even realize it. First it was Ron, then DM, now they are out, and looking for the next great hope ... Marty, then Mike, then Debbie ... I have even noticed people on boards following packs ... I am not sure if this is a human trait, or scilon created or both.

Reminds me of one of my old working theories on life ... three different types of people ... sheep, sheppard and wolves.

Mike, you've been reading my mind again:omg:

I posted this on "Ask the Scientologist" yesterday:

"True Believers are always on a Crusade of some sort. And so the Infidels must be stopped. Period.

"I think Marty has loosened up quite a lot but his "Choir" still demand the Crusade be kept pure. Mike Rinder said the fatal flaw for Scientology was it created followers, not leaders. This was posted on Marty's blog by Mike Laws and not denied by Rinder. That's a pretty accurate summation of The Bridge to Total Freedom for mine.

"That just says to me that the Faithful will DEMAND censorship to protect themselves from their cognitive dissonance. As they individually live more and more outside the bubble, they'll decompress (or not) and stop censoring themselves. Then maybe they'll stop demanding others censor for them."
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I was interested to hear of Rinder's escape. I would like to understand where Ronnie & Bitty fit into the bigger picture.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
That's definitely how I view it, too, Panda. However, in another post someone else claimed she was doing well until DM took over. Extremely unlikely, considering some of Hubbard's horrendous medieval Type 3 handling policies and cruel isolation techniques.

Nothing like forced physical imprisonment with complete sensory, social and communication deprivation to "help" a person improve. It would be nice if some of these people would come around and apologise for being so stupid as to enforce such barbaric methods on traumatised individuals, rather than say things like "the tech is great! It was just DM!"

Makes me :puke: Too many people ended up dead or traumatised by these techniques.



Bottom line: The tech as implemented by on-purpose KSW Scientologists killed Lisa McPherson.
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
Fascinating to watch this.

It's interesting that most ex-scientologists seem wonderful people (defined as people I'd get along with:)), yet somehow this LRH "tech" or whatever you term it, turned them for periods into ... probably what Xenu, if he had really existed, would have loved.:omg:
 
Fascinating to watch this.

It's interesting that most ex-scientologists seem wonderful people (defined as people I'd get along with:)), yet somehow this LRH "tech" or whatever you term it, turned them for periods into ... probably what Xenu, if he had really existed, would have loved.:omg:

It's the church culture, not the tech.


Mark A. Baker
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
Mark - do you think the culture was shaped by LRH as a grand strategy of control or merely "accidentally" "evolved" into what it became under DM etc.?
 

StickbyMe

Patron with Honors
It's the church culture, not the tech.


Mark A. Baker

The line is a thin one. The Church culture is, in at least some form, what LRH himself set up. He could just have easily written a policy letter saying "Do not hit, curse at or imprison people who are trying to fight the good fight on my behalf," but he didn't. What keeps my boss from treating me like seniors do in Scientology? Maybe it's because he's a nicer person, or maybe it's because he lives in a society where the rules and mores prohibit you from abusing your juniors. There are no such prohibitions in Scientology. Rather, there is a top down culture of abuse, and it's perpetuated by the dual assumptions that they are A) helping to save the world and so all actions toward this goal are justified and B) any failure to perform as expected is tied to one's own past evil acts. If you really DID hold the key to saving the world and you really were committing overts against that technology, you probably would deserve to be yelled at and beaten. Unfortunately neither of those things are true.
 
Mark - do you think the culture was shaped by LRH as a grand strategy of control or merely "accidentally" "evolved" into what it became under DM etc.?

Hubbard picked up his attitudes from the culture in which he was raised. As to the church ....

Monkey See, Monkey do.

Too many people asking 'what would ron do' and wanting to be just like ron.


Mark A. Baker
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
"Rather, there is a top down culture of abuse"

This is what I've witnessed at my job, though lately I sense the leader (bit WISE guy) is maybe having second thoughts as he realizes the books may not bring about the desired results.

I kind of fear for him in a way, because if his world is shattered, he's likely to crumble, given the absolute certaintly COS imparts to the rabid followers.

My take is he's 20% human, 80% ronbot but you sense there might be a core of humanity there worth saving.
 
The line is a thin one. The Church culture is, in at least some form, what LRH himself set up. ...

Nonetheless not every idea espoused by a person is a result of their reasoning mind. Most are the result of cultural bias, emotional reactions, and personal bias. The tech of scientology is a different thing from the opinions of hubbard.

The culture that has grown up in the church stems from the idolization of hubbard which was the common practice within the church even though it was not actually a feature of the tech of scientology.

As an example from a different culture, tradition of 'honor killings' observed in many traditional tribal cultures observing Islam has absolutely nothing to do with the religion of Islam, although religious conservatives in those cultures are the one's most likely to justify it on religious grounds.


Mark A. Baker
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
"Hubbard picked up his attitudes from the culture in which he was raised."

In a way, isn't this scarier then envisioning DM or LRH as a super-villain? It's almost if a self-replicating virus was let loose on the internet and had nothing to do with humanity but nothing could stop it.:omg:
 

lurkanon

Patron with Honors
Re: Ortega and Rinder

Thank you very much!

It is all just too convenient to write this down and put events together in such a way that only DM was responsible when nearly all of what Mate wrote here is just conjecture. Not ONCE does David give testimony or detail of a single C/S instruction that he has heard or observed or seen by DM or for that matter, anyone else, on Lisa's folder. He did not personally know.

You are on the right track here. There are people - five at least - who SAW Lisa McPherson's folders, albeit culled, at the early stages of the trial. Those 5 people know what was in the folders.

Lisa was suicidal after her Sunshine Rundown. Repairs were run. What was bothering her was the "outethics" of her employer, Beneta Slaughter, and Lisa was troubled by them. On that origination in her pc folder, was written in red ink:

"BS is an upstat OT8 in good standing", with a note "Route to Ethics".

So, following Lisa's originations that she was bothered by what she had seen of BS's unethical business practices, she became a target for Ethics, because of what she knew. After that, Lisa's folders indicated that she was being pushed deeper and deeper into psychosis.

Many people were involved, and not only DM.

There are 5 people, out of the Church, ostensibly critics, who saw those folders. Yet not one of them has come forward to testify about this.

There is something very, very wrong and unresolved with the Lisa McPherson case, and Mike Rinder and Marty DEFINITELY know more. As do five others. Of the five others, only one is still a public critic, the other four are quiet.

Until Mike and Marty come clean with full disclosure about what happened to Lisa, they cannot expect their karma to resolve, and Lisa McPherson will continue to haunt them.
 
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