VV: Scientology - Mike Rinder on "The Hole," Indoctrination, Confessions, ...

[Mike Laws]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

Tony did a great job. Mike's unindoctrination is coming along nicely.

Good for him.

I agree Pooks.

 

[Mike Laws]

How'd he get on the BC? Pre-reqs included Class IV, or Clear.

He was on the Academy Levels, I'm pretty sure.

Paul

I believe you are right Paul, it was his Class 4 Internship, from memory, where he slapped his PC in session "because of his asthma meds" ending his tech training. I am 99.5% certain he never did his BC.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

... Mike is really, barely, 2-3 years into a process in my experience that takes 5-10 at best for lifetimers/ex kids. But unfortunately, he is also a public figure, which IMHO makes the healing process and recovery much more difficult, perspectives swing and change radically in the recovery process, if he expresses such publicly he is called a liar, hypocrite, etc. It is impossibly to satisfy everyone, it is a position I wouldn't want to be in. ...

And an excellent reason why an intelligent person might want to rethink intentionally putting himself into a role as a 'public figure' until he can actually face up to the facts of his life.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mike Laws]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

And an excellent reason why an intelligent person might want to rethink intentionally putting himself into a role as a 'public figure' until he can actually face up to the facts of his life.


Mark A. Baker

Mark, I don't disagree with you, but I don't know they actually decided that or planned it or even personally want it ... . I personally believe that these guys are doing most of what they are doing to make right the bad shit they did, right or wrong, good or bad methods, say what you will about their intentions ... my opinion ... that is what they are doing. I am not saying everything they are doing is right or wrong, I am just saying this is my opinion as their friends, and I am the first to admit we are three highly imperfect friends.

And who is to say anyone first coming out of the cult makes intelligent decisions on anything? Sometimes once things are in play, it is very difficult to change. And, though I haven't had this discussion with them, I bet if they were to review things from their ever evolving perspective, they would have done things differently. Thats life. Thats personal growth and development and healing.

I am going to piss a lot of people off with this comment, but fuck it. I believe one of the key problems many exes have, and ex SO, and I mean more the sheep ones, not all, but many in the independent community, is a need for a leader or hero or figurehead to follow and worship ... I don't know they even realize it. First it was Ron, then DM, now they are out, and looking for the next great hope ... Marty, then Mike, then Debbie ... I have even noticed people on boards following packs ... I am not sure if this is a human trait, or scilon created or both.

Reminds me of one of my old working theories on life ... three different types of people ... sheep, sheppard and wolves.

 

[Sindy]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

And an excellent reason why an intelligent person might want to rethink intentionally putting himself into a role as a 'public figure' until he can actually face up to the facts of his life.


Mark A. Baker

I had this exact thought and then realized that no matter what the guy did, he would be criticized for it (rightly or wrongly).

IMO, there is enough desire for justice regarding the guy that had he gone off on his little lonesome and tried to keep a low profile, someone or many would have pried him out of that solitude and demanded some communication.

His public persona was created BEFORE he left. Having it afterward was unavoidable.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

Mark, I don't disagree with you, but I don't know they actually decided that or planned it or even personally want it ... . I personally believe that these guys are doing most of what they are doing to make right the bad shit they did, right or wrong, good or bad methods, say what you will about their intentions ... my opinion ... that is what they are doing. I am not saying everything they are doing is right or wrong, I am just saying this is my opinion as their friends, and I am the first to admit we are three highly imperfect friends. ...

Perhaps all the more reason for a pause to reflect?

... I am going to piss a lot of people off with this comment, but fuck it. I believe one of the key problems many exes have, and ex SO, and I mean more the sheep ones, not all, but many in the independent community, is a need for a leader or hero or figurehead to follow and worship ... I don't know they even realize it. First it was Ron, then DM, now they are out, and looking for the next great hope ... Marty, then Mike, then Debbie ... I have even noticed people on boards following packs ... I am not sure if this is a human trait, or scilon created or both.

Reminds me of one of my old working theories on life ... three different types of people ... sheep, sheppard and wolves.

You might enjoy this.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mike Laws]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I had this exact thought and then realized that no matter what the guy did, he would be criticized for it (rightly or wrongly).

IMO, there is enough desire for justice regarding the guy that had he gone off on his little lonesome and tried to keep a low profile, someone or many would have pried him out of that solitude and demanded some communication.

His public persona was created BEFORE he left. Having it afterward was unavoidable.

Absolutely excellent point Sindy, very astute.

 

[phénix]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

Yeah looks like he's on the right track, getting his mind working on his own...
But I can't imagine what it's like to get out after SO many years and all his life in scn!!
It's hard enough for me just a few years in the SO...
Hope he'll end up condamning the whole thing and not just DM

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I had this exact thought and then realized that no matter what the guy did, he would be criticized for it (rightly or wrongly).

