Was Hubbard Prone to Hallucinations?

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
There are suggestions that Hubbard was taking hallucinogenic drugs. However, I do not see how these rumors could be true -- the only source of information about Hubbard’s drug abuse is his son, L. Ron Hubbard Junior (Ron DeWolf), who listed the substances that his father was using. The list is quite impressive, but none of those drugs can cause hallucinations. For example, LSD is not on the list.

If Hubbard hallucinated, he must have done so on his own power, so to speak, without the hallucinogens. But did the Founder hallucinate? I believe he did. In this article I am going to present several episodes from Hubbard’s life that, in my opinion, show that he had a mental illness that caused him hallucinate.

I’ll begin with Hubbard’s Navy records (by the way, it is highly unlikely that he was taking any drugs while being in the Navy because of routine medical examinations and drug tests).
Hubbard saw a Japanese submarine and ordered the crew to torpedo it (World War II was in progress at that time). But there were no enemy submarines in the area, as the Navy records show. A lengthy investigation followed Hubbard’s decision to release the torpedoes, which resulted in severe reprimand of our “war hero”.

Hubbard saw “hostilities” at a Mexican island in the Pacific Ocean and ordered shelling of it. These was a reckless decision -- there were civilians at the island who were put in harms way because of the shelling. This was a major international incident that almost cost Hubbard his military career.

Before Hubbard was enlisted in the Navy he wrote a book, Excalibur. The first part of the book looks like a very primitive textbook on cell biology, the second part describes the methods of crowd control in prison conditions. According to Hubbard, anyone who reads the book in its totality will go insane.

Hubbard wrote that he had died on the operation table, which was witnessed by the doctors, then the universe revealed to him its deepest secrets, and after that he miraculously returned to the land of the living and produced the book, Excalibur. It was one of the most vivid hallucinations that Hubbard experienced in his troubled life. It is easy to dismiss the story of miraculous revival as a promotional gimmick designed to increase the sales of the Hubbard opus. But this is not what happened -- after receiving an offer to publish the book, Hubbard declined it, and Excalibur was never published.

Hubbard was paranoid about the KGB agents who were everywhere to get him; all ex-Scientologists know that. But what not everybody knows is that Hubbard wrote a letter to the Attorney General saying that the KGB agents, who work together with his ex-wife Sarah, made an attempt on his life. They electrocuted poor LRH and run a needle through his heart.

Did Hubbard made this shit up fully understanding that he is lying to the Attorney General? I do not think so. Let’s say that he had a drug-induced hallucination about his heart being pieced by a needle. But when the drug gets out of the system, the person who took it becomes fully aware that what he saw was a hallucination. That was not the case with Hubbard -- he mailed that letter to the Attorney General without realizing that it made him look like a nutcase.

Now we move to the OT data -- did Hubbard cook it the way he wrote his pathetic sci-fi novels or did he believe in it wholeheartedly? I think that all evidence discussed in this article suggests that Hubbard took his own hallucinations for reality.

If the reader believes in possibility of correct posthumous diagnoses, then he/she might accept Hubbard’s diagnosis, which is paranoid schizophrenia. Hubbard is not alone -- a lot of historic figures were posthumously diagnosed, too -- nowadays the practice of posthumous diagnoses is widely accepted. For example, Napoleon was diagnosed with hypochondria, Hitler -- with paranoia.

Some forms of paranoid schizophrenia are known to cause hallucinations, which adds more weight to the assertion that Hubbard believed in his own hallucinations.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Gee, I don't really know. Maybe.... maybe not.

I never met Hubbard, nor interacted with him, so it'd be pure speculation on my part to even think I had sufficient data to honestly answer your question.

Your article contains a number of questionable assumptions.

It's a mistake to believe everything you read on the Internet, IMO.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are suggestions that Hubbard was taking hallucinogenic drugs. However, I do not see how these rumors could be true -- the only source of information about Hubbard’s drug abuse is his son, L. Ron Hubbard Junior (Ron DeWolf), who listed the substances that his father was using. The list is quite impressive, but none of those drugs can cause hallucinations. For example, LSD is not on the list.

If Hubbard hallucinated, he must have done so on his own power, so to speak, without the hallucinogens. But did the Founder hallucinate? I believe he did. In this article I am going to present several episodes from Hubbard’s life that, in my opinion, show that he had a mental illness that caused him hallucinate.

