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WAS HUBBARD A RACIST?

Are you saying that Hubbard (Buddha re-incarnated

A. The actual claim is: Maitreya re-incarnated, and an incarnate Bodhisattva.

B. By traditional Buddhist rankings, Buddhas, having transcended the Wheel of Life, do not incarnate. Bodhisattvas, however, may.

C. Maitreya, a disciple of the Buddha who was deemed to be the future Buddha, was a completely different person from Gautama Siddhartha. GS is the traditional name accorded to the last Buddha. By your comments, I presume you were referring to him with your "Buddha reincarnated".



and Mankinds greatest saviour and friend) ...

If you think so. I would not concur, myself.


... should not be held to a higher standard than the common men (wogs) of his time?

Well, in accordance, with traditional Buddhist teachings all such distinctions are false. Two thoughts to consider.

The Dhammapada

Your Self

...

Let us live happily,
hating none though others hate.
Let us live without hate among those who hate.

...


Happiness

Better is your own Dhamma, however weak,
than the Dhamma of another, however noble.
Look after your self, and be firm in your goal.

...


Mark A. Baker
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
C. Maitreya, a disciple of the Buddha who was deemed to be the future Buddha, was a completely different person from Gautama Siddhartha. GS is the traditional name accorded to the last Buddha. By your comments, I presume you were referring to him with your "Buddha reincarnated".

This is very interesting. . . my exposure to the Buddhist prophecy of Metteyya came through the CofS, so I researched it just now after reading your comment, and sure enough, Metteya was never supposed to be the Buddha reincarnated, but "another Buddha". That actually clears some things up for me.

But I do find it interesting that in the "briefings" we got at that time, and the release event for the CD, it was clearly designed to make people think that LRH was the reincarnation of Buddha -- that one of his past life identities was Gautama Siddhartha. . . that he was "returning". So why would the COfS portray ron as reincarnated Gautama Siddhartha when that WOULDN'T have actually been a fulfillment of the prophecy? Or maybe they just figured nobody would check up on them?

I just added something else to the list of how I was misled by the CofS.

-TL
 
A. Such speech was common for his times. You should have heard my texan grandfather on non-whites, non-christians, catholics, & baptists. Even more so in that he wasn't particularly "racist", or even especially "bigoted" by community standards. A bit of a sweetheart actually. The bigots I've known are MUCH MUCH worse.

B. I understand the term originated as "worldly oriental gentleman". I regard it as best not used.

C. I saw it being in sci-fiction by Hubbard's old pal Heinlein to refer to an alien species.

D. FWIW, the usage you cite by Hubbard was not in fact "racist", although a pretty lame adaptation in it's own right.

E. Again, consider the man in the context of his times. Standards have changed and aren't suitable for the day. I wouldn't like to hear what Jesus had to say about Romans or Greeks. What his brother James had to say is somewhat on the record! :omg:


Mark A. Baker

Quote:

"A. Such speech was common for his times. You should have heard my texan grandfather on non-whites, non-christians, catholics, & baptists. Even more so in that he wasn't particularly "racist", or even especially "bigoted" by community standards. A bit of a sweetheart actually. The bigots I've known are MUCH MUCH worse."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is it really this easy to get a laugh on a Sunday morning?
 
First of all let's not forget that Hubbard was NOT a racist: It's funny how this man has given 450+ SHSBC lectures and then some 2500+ more lectures, has published books and thick green volumes and thick red volumes and ALL YOU HAVE AS YOUR HARDEST proof is some LETTER that he wrote in the 1930ies or so to his wife? A letter that noone ever saw (except Armstrong, who admits that he didn't make a copy), and that doesn't feature any actual statement about blacks just the then-accepted term "nigger"?

That this mythical letter is your hardest proof is actually a proof that Hubbard was NOT a racist, and if he was then 1) it surely didn't show in his works and 2) it surely didn't rain down into Scientologists' heads.

Ok Knn, i give up. Ron Hubbard was nice.
Paranoid schizophrenic, megalomaniacal, racist, scam master, implanter, but hey, we're all human and he was saving the planet. = Ron nice man.
Sorry for not being able to take you seriously. Not.
 
This is very interesting. . . my exposure to the Buddhist prophecy of Metteyya came through the CofS, so I researched it just now after reading your comment, and sure enough, Metteya was never supposed to be the Buddha reincarnated, but "another Buddha". That actually clears some things up for me.

But I do find it interesting that in the "briefings" we got at that time, and the release event for the CD, it was clearly designed to make people think that LRH was the reincarnation of Buddha -- that one of his past life identities was Gautama Siddhartha. . . that he was "returning". So why would the COfS portray ron as reincarnated Gautama Siddhartha when that WOULDN'T have actually been a fulfillment of the prophecy? Or maybe they just figured nobody would check up on them?

I just added something else to the list of how I was misled by the CofS.