IMO, there is enough desire for justice regarding the guy that had he gone off on his little lonesome and tried to keep a low profile, someone or many would have pried him out of that solitude and demanded some communication.

His public persona was created BEFORE he left. Having it afterward was unavoidable.

Absolutely excellent point Sindy, very astute.

...and isn't that, more or less, exactly what happened?

 

[Gottabrain]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I think you might have missed the point being made. The COS was/is so compartmentalized that even though M&M worked on the McPherson case for some 4 years, neither of them knew the full "technical" history, that DM personally CSed her folders, made the clear declare, etc. in effort to show off to one of his whales, her employer; Benetta Slaughter. It wasn't until just a couple years ago where M&M and other high level exes from Flag got together and started sharing their own experiences in the story, that the pieces came together. After her death, Marty was sent to "fix it" and Mike got involved again. Other execs that used to run around with DM at Flag doing his Ron famous "FOLDERS!" CSing impersonation.

This getting together with others to come up with an agreed history just adds to the lies and I don't like it a bit.

Particularly when one such as Mike Rinder or Marty Rathbun states such things as "fact" as if they have personally observed this when they have not.

The person stating they had personal access to the folders and that Lisa was personally C/Sed by David Miscaviage throughout needs to come forward and give this as testimony. I say hogwash - there may have been a few personal C/Ses, but no, plenty of others were involved in this and they are being whitewashed away as innocent.

The "Nobody did anything seriously wrong except DM" mindset is a great way for the people involved in these criminal actions to get away with it. No no no, I don't buy it. There are far too many testimonies about terrible things done by others in high positions besides DM - and that is throughout the history of Scn, too.

 

[SpecialFrog]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I had this exact thought and then realized that no matter what the guy did, he would be criticized for it (rightly or wrongly).

IMO, there is enough desire for justice regarding the guy that had he gone off on his little lonesome and tried to keep a low profile, someone or many would have pried him out of that solitude and demanded some communication.

His public persona was created BEFORE he left. Having it afterward was unavoidable.

While some people may have always regarded him that way I'm not sure it's representative.

Marty appears to have happily disappeared for quite a while before he popped up and declared himself to be the saviour of Scientology. People wondered what happened to him but I don't think there was a manhunt going on.

Also Pat Broeker seems to have successfully disappeared and I'd say people want "The Whole Truth" from him even more than they do from Mike and Marty.

Wanting to get away from the subject entirely seems entirely sensible.

But fairly early on after leaving, Mike Rinder appears to have contacted John Sweeney and agreed to appear on camera with him. It made for a good story but unless Marty dragged him back into the limelight I do think he had a choice about it.

And personally, I am not bothered by the fact that he is not appearing to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm bothered by how he is positioning himself as the authority on the matter and denigrating others whose stories damage his narrative.

But even that last bit I find it hard to assess how much is Mike and how much is Marty.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

...

Personally, I am not looking for Mike to do an O/W writeup.

I am happy that he is doing (on a bypass) David Miscavich's O/W writeup.

I would be even more thrilled if he would do Ron Hubbard's O/W writeup, beginning with: "Top Lies, Bullshit & crimes that Ron Hubbard Committed".

In my book, anyone who blows the whistle on organized Scientology, including COB, LRH and the Bridge to Total Freedom is automatically exempted from having to write up or confess their own sins. It's the get out of jail free card.

Rinder is kinda cool in the fact that he always seems to be teetering just on the edge of going off on Marty and Hubbard too. I remember that "fishing video" where Rathbun suddenly goes on a mini rant about the wholetrack "implant" that David Miscavich is dramatizing. Mike kind of did an embarrassed mini-cringe and said "Whatever."

I kinda loved knowing that Mike sees that there is something terribly wrong with this awful space opera delusion.

Please Mike, do a rap video or something, will ya? Just let it out, boy, let it all out!!

 

[Gottabrain]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I am going to piss a lot of people off with this comment, but fuck it. I believe one of the key problems many exes have, and ex SO, and I mean more the sheep ones, not all, but many in the independent community, is a need for a leader or hero or figurehead to follow and worship ... I don't know they even realize it. First it was Ron, then DM, now they are out, and looking for the next great hope ... Marty, then Mike, then Debbie ... I have even noticed people on boards following packs ... I am not sure if this is a human trait, or scilon created or both.

Reminds me of one of my old working theories on life ... three different types of people ... sheep, sheppard and wolves.

Good point, Mike.

