WAS HUBBARD A RACIST?

[justaguy]

A. Such speech was common for his times. You should have heard my texan grandfather on non-whites, non-christians, catholics, & baptists. Even more so in that he wasn't particularly "racist", or even especially "bigoted" by community standards. A bit of a sweetheart actually. The bigots I've known are MUCH MUCH worse.

B. I understand the term originated as "worldly oriental gentleman". I regard it as best not used.

C. I saw it being in sci-fiction by Hubbard's old pal Heinlein to refer to an alien species.

D. FWIW, the usage you cite by Hubbard was not in fact "racist", although a pretty lame adaptation in it's own right.

E. Again, consider the man in the context of his times. Standards have changed and aren't suitable for the day. I wouldn't like to hear what Jesus had to say about Romans or Greeks. What his brother James had to say is somewhat on the record!


Mark A. Baker

It was common. So what? I take it as a sign that hubbard wasn't nearly as enlightened as he says he was.

 

[justaguy]

It's your private decision how to weigh his extensive work vs his non-public comments. In my opinion private statements fade in view of de facto legacy. And his lectures are so non-racist that I cannot imagine any Scientology movement turning anti-black or anti-jew. Racism simply isn't there in his works. .

'cept for the joburg, of course.

 

[knn]

'cept for the joburg, of course.

The Joburg is also non-racist, of course, as I wrote at post #73.

It would be racist if you ask "Did you ever sleep with a black?" and then let PUNISHMENTS follow for answering "Yes".

A confessional for Saudi-Arabs could include "Did you ever have sex with a Jew?" Not because it's WRONG to have sex with a certain race but because it may be a charged area worth addressing. A confessional for extremely orthodox Jews could include "Did you ever eat food touched by non-Jews?"

 

[degraded being]

The Joburg is also non-racist, of course, as I wrote at post #73.

It would be racist if you ask "Did you ever sleep with a black?" and then let PUNISHMENTS follow for answering "Yes".

A confessional for Saudi-Arabs could include "Did you ever have sex with a Jew?" Not because it's WRONG to have sex with a certain race but because it may be a charged area worth addressing. A confessional for extremely orthodox Jews could include "Did you ever eat food touched by non-Jews?"

The "...sleep with a black.." question is a question for white people I presume.
Are there any questions for black people and how they might have transgressed by interacting with white people?
Any guesses about what the questions might be if they were there.?

Are there any joburg questions about treatment dished out to blacks as racism? ....Remembering apartheid etc etc etc? With so many culturally endorsed "overts" in that country, (when did apartheid end?) there should be a few questions on that. Are there?

 

[knn]

The "...sleep with a black.." question is a question for white people I presume.

The question is "32. Have you ever slept with a member of another race or color?"

Any guesses about what the questions might be if they were there?

As far I as know Hubbard made a "compilation of overts" (based on the overts of the staff and public at Joburg) and this then became the confessional.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

It was common. So what? I take it as a sign that hubbard wasn't nearly as enlightened as he says he was.

And I take that as bleedin' obvious from the git go.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

And I take that as bleedin' obvious from the git go.

Obviously it wasn't "obvious from the git go," and you know that, and you - and other PR types - are still busy doing Scientology PR damage control (adjusted to the audience or "public" that you're trying to influence.) Scientology's endless attempts at less than honest persuasion, and manipulation, are its most defining - and unwholesome - characteristics.

 

[knn]

Obviously it wasn't "obvious from the git go," and you know that, and you - and other PR types - are still busy doing Scientology PR damage control (adjusted to the audience or "public" that you're trying to influence.) Scientology's endless attempts at less than honest persuasion, and manipulation, are its most defining - and unwholesome - characteristics.

I noticed that it's one of your favourite actions (not only in this thread) to accuse others of propaganda or PR'ing when they disagree with your statements. It's getting old. Spare us your buttons.

 

[degraded being]

I noticed that it's one of your favourite actions to accuse others of propaganda or PR'ing when they disagree with your statements. It's getting old. Spare us your buttons.

Ron Hubbard was a racist.

 

[knn]

Ron Hubbard was a racist.

Nice try

 

[degraded being]

Nice try

So was your long winded attempt to do the impossible on this thread.

 

[justaguy]

The question is "32. Have you ever slept with a member of another race or color?"



As far I as know Hubbard made a "compilation of overts" (based on the overts of the staff and public at Joburg) and this then became the confessional.

