WAS HUBBARD A RACIST?

knn

Patron Meritorious
Let me get this straight. You have mentioned the "kid sit" in disparaging terms and linked it directly with hubbard.
The opposite is true: I linked it _indirecly_ with Hubbard. I said "result of his works".

It seems to imply that hubbard should not be criticised
The opposite is true. Hubbard _SHOULD_ be criticized and exposed. I consider one of the main problems with the Church that EXPOSURE and COMPETITION is missing. The way Hubbard planned it was a mistake: An unscrutinized monopoly.

Eyewitnesses like DartSmohen or Alan do an important and priceless job.

Hence this forum is so good because it offers exposure (the DartSmohens here) AND it offers competition (the Freezoners here). That weakens the Church exactly where it should.

But after all criticism is said one should not forget that the criticized man (Hubbard) isn't around to defend himself or to set things straight. It's like with Larry King: In the beginning of the show they may advertise the show by mentioning some conspiracy, some accusation or some upset. Then comes the guest and sometimes it's only 1 sentence that explains everything.

In other words: Since Hubbard isn't around one should assume a rather neutral or benevolent attitude when reading criticism, especially since most of Hubbard's offences LEAVE INDEED room for speculation and are not pinpointable like "murder".
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
You did not answer that question. You do not make sense.
There was no question in that post:
How dare you say hubbard is dead. Thetans do not die. Hubbard deliberately dropped his body because he had reached such a high level of OT that it had become an incumberance in his ongoing research into the super stellar stratosphere of the upper levels. Hubbard was a racist and since he cannot die he probably still is. Any denial of this is an ongoing insult to blacks and other people hubbard denigrated. Forget hubbard and spend 5 seconds thinking about that in your trollology Knn.
Even after rereading what you wrote I see no question. Or were you questioning yourself?

Just try to be coherent.
OK, especially FOR YOU I will try to be as coherent as possible in the future.

And you have your religion
What religion?
 
The opposite is true: I linked it _indirecly_ with Hubbard. I said "result of his works".


The opposite is true. Hubbard _SHOULD_ be criticized and exposed. I consider one of the main problems with the Church that EXPOSURE and COMPETITION is missing. The way Hubbard planned it was a mistake: An unscrutinized monopoly.

Eyewitnesses like DartSmohen or Alan do an important and priceless job.

Hence this forum is so good because it offers exposure (the DartSmohens here) AND it offers competition (the Freezoners here). That weakens the Church exactly where it should.

But after all criticism is said one should not forget that the criticized man (Hubbard) isn't around to defend himself or to set things straight. It's like with Larry King: In the beginning of the show they may advertise the show by mentioning some conspiracy, some accusation or some upset. Then comes the guest and sometimes it's only 1 sentence that explains everything.

In other words: Since Hubbard isn't around one should assume a rather neutral or benevolent attitude when reading criticism, especially since most of Hubbard's offences LEAVE INDEED room for speculation and are not pinpointable like "murder".



Only if you cannot see what's in front of you or it is too unpalatable to accept. I can understand the "wins" that people get with scientology, in or out of the so-called "church". It does not seem strange to me that people could get "wins" on OT 3 and feel that it is of great benefit, even though I personally think OT 3 is a pile of horse shit which could leave a person stuck with a trap in their psyche. I think I undestand that people find it valuable. I wonder if people who do find it very valuable end up deeply conflicted when the "darker side" of the person who invented scientology, by some of his own work and the misappropiation of the works and good intentions of others, is revealed to them. To nullify the truth of Hubbard's bad side could make the conflict less disturbing.
And I notice that you are not too much of an "apologist" for hubbard, nor, it seems really denying much. You just want to make it nice and "neutral".
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
But after all criticism is said one should not forget that the criticized man (Hubbard) isn't around to defend himself or to set things straight.

Actually he IS around, isn't he? Just is off handling things in another part of the universe. He is welcome to come back and defend himself and set things straight. But even while still here on this planet he had plenty of time to take care of all that, but didn't. I guess writing "Mission Earth" was more important.
 
