WAS HUBBARD A RACIST?

knn

Patron Meritorious
Only to give credit where it is due, didn't LRH draw up a

constitution for Rhodesia including giving rights to blacks,

before he was thrown out of there ? Was that part of the

reason for being thrown out ?
At an event this was explained. Sherman said they kicked him out because he started to get too influential among blacks by supporting education and equal rights for blacks (e.g. one man one vote regardless of color).

They also said at the event (I think they showed a picture) how he met there with some politician.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
And what's the point of asking such a question? Why should this factor into the picture?

Ignoring that, we're talking about a question directed at apartheid era south africa, where the act being questioned was considered a bad thing.
And because it was CONSIDERED BAD we have to pick it up in confessionals. If yawning would be considered a crime then a confessional would include "Yawning on 4 flows". Has nothing to do with racism or yawnism.
 
At an event this was explained. Sherman said they kicked him out because he started to get too influential among blacks by supporting education and equal rights for blacks (e.g. one man one vote regardless of color).

They also said at the event (I think they showed a picture) how he met there with some politician.

Nothing personal Knn but, since the Co$ was structured as a personality cult of LRH, I've never been one to take official announcements by Co$ spokesmen at face value. I'd prefer an independent source for corroboration on this detail. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
At an event this was explained. Sherman said they kicked him out because he started to get too influential among blacks by supporting education and equal rights for blacks (e.g. one man one vote regardless of color).

They also said at the event (I think they showed a picture) how he met there with some politician.

Why was his visa cancelled?

Read THE RHODESIA STORY.

Like I asked before; Did you work closely with Hubbard?

Did you, in fact, ever meet him?

These questions were put to you before. You ducked answering them.

Perhaps you can answer them now.

Otherwise stop trying to be an apologist for a person you know NOTHING about.

Dart
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Nothing personal Knn but, since the Co$ was structured as a personality cult of LRH, I've never been one to take official announcements by Co$ spokesmen at face value. I'd prefer an independent source for corroboration on this detail. :)
I completely agree.
 
And what's the point of asking such a question? Why should this factor into the picture?

The purpose of a sec check in auditing is to find "charge" on "overts". The purpose of a sec check out of session is to find "overts". "Overts" are essentially what individuals consider to be "bad", they are not necessarily "bad in themselves", but reflect popular attitudes about the relevant actions styled as "overts".

There has been strong oppostion to "sex between races" in many times and places. Such attitudes were very strong in the '60s when public views on sexuality were beginning to change. Prior to that, in the u.s., they were almost "rock solid". A lot of returning gi's & their families caught grief for marriage with asians after WWII, and that was just the men. White women marrying asian men were put through hell. At present in California, neither combination would customarily warrant a glance. They are ubiquitous. At some times and in some places particular combinations "matter" more than others.

Since the sec check is intended to locate individual "charge" on self-perceived overts, the question is not inappropriate. In many places at present it has less force as a question due to changing standards and customs. Nonetheless, it may still be a "key question" for some.

The difficulty lies not with the question but with the reason it is being asked. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Otherwise stop trying to be an apologist for a person you know NOTHING about.
Why do you want to include only people who WORKED PERSONALLY with Hubbard?

99.9% of people on this board never met him, yet post positive or negative comments (mostly negative since this is the ex-scientologists board).

Do you demand that critics of Hubbard had to work with him, too, before posting their negative comments?

ANY discussion about Hubbard is already unfair because the man is dead and cannot defend himself.
There is no need to make it even more unfair by demanding that benevolent/neutral views about Hubbard have to be uttered by eye witnesses.
 
Why do you want to include only people who WORKED PERSONALLY with Hubbard?

99.9% of people on this board never met him, yet post positive or negative comments (mostly negative since this is the ex-scientologists board).

Do you demand that critics of Hubbard had to work with him, too, before posting their negative comments?

ANY discussion about Hubbard is already unfair because the man is dead and cannot defend himself.
There is no need to make it even more unfair by demanding that benevolent/neutral views about Hubbard have to be uttered by eye witnesses.