They were trained into the mindset. They were indoctrinated not to follow their own judgement and to believe their judgement is faulty. Otherwise, most of the people you are referring to would show a great deal more independent thought and action. The mindset needs to be changed first - almost impossible to do when a similar "placebo" leader is instantly offered as replacement. The individual loses the personal urgency to change his/her mindset - a very unpleasant affair that all must go through in order to recover.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

This getting together with others to come up with an agreed history just adds to the lies and I don't like it a bit.

Particularly when one such as Mike Rinder or Marty Rathbun states such things as "fact" as if they have personally observed this when they have not. ...

That's not so bad as when either reports as 'fact' that which is contrary to fact. Their deliberate tendency to continue the promotion of known lies is a far more justifiable reason to question their claims of honest intention than their promotion of their own 'dub-in' of past events, objectionable as that is.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gottabrain]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

That's not so bad as when either reports as 'fact' that which is contrary to fact. Their deliberate tendency to continue the promotion of known lies is far more justified reason for question their claims of honest intention than their promotion of their own 'dub-in' of past events, objectionable as that is.


Mark A. Baker

Thank you, Mark.

Unfortunate, but we have heaps of testimonies from others who are reliable and tell as much detailed fact of their experiences as possible, allowing us to draw conclusions - rather than starting with a conclusion and providing a general scenario to support that conclusion.

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

I just finished reading the article and watching the videos. I thought it was excellent and I'd like to see more.

Great job, Tony Ortega, and thanks for talking, Mike Rinder.

(I think still-in scios will get the message and, besides, I'm easily pleased.)

 

[Lone Star]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

...

Personally, I am not looking for Mike to do an O/W writeup.

I am happy that he is doing (on a bypass) David Miscavich's O/W writeup.

I would be even more thrilled if he would do Ron Hubbard's O/W writeup, beginning with: "Top Lies, Bullshit & crimes that Ron Hubbard Committed".

In my book, anyone who blows the whistle on organized Scientology, including COB, LRH and the Bridge to Total Freedom is automatically exempted from having to write up or confess their own sins. It's the get out of jail free card.

Rinder is kinda cool in the fact that he always seems to be teetering just on the edge of going off on Marty and Hubbard too. I remember that "fishing video" where Rathbun suddenly goes on a mini rant about the wholetrack "implant" that David Miscavich is dramatizing. Mike kind of did an embarrassed mini-cringe and said "Whatever."

I kinda loved knowing that Mike sees that there is something terribly wrong with this awful space opera delusion.

Please Mike, do a rap video or something, will ya? Just let it out, boy, let it all out!!

I have a gut feeling that eventually Mike will tell Marty to take a hike. No matter how much Mike tries to minimize the event now, Marty did after all beat the living shit out of him once. That has to stay with you. Plus, I think Mike is aware enough to know that Marty is a cult leader in the making. We'll just have to see. It's just a gut feeling...not based on anything concrete right now.

 

[Terril park]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

This getting together with others to come up with an agreed history just adds to the lies and I don't like it a bit.

Particularly when one such as Mike Rinder or Marty Rathbun states such things as "fact" as if they have personally observed this when they have not.

The person stating they had personal access to the folders and that Lisa was personally C/Sed by David Miscaviage throughout needs to come forward and give this as testimony. I say hogwash - there may have been a few personal C/Ses, but no, plenty of others were involved in this and they are being whitewashed away as innocent.

The "Nobody did anything seriously wrong except DM" mindset is a great way for the people involved in these criminal actions to get away with it. No no no, I don't buy it. There are far too many testimonies about terrible things done by others in high positions besides DM - and that is throughout the history of Scn, too.

That DM C/Sed Lisa is somewhat old info.

This is an old post from our "Mate" aka David Graham. From this forum.
It is nhot the only record of theswe events.

================

"I knew Alain well. I was a C/S under him when he was the Lead C/S in the Case Cracking Unit in the FSO. At the time he was considered as one of the best of the Class XII auditors. IMO, he was an an extremely good C/S in case repairs. It was a pleasure to work under him and his expert guidance.

At the time of the Lisa McPherson death, he was the Senior C/S for the Class XII unit, and would have had the title of Deputy Senior C/S FSO. The C/S on the Lisa McPherson case was the late Peter Buttery, and auditor was David Gellie. However, the Senior C/S FSO office was for some strange reason, bypassing both Peter Buttery and Alain Kartuzinski, putting them both into danger. The Senior C/S FSO was and still is, Richard Reiss, however at the time of Lisa McPherson's breakdown, David Miscavige was present the the Senior C/S FSO Office, instructing Reiss. As David Miscavige had demoted Ray Mithoff from RTC Inspector General (tech) to Snr C/S Int and then removed him from that post, then as Inspector General, David Miscavige held Snr C/S Int (Held From Above), which resulted in Reiss following his instruction. As a direct result, there was "GROSS OUT-TECH", such as evaluation and wrong indications and "out-Lists".