A LOT of what Hubbard claimed copyright on has been around in other technologies for decades before him.


Technical point: copyright does not apply to ideas, only their expression. Traditionally in law ideas can not be subject to copyright.

The materials copyrighted are the bulletins, tapes, books, etc. for which Hubbard claimed authorship. It is apparently true that staffers often wrote materials which LRH then copyrighted and issued as authored by himself. If such occurred it was intellectually dishonest, but as such persons were "employees", it was not necessarily illegal, nor would it violate or invalidate "copyright".


Mark A. Baker
 
... but it's pretty obvious that the only positive books about Muhammad would be written by Muslims while non-Muslims would write negative books about Muhammad, ...

You give too much credence to western judeo-christian popular bigotry against Islam.

For starters:
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Prophet-Islam-Maxime-Rodinson/dp/1860648274
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-at-Mecca-Montgomery-Watt/dp/0195772784
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-at-Medina-Montgomery-Watt/dp/0195773071

See also:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-philosophy/580624-speaking-character-muhammad-pbuh.html


Mark A. Baker
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Actually he IS around, isn't he? Just is off handling things in another part of the universe. He is welcome to come back and defend himself and set things straight. But even while still here on this planet he had plenty of time to take care of all that, but didn't. I guess writing "Mission Earth" was more important.

knn, just wanted to say.........any sarcasm or anger in this previous post of mine isn't directed at YOU.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I want you to consider this: Winston Churchill entertained the same views more or less.



A few L. Ron Hubbard quotes...


"Just as individuals can be seen, by observing nations, so we see the
African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis
on brutality and savagery for others but not for himself, is a
no-civilization."
-L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge
Publications: Los Angeles, 1997

"A black South African's withholds read not only on the needle [of the
E-meter] alone but on the Tone Arm [sensitivity adjustment] as well."
-L. Ron Hubbard, E-Meter Essentials, section I: "Meter Oddities", 1988
(pg. 24)

"The South African native is probably the one impossible person to train
in the entire world?he is probably impossible by any human standard."
-L. Ron Hubbard, Professional Auditor's Bulletin, No. 119, 1 September
1957

The Church runs security checks on members suspected of certain criminal
behaviors. The Johannesburg Security Check was "the roughest security
check in Scientology" and consisted of a series of pointed questions
which the Scientologist must answer while on the E-meter (used in this
case not as an auditing tool but as a lie detector). The contents of
this security check were later incorporated into The Only Valid Security
Check. Included in the list of "crimes" is engaging in an intimate
relationship with a member of a "colored" race. Selected portion of the
questions:

"Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another color?"
"Have you ever committed culpable homicide?"
"Have you ever bombed anything?"
"Have you ever murdered anyone?"
"Have you ever kidnapped anyone?"

-L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter (HCOPL) 7
April 1961, "Johannesburg Security Check"
-L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy "Letter (HCOPL) 22
May 1961, "The Only Valid Security Check"

Hubbard sees indigenous people as happy, ignorant natives dancing in the
jungle or trying to overthrow the colonial government. [We assume these
are Africans since he mentions British involvement and he had a special
interest in that part of the world, though the ethnic identity of these
"natives" is not actually germane to his point.]

"Illiterate cultures do not survive and they are not very high. The
natives of the tribe of the Bugga-Bugga-Booga-Boogas down in Lower
Bugga-Wugga Booga-Woog are mostly no longer with us, or they are around
waving red flags today and revolting against their central government.
Well, the British Tommy that went down there with his Snider, or
his Lee-Enfield, and brought them higher education in the first place
was only occasionally followed by anybody who taught them anything. And
they didn't learn fast. Their literacy was not up to absorbing culture
rapidly.
They've been very happily down amongst the bong-bong trees, you
know, dancing up and down amongst the bong-bong trees, and the highest
level of their interest and so forth was their own back yard."
-L. Ron Hubbard, The Study Tapes, "Study: Evaluation and Information",
lecture given 11 August 1964

"Now we say there's, well, another place in the world?there's India.
Wonderful place ? except for its people."
-L. Ron Hubbard, "The Control of Hysteria" (lecture), 15 April 1957.