-TL

Is that why they withdrew the book? Oops those damn typesetters again!
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Don't switch the burden of proof. If YOU claim that he was a racist then YOU have to list all his statements about races. But take for example his Church's creed:
We of the Church believe that all men of whatever race, color, or creed were created with equal rights

That creed would hardly be a creed of White Supremacists.

KNN, you may have a point that some of the evidence used to show Hubbard is racist is weak. But I disagree that his Public statements he made are more important than how he was is private. IF he WAS racist but was aware that his racism would'nt align with the whole image in which he intended to publicly portray to the world, he may have been very careful to withhold his true feelings about this when communicating publicly, as during his lectures and through his books.

From what I'm hearing so far I tend to believe that Hubbard WAS racist, to some degree anyways. But whether he was or not makes little difference to me as he has other serious issues that have been much better documented.
 
But I do find it interesting that in the "briefings" we got at that time, and the release event for the CD, it was clearly designed to make people think that LRH was the reincarnation of Buddha -- that one of his past life identities was Gautama Siddhartha. . . that he was "returning". So why would the COfS portray ron as reincarnated Gautama Siddhartha when that WOULDN'T have actually been a fulfillment of the prophecy? Or maybe they just figured nobody would check up on them?

I just added something else to the list of how I was misled by the CofS.

-TL

There are two basic underlying assumptions here that are potentially faulty:

A. The Co$ knew & understood the nature of the tradition which they got from LRH and was thereby in a position to make a meaningful endorsement.

B. LRH knew & understood the actual tradition on which he based his poem and his claims.

I've never seen anything to suggest that either A or B was true. The internal evidence that both A & B are false is fairly clearly. It certainly requires little in the way of fact checking now to dispute.

[n.b. Although, in fairness to Hubbard's acolytes, prior to the 1970s there were certainly far fewer english translations of original Buddhist texts in general circulation in the west. They did exist but much of what was available (though not all) was of poor quality and typically heavily biased. Many such books had been written by christian missionaries for the express purpose of training christian evangelists. Indirectly these say much more about the nature of christianity than they do about Buddhism.

There was certainly a very great need to sift "the kernel from the chaff" from such blatantly biased and fundamentally erroneous material. In this regard the western world owes China a very great debt for its brutal invasion of Tibet and subsequent persecution of Buddhist religious. As with the Turkish conquest of Istanbul, the world has gained much from such a brutal historical event. The mystery of karma in action. :) ]

Hubbard was very clearly correct on the issue of always seeking out "source". Where he was incorrect was positing himself as a "universal source". He certainly wasn't "source" for Buddhism. He demonstrated little understanding for its basic precepts, much less a command of the comprehensive nature of Buddhist philosophy. I doubt very much that he ever made a thorough or serious study of Buddhist traditions, philosophy, or practice. He may well have read some of the poorer materials that were generally available at the time on the subject of Buddhism.


Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor
The PR damage control never stops does it? The question is why? Why come to a place where Ex-Scientologists are attempting to recover from, and sort out, their experiences with Scientology, and do PR handlings? Why the attempt - with bloviated "explanations" that cunningly usually contain something "acceptable" - to "take the wind out of the sails" of those who are - finally - taking a clear crisp look at Hubbard and Scientology?

Who does that help?

Excerpts from 'The Hymn of Asia':

http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=172&Itemid=189

http://www.xenu.net/archive/so/so.jpg

http://www.xenu.net/archive/books/bfm/sea_org.jpg

Back to the topic of this thread:

When L. Ron Hubbard began frequently using the old racist slur 'Wog' to denote all humans who were not Scientologists, he was in his mid 50s. The civil rights bill in the USA had been made law several years earlier.

http://www.billcasselman.com/wog_title.jpg
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are two basic underlying assumptions here that are potentially faulty:

A. The Co$ knew & understood the nature of the tradition which they got from LRH and was thereby in a position to make a meaningful endorsement.

B. LRH knew & understood the actual tradition on which he based his poem and his claims.

I've never seen anything to suggest that either A or B was true. The internal evidence that both A & B are false is fairly clearly. It certainly requires little in the way of fact checking now to dispute.

[n.b. Although, in fairness to Hubbard's acolytes, prior to the 1970s there were certainly far fewer english translations of original Buddhist texts in general circulation in the west. They did exist but much of what was available (though not all) was of poor quality and typically heavily biased. Many such books had been written by christian missionaries for the express purpose of training christian evangelists. Indirectly these say much more about the nature of christianity than they do about Buddhism.

There was certainly a very great need to sift "the kernel from the chaff" from such blatantly biased and fundamentally erroneous material. In this regard the western world owes China a very great debt for its brutal invasion of Tibet and subsequent persecution of Buddhist religious. As with the Turkish conquest of Istanbul, the world has gained much from such a brutal historical event. The mystery of karma in action. :) ]

Hubbard was very clearly correct on the issue of always seeking out "source". Where he was incorrect was positing himself as a "universal source". He certainly wasn't "source" for Buddhism. He demonstrated little understanding for its basic precepts, much less a command of the comprehensive nature of Buddhist philosophy. I doubt very much that he ever made a thorough or serious study of Buddhist traditions, philosophy, or practice. He may well have read some of the poorer materials that were generally available at the time on the subject of Buddhism.