As a result, David Gellie, Peter Buttery, and Alain Kartuzinski were removed permanently from tech lines with all their certificates cancelled, and Alain had to admit he was telling lies, when he was in fact, following subsequent instructions from David Miscavige.

As you may have gathered, Alain was French and came from a very wealthy family in the shoe industry. He was multilingual, which would account, in part, for his success as a Class XII auditor.

Alain is now at peace and getting ready for his next project. And it wont be scientology, because the total scientology organisation will have been consigned to a part of history well before he returns. This has been foretold.

Alain, it was a pleasure knowing you this lifetime, and I look forward to meeting you again some time in the future.

Fondest Regards, David. "

 

[Gottabrain]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

That DM C/Sed Lisa is somewhat old info.

This is an old post from our "Mate" aka David Graham. From this forum.
It is nhot the only record of theswe events.

================

"I knew Alain well. I was a C/S under him ... At the time of the Lisa McPherson death, he was the Senior C/S for the Class XII unit, and would have had the title of Deputy Senior C/S FSO. The C/S on the Lisa McPherson case was the late Peter Buttery, and auditor was David Gellie. However, the Senior C/S FSO office was for some strange reason, bypassing both Peter Buttery and Alain Kartuzinski, putting them both into danger. The Senior C/S FSO was and still is, Richard Reiss, however at the time of Lisa McPherson's breakdown, David Miscavige was present the the Senior C/S FSO Office, instructing Reiss. As David Miscavige had demoted Ray Mithoff from RTC Inspector General (tech) to Snr C/S Int and then removed him from that post, then as Inspector General, David Miscavige held Snr C/S Int (Held From Above), which resulted in Reiss following his instruction. As a direct result, there was "GROSS OUT-TECH", such as evaluation and wrong indications and "out-Lists".

As a result, David Gellie, Peter Buttery, and Alain Kartuzinski were removed permanently from tech lines with all their certificates cancelled, and Alain had to admit he was telling lies, when he was in fact, following subsequent instructions from David Miscavige.

As you may have gathered, Alain was French and came from a very wealthy family in the shoe industry. He was multilingual, which would account, in part, for his success as a Class XII auditor.

Alain is now at peace and getting ready for his next project. And it wont be scientology, because the total scientology organisation will have been consigned to a part of history well before he returns. This has been foretold.

Alain, it was a pleasure knowing you this lifetime, and I look forward to meeting you again some time in the future.

Fondest Regards, David. "

Thank you very much!

Now read this a bit more carefully. It is not first-hand testimony at all.

Mate states at the very beginning what his position was. That means he NEVER PERSONALLY SAW A SINGLE C/S IN LISA MCPHERSON'S FOLDER.

Read it again. MATE NEVER OVERHEARD A SINGLE CONVERSATION BETWEEN REISS AND DAVID MISCAVIAGE REGARDING SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS ON THE C/SING OF LISA'S FOLDERS. Nor did he have access to the folders to see this.

His actual personal testimony is that David Miscaviage was there at the time. Okay. When did he arrive, exactly? How long did he stay, exactly? This is omitted because Mate doesn't KNOW.

Mate further dubs in that DM personally took over the entire C/Sing and also dubs in that DM was there THROUGHOUT THE EXACT TIME Lisa worsened.

As for those who were busted, where are the issues? That would show us exactly what they were busted for, what posts from and to, and most importantly - WHEN.

I believe DM did provide some C/Sing instructions for Lisa McPherson. I also believe others, like Reiss and Peter Buttery, were involved and they find it far easier to blame DM than to blame the horrendous isolation and other policies of Hubbard that they subjected Lisa to in the first place.

It is all just too convenient to write this down and put events together in such a way that only DM was responsible when nearly all of what Mate wrote here is just conjecture. Not ONCE does David give testimony or detail of a single C/S instruction that he has heard or observed or seen by DM or for that matter, anyone else, on Lisa's folder. He did not personally know.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Ortega and Rinder

... I believe DM did provide some C/Sing instructions for Lisa McPherson. I also believe others, like Reiss and Peter Buttery, were involved and they find it far easier to blame DM than to blame the horrendous isolation and other policies of Hubbard that they subjected Lisa to in the first place.

More to the point, those involved & aware on the McPherson events were all effectively complicit in what occurred, whether 'coerced' or not. No one went off and called the police or otherwise sought effective steps to end the abuse.

... It is all just too convenient to write this down and put events together in such a way that only DM was responsible when nearly all of what Mate wrote here is just conjecture. ...

See above.


Mark A. Baker