"He's [the Arab] been going crazy steadily and gradually ever since he
lost the early very fertile basins of the Middle East. He's been going
crazy ever since he failed to learn wheat farming and brought about the
erosion of all of the fertile areas of the Middle East."

"This race has been going for a very, very long time and has been eating
death for a very long time and it is death."

"The Arab is to a point where he won't even follow a decent leader. He's
got to have a man of blood, a man of cruelty, exaggeration and bigotry.
Then he'll follow him."

"...the Arab is trying to be pleased with death and murder and mayhem
and disease and poverty and political unrest."
-L. Ron Hubbard, 20th Advanced Clinical Course, "Case Analysis?Rock
Hunting", lecture of 4 August 1958

"Japanese is a baby talk ? very, very hard to read, very, very, easy to
talk. ... A very faint kind of language."
-L. Ron Hubbard, New Slant on Life, Bridge Publications, 1997

"You can put these things into the hands of some Chinese and send him to
Hong Kong and we'll have cleared chinks."
-L. Ron Hubbard, tape 5211C06A LS-1, "Methods of Research - The Thetan
as an Energy Unit"; also known as "Secrets of the MEST Universe", lecture 1)

Of course, L. Ron Hubbard 's hatred of Black and Chinese people is amply
reflected in his own personal writings:

" ...[The Chinese] have neither the foresight or endurance to overrun
any white country in any way except by intermarriage. One American
marine could stand off a great many yellowmen without much effort."

"A Chinaman can not live up to a thing, he always drags it down."

"They smell of all the baths they didn't take. The trouble with China
is, there are too many chinks here."
-L. Ron Hubbard, personal journal, 1928

"You shouldn't be scrubbing the floor on your hands and knees. Get
yourself a ******; that's what they're born for."
-L Ron Hubbard, in a letter to first wife, Polly Grubb
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Good post Kat,
Seems to me that if someone really had the intention to "clear the planet" that it wouldn't be wise to make statements like those in that post where you'd piss off half of the people on the planet. ;)
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I think LRH was very much a product of his time and upbringing. Racism was more common then.

However, that having been said- I will say that I've seen the tone arm/Bantu's withhold (the reference I read said "Bantu") statement referred to many times in Hubbard as racist posts on various fora and I just don't think it qualifies. They either had different tone arm readings or they didn't. It's no more racist or chauvinistic than saying that women tend to have less upper body strength than men do.
 

well_that_sucked

Patron with Honors
I think LRH was very much a product of his time and upbringing. Racism was more common then.

However, that having been said- I will say that I've seen the tone arm/Bantu's withhold (the reference I read said "Bantu") statement referred to many times in Hubbard as racist posts on various fora and I just don't think it qualifies. They either had different tone arm readings or they didn't. It's no more racist or chauvinistic than saying that women tend to have less upper body strength than men do.

Wassa madda wit' you hat?

watch
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
He must've overcome his aversion to black people as it pertained to his own bad self.
He screwed a very black woman and got her pregnant in the early 60's. ( See Alan's Pandoras Box thread).

Challenge
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Many a racist has had interracial sex, sad to say. Look at the old slave owners.

I once read a fantastic book called "Soul Sister" by Grace Halsell who did what the guy who wrote Black Like Me did, but several years later during the Civil Rights era in the US. Well, she disguised herself as a black woman and went undercover. She was a maid in a southern home and was given plastic cups and paper plates on which to have her beverages and meals yet the man of the house was awfully willing to make a pass at her that was so aggressive, I think it could justly be called attempted rape. She quotes him as saying "gotta have black pussy" and she had to fight him off.
 
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