Mark A. Baker

:duh:

Thanks Mark -- it didn't occur to me that the CofS or Ron never understood it to begin with! But that makes sense. And you're right, the Western interest in Eastern thought is relatively recent so there wouldn't have been accurate materials to study when Ron wrote that.

In Hymn of Asia, though, he insinuates that he's aware of the original teachings, and how they were corrupted over time. Maybe he thought he did because he'd been to Asia, or maybe he was just trying to impress people. And of course he was known to embellish his war record and his education record, why not his "spiritual" record as well.

I wonder if that was a "cog" LRH had in session "Wow! I was Buddha!" and then he proceeded to do enough research to sound "knowledgeable" writing Hymn of Asia. . . (of course he wouldn't have found out until OTVIII that the being that thought he was Buddha was actually one of his BT's :D)

-TL
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
KNN, you may have a point that some of the evidence used to show Hubbard is racist is weak. But I disagree that his Public statements he made are more important than how he was is private. IF he WAS racist but was aware that his racism would'nt align with the whole image in which he intended to publicly portray to the world, he may have been very careful to withhold his true feelings about this when communicating publicly, as during his lectures and through his books.

From what I'm hearing so far I tend to believe that Hubbard WAS racist, to some degree anyways. But whether he was or not makes little difference to me as he has other serious issues that have been much better documented.

This is a great point Type4 -- if his "racism" had been simply and only the way he was raised, or how things were at the time it still would bother me (because he was supposed to be above the "human condition" and understand the human mind and aberration, and he claimed to be high toned and "theta" and should have been above all that)

BUT if he knew that it was wrong to feel that way, but still hung on to it in his private life, then he knew he was misleading people about who he was to elevate his public personna. It becomes more than a factor of mis-education and upbringing, and becomes a character issue.

-TL
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
KNN, you may have a point that some of the evidence used to show Hubbard is racist is weak. But I disagree that his Public statements he made are more important than how he was is private.
It's your private decision how to weigh his extensive work vs his non-public comments. In my opinion private statements fade in view of de facto legacy. And his lectures are so non-racist that I cannot imagine any Scientology movement turning anti-black or anti-jew. Racism simply isn't there in his works. And racism is a non-issue in Scientology. They have black Auditors and black PCs.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
But whether he was or not makes little difference to me as he has other serious issues that have been much better documented.
Exactly. His *cough* Ethics Tech has far more serious consequences and is far more condemning than some statement about the Japanese language or some South African tribe.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
It's your private decision how to weigh his extensive work vs his non-public comments. In my opinion private statements fade in view of de facto legacy. And his lectures are so non-racist that I cannot imagine any Scientology movement turning anti-black or anti-jew. Racism simply isn't there in his works. And racism is a non-issue in Scientology. They have black Auditors and black PCs.

I agree that racism IS a non-issue within Scientology and really is non-existent, according to my observations for 10 years while in.

I don't feel though that that has anything to do with whether Hubbard was racist or not. There WAS a time I did judge him according to his public statements, and I knew that he was never money motivated, he was the only one who ever rose above the bank in all these countless years, he was a nuclear physicist, and I "knew" many other things with regards to his character and accomplishments that simply were not true.
His public statements and the image of him as created by the Cof$ were not anything close to how he really was, nor his true character or accomplishments.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
His public statements and the image of him as created by the Cof$ were not anything close to how he really was, nor his true character or accomplishments.
As is true in any religion. Was Jesus really how Christianity sees him? There wouldn't be any Christianity in times of internet. And there wouldn't be any Islam had Muhammad been youtube'd and scrutinized.
 
As is true in any religion. Was Jesus really how Christianity sees him? There wouldn't be any Christianity in times of internet. And there wouldn't be any Islam had Muhammad been youtube'd and scrutinized.

Let me get this straight.
You're saying that the internet is making it impossible for scientology to exist. Partly because L Ron Hubbard was a racist. You may also be implying that the COS is racist.
And those other religious characters you mentioned would not be able to survive in the age of the internet because they were racist too?
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Let me get this straight.
You're saying that the internet is making it impossible for scientology to exist.
No, sorry I haven't been clear enough. I stated the exact opposite:
Scientology continues to exists DESPITE of the internet, while I believe that early Christianity and early Islam would not have survived the internet. Has nothing to do with racism.

And I think that the internet makes Scientology a better Scientology by exposing abuses and promoting competitors.
 
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No, sorry I haven't been clear enough. I stated the exact opposite:
Scientology continues to exists DESPITE of the internet, while I believe that early Christianity and early Islam would not have survived the internet. Has nothing to do with racism.

Now, keep this thread going for another 10,000 posts and see if you can make your "Ron Hubbard was not racist" chant sensible.
 
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