How dare you say hubbard is dead. Thetans do not die. Hubbard deliberately dropped his body because he had reached such a high level of OT that it had become an incumberance in his ongoing research into the super stellar stratosphere of the upper levels. Hubbard was a racist and since he cannot die he probably still is. Any denial of this is an ongoing insult to blacks and other people hubbard denigrated. Forget hubbard and spend 5 seconds thinking about that in your trollology Knn.
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
Why do you want to include only people who WORKED PERSONALLY with Hubbard?

99.9% of people on this board never met him, yet post positive or negative comments (mostly negative since this is the ex-scientologists board).

Do you demand that critics of Hubbard had to work with him, too, before posting their negative comments?

ANY discussion about Hubbard is already unfair because the man is dead and cannot defend himself.
There is no need to make it even more unfair by demanding that benevolent/neutral views about Hubbard have to be uttered by eye witnesses.

KNN, You cannot see the forest because the trees are in the way.

Alongside several negative comments made about Hubbard, there are positive ones as well. The difference between us is that I knew him and worked with him for quite a while, whilst most other posters did not have that opportunity.

The picture I present is of how Hubbard actually was, his good side and his dark side.

What you have are your own extrapolations drawn from what you have read, listened to and been given as "facts" by the cult.

The general opinion drawn by Scientologists is that Hubbard thought up, created and wrote everything that is "copyrighted" by Scn. According to the propoganda theme as spouted in " My Philosophy", Hubbard was the greatest living being ever to grace this planet.

Well, sorry to introduce a bit of reality into that nice, warm, fuzzy feeling.

A LOT of what Hubbard claimed copyright on has been around in other technologies for decades before him.

Most of the tech was developed by others within Scn and Hubbard lay claim to it all.

It should be said that most processes came from piloting and contributions from org staff.

The platens for the CC and OT2 were developed from data from students running goals processes back in the early 1960's.

Hubbard was first and foremost a man. He was obsessed with the dream of being the most powerful being in the universe. Alongside his many qualities, there were equally a number of faults. He was a showman, had charisma, gathered a group of syncophants around him whom he could cdommand and control and set out on his quest.

Hubbard was brought up in a racially divisive society at a time when there was active prejudice against ethnic minorities. This, in turn, imprinted itself on him as he grew up. Hubbard held racist and homophobic views because that is what he was exposed to.

He may not have expressed them in his writings or speeches, because it was expedient not to.

But express them in private he did. Make NO mistake, Hubbard was a racist.

Dart
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well it appears that the question has been answered.

Was LconH a racist? Yes. Indeed.

Now then, KNN... stop talking to your hat... like it's capable of conversing with you. :D
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Knn wrote:

Do you demand that critics of Hubbard had to work with him, too, before posting their negative comments?

ANY discussion about Hubbard is already unfair because the man is dead and cannot defend himself.
There is no need to make it even more unfair by demanding that benevolent/neutral views about Hubbard have to be uttered by eye witnesses.


I think there is enough documented evidence and also documents, and books for people to make an informed decision about what kind of a man LRH was.However, eye wittness accounts do back up evidence as to the kind of man he was.As an eye wittness, he was a nasty, vicious and cruel man.

As to being unfair because he is dead and cannot defend himself, tell that to the kids put in the chain locker. How did they defend themselves against his cruel brutality?Where were "their" parents?In denial, or brainwashed?

When Hubbard was alive he didn't defend himself either, he ran away to sea and made other people suffer for his cowardice.The only thing Hubbard ever defended was his "so called right" to rob people of their money and their minds.The only thing to my mind he was very good at.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Degraded being wrote:

How dare you say hubbard is dead. Thetans do not die. Hubbard deliberately dropped his body because he had reached such a high level of OT that it had become an incumberance in his ongoing research into the super stellar stratosphere of the upper levels. Hubbard was a racist and since he cannot die he probably still is. Any denial of this is an ongoing insult to blacks and other people hubbard denigrated. Forget hubbard and spend 5 seconds thinking about that in your trollology Knn.

According to an 18 year veteran of Scientology who I spoke to a few weeks ago, LRH did die.She told me so herself.She never mentioned "dropping his body",it could be that she thought she was talking to an ordinary public or most likely she knew exactly who she was talking to and wanted to appear perfectly normal.After all it is considered normal thinking in the "wog" (god, I hate that word) world that if a person stops breathing for any length of time, they are considered to be dead.