And what's the point of asking such a question? Why should this factor into the picture?

Ignoring that, we're talking about a question directed at apartheid era south africa, where the act being questioned was considered a bad thing. If he wasn't racist, why was he pandering to a racist society? Is that, itself, worse?

(P.S. I'm in a bit of a rush so maybe haven't explained myself the best here, but later maybe I'll take the time to make that argument soundproof. I'm sure it will be, though.)

 

[Blue Spirit]

Rhodesia

Only to give credit where it is due, didn't LRH draw up a

constitution for Rhodesia including giving rights to blacks,

before he was thrown out of there ? Was that part of the

reason for being thrown out ?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Only to give credit where it is due, didn't LRH draw up a

constitution for Rhodesia including giving rights to blacks,

before he was thrown out of there ? Was that part of the

reason for being thrown out ?

Pardon me, Blue, I don't recall hearing this before, certainly this "detail" does not spring to mind. Frankly it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why would Rhodesia be interested in a draft constitution from an american citizen with no expertise in law, who as the founder of a "novel" religion was a person whom the Commonwealth at the time regarded as having a "dubious" reputation, and who was currently "hiding out" in country?

Frankly, this sounds more like another one of the many grandiose claims about Hubbard.

Or was this "constitution" something Hubbard drew up on his own "initiative" on behalf of Rhodesia without checking first what the locals wanted for themselves? Part of a plan to find a "safe home" for his activities? What is the source on this?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Zinjifar]

Why would Rhodesia be interested in a draft constitution from an american citizen with no expertise in law, who as the founder of a "novel" religion was a person whom the Commonwealth at the time regarded as having a "dubious" reputation, and who was currently "hiding out" in country?

Maybe Ron let it slip that he was Cecil Rhodes returned.

Zinj

 

[Dulloldfart]

From http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/rhoconst.htm:

C O N S T I T U T I O N
A TENTATIVE CONSTITUTION OF THE NATION OF RHODESIA

Before God and Man we pledge ourselves, the overnment of Rhodesia and each of our officers and men authority in the Government to this the Constitution our country:

That our country be governed by
The Prime Minister
The Govenor-General
The Cabinet of the Prime Minister
The Senate
The House
The Supreme Court
The Judiciary

etc. etc.​

There's a LOT more at that link. Typos apparently in the original.

Paul

 

[michaelangelo]

Maybe Ron let it slip that he was Cecil Rhodes returned.

Zinj

Maybe he let his Xenu bullshit slip.

 

[degraded being]

Pardon me, Blue, I don't recall hearing this before, certainly this "detail" does not spring to mind. Frankly it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why would Rhodesia be interested in a draft constitution from an american citizen with no expertise in law, who as the founder of a "novel" religion was a person whom the Commonwealth at the time regarded as having a "dubious" reputation, and who was currently "hiding out" in country?

Frankly, this sounds more like another one of the many grandiose claims about Hubbard.

Or was this "constitution" something Hubbard drew up on his own "initiative" on behalf of Rhodesia without checking first what the locals wanted for themselves? Part of a plan to find a "safe home" for his activities? What is the source on this?


Mark A. Baker

As you know, it was Hubtit who was always the grandiose one. And, as usual he was presumptious enough to think that all around him were stupid enough to be entralled by his magnaminous gestures.
Unfortunately it was true. But not that time - nor when the great scientist expected the British press to fall at his feet.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

From http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/rhoconst.htm:

C O N S T I T U T I O N
A TENTATIVE CONSTITUTION OF THE NATION OF RHODESIA

Before God and Man we pledge ourselves, the overnment of Rhodesia and each of our officers and men authority in the Government to this the Constitution our country:

That our country be governed by
The Prime Minister
The Govenor-General
The Cabinet of the Prime Minister
The Senate
The House
The Supreme Court
The Judiciary

etc. etc.​

There's a LOT more at that link. Typos apparently in the original.

Paul

Okay, but was this his usual self-glorifying megalomania or did some rhodesian civic group (not artificially created for the purpose) actually request his views on the matter?

In other words, who asked for this?


Mark A. Baker

 

[degraded being]

Okay, but was this his usual self-glorifying megalomania or did some rhodesian civic group (not artificially created for the purpose) actually request his views on the matter?

In other words, who asked for this?


Mark A. Baker

quote:
In other words, who asked for this?

The ANC?