As I have said before, I am glad LRH is dead, its just a shame from my point of view that Scientology wasn't buried along with him.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Hubbard was brought up in a racially divisive society at a time when there was active prejudice against ethnic minorities. This, in turn, imprinted itself on him as he grew up. Hubbard held racist and homophobic views because that is what he was exposed to.

He may not have expressed them in his writings or speeches, because it was expedient not to.

But express them in private he did. Make NO mistake, Hubbard was a racist.
But this is exactly my point: If someone claims "Mr. X is an -ist" based on "private expressions" then I don't doubt the "private expressions".

But I doubt the DEGREE of the -ism. Based on private occasional expressions nearly everyone of us would be racist, sexist, ageist, xenophobic etc.

Based on his public works and his organizational alignments Hubbard was not a racist. Privately, as you wrote, he may have been indeed a child of his times and thus racially prejudiced.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
I think there is enough documented evidence and also documents, and books for people to make an informed decision about what kind of a man LRH was.
No, there isn't enough evidence. Maybe there are enough books to make an informed decision about his darker side. But not about his better side, and I am not even claiming that there IS a better side about Hubbard, but it's pretty obvious that the only positive books about Muhammad would be written by Muslims while non-Muslims would write negative books about Muhammad, thus automatically gather information from negative sources and ex's for their books.

Thus automatically you get either overly positive books ("Ron the XYZer" by Dan Sherman) or overly negative books. The only exception would be books written by neutral historians, but there are no such books about Hubbard.

However that is offtopic here.

As to being unfair because he is dead and cannot defend himself, tell that to the kids put in the chain locker.
That he hurt someone doesn't change the fact that he cannot defend himself nowadays.

Having said that let me add that the "kid sit" (= how children are treated in the Church/SO) is one of the most sickening results of Hubbard's works. And Children's RPF's RPF is a disgrace and a mental illness. While racism is non-existent in the Church, child'ism (the neglect and low regard for children) _IS_.

When Hubbard was alive he didn't defend himself either
Never during his lifetime exited an internet with easily accessible wild accusations.
 
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No, there isn't enough evidence. Maybe there are enough books to make an informed decision about his darker side. But not about his better side, and I am not even claiming that there IS a better side about Hubbard, but it's pretty obvious that the only positive books about Muhammad would be written by Muslims while non-Muslims would write negative books about Muhammad, thus automatically gather information from negative sources and ex's for their books.

Thus automatically you get either overly positive books ("Ron the XYZer" by Dan Sherman) or overly negative books. The only exception would be books written by neutral historians, but there are no such books about Hubbard.

However that is offtopic here.


That he hurt someone doesn't change the fact that he cannot defend himself nowadays.

Having said that let me add that the "kid sit" (= how children are treated in the Church/SO) is one of the most sickening results of Hubbard's works. And Children's RPF's RPF is a disgrace and a mental illness. While racism is non-existent in the Church, child'ism (the neglect and low regard for children) _IS_.


Never during his lifetime exited an internet with easily accessible wild accusations.

Let me get this straight. You have mentioned the "kid sit" in disparaging terms and linked it directly with hubbard.
But before that you felt it was necessary to say:

quote:"...That he hurt someone doesn't change the fact that he cannot defend himself nowadays...

Why did you put that in? What effect was it supposed to cause? It seems to imply that hubbard should not be criticised or taken to task if he is dead and cannot defend himself. But you have mentioned "one of the most sickening results of hubbards works".

Hubbard is not here to defend himself on that ....remember?
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Hubbard deliberately dropped his body because he had reached such a high level of OT that it had become an incumberance in his ongoing research into the super stellar stratosphere of the upper levels. Hubbard was a racist and since he cannot die he probably still is. Any denial of this is an ongoing insult to blacks and other people hubbard denigrated. Forget hubbard and spend 5 seconds thinking about that in your trollology Knn.
Hey, sounds like a new religion to me: Hubbard the evil racism overlord in thetan sky and KNN the representative on earth. Stick to it, DB.
 
Hey, sounds like a new religion to me: Hubbard the evil racism overlord in thetan sky and KNN the representative on earth. Stick to it, DB.

You did not answer that question. You do not make sense.
Forget about whether or not there is any agreemnet on whether or not hubbard was a racist. Just try to be coherent.

And you have your religion. Pity that the founder of it was such a racist. You might be able to talk it out of existence if you were coherent in your message.
 
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