I’ll begin with Hubbard’s Navy records (by the way, it is highly unlikely that he was taking any drugs while being in the Navy because of routine medical examinations and drug tests).
Hubbard saw a Japanese submarine and ordered the crew to torpedo it (World War II was in progress at that time). But there were no enemy submarines in the area, as the Navy records show. A lengthy investigation followed Hubbard’s decision to release the torpedoes, which resulted in severe reprimand of our “war hero”.

Hubbard saw “hostilities” at a Mexican island in the Pacific Ocean and ordered shelling of it. These was a reckless decision -- there were civilians at the island who were put in harms way because of the shelling. This was a major international incident that almost cost Hubbard his military career.

Before Hubbard was enlisted in the Navy he wrote a book, Excalibur. The first part of the book looks like a very primitive textbook on cell biology, the second part describes the methods of crowd control in prison conditions. According to Hubbard, anyone who reads the book in its totality will go insane.

Hubbard wrote that he had died on the operation table, which was witnessed by the doctors, then the universe revealed to him its deepest secrets, and after that he miraculously returned to the land of the living and produced the book, Excalibur. It was one of the most vivid hallucinations that Hubbard experienced in his troubled life. It is easy to dismiss the story of miraculous revival as a promotional gimmick designed to increase the sales of the Hubbard opus. But this is not what happened -- after receiving an offer to publish the book, Hubbard declined it, and Excalibur was never published.

Hubbard was paranoid about the KGB agents who were everywhere to get him; all ex-Scientologists know that. But what not everybody knows is that Hubbard wrote a letter to the Attorney General saying that the KGB agents, who work together with his ex-wife Sarah, made an attempt on his life. They electrocuted poor LRH and run a needle through his heart.

Did Hubbard made this shit up fully understanding that he is lying to the Attorney General? I do not think so. Let’s say that he had a drug-induced hallucination about his heart being pieced by a needle. But when the drug gets out of the system, the person who took it becomes fully aware that what he saw was a hallucination. That was not the case with Hubbard -- he mailed that letter to the Attorney General without realizing that it made him look like a nutcase.

Now we move to the OT data -- did Hubbard cook it the way he wrote his pathetic sci-fi novels or did he believe in it wholeheartedly? I think that all evidence discussed in this article suggests that Hubbard took his own hallucinations for reality.

If the reader believes in possibility of correct posthumous diagnoses, then he/she might accept Hubbard’s diagnosis, which is paranoid schizophrenia. Hubbard is not alone -- a lot of historic figures were posthumously diagnosed, too -- nowadays the practice of posthumous diagnoses is widely accepted. For example, Napoleon was diagnosed with hypochondria, Hitler -- with paranoia.

Some forms of paranoid schizophrenia are known to cause hallucinations, which adds more weight to the assertion that Hubbard believed in his own hallucinations.

The HubTurd was a commissioned officer, not enlisted in the Navy.

The HubTurd served well before the so-called "war on drugs." While there were certain drugs that were illegal ... coke, pot, heroin, and some others, without a perscription ... the Navy along with the Army/Army Air Force and USMC were all busy fighting a REAL war to harrass people over drugs. You could have gotten away with virtually any sort of drug use with a little discretion. If you were seen bombed out of your skull all the time, thats another story.

Hallucinations ... the HubTurd was an aspiring occultist. One of the exercises is visualization and projection of visualizations into the real world, to be seen by the practitioner as if real. For instance, mock up, say, an orange. Mock it up as solidly as possible, project that image out onto your coffee table. If you are really good you will see the orange there as plain as the coffee cup coaster and magazines that are on there for real. It is a controlled skitzoid condition if you will. I can see where it can get OUT of control tho.

Pete
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Some forms of paranoid schizophrenia are known to cause hallucinations, which adds more weight to the assertion that Hubbard believed in his own hallucinations.

Perhaps at the end...
I was told by Hana Eltringham that back when she was Deputy Commodore, Hubbard remarked in an off hand fashion, while she was following him down a passageway on the Apollo, about the whole ball of wax that is scientology, the sea org, etc etc...

"It's all just hypnosis"
 

johnAnchovie

Still raging
Perhaps at the end...
I was told by Hana Eltringham that back when she was Deputy Commodore, Hubbard remarked in an off hand fashion, while she was following him down a passageway on the Apollo, about the whole ball of wax that is scientology, the sea org, etc etc...

"It's all just hypnosis"

I would like to thank LRH for telling the truth for once.

Old Blub should consider hisself most fortunate that Derren Brown was a just a kid playing mind games with his teddy bear when 'the old man' kicked the bucket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

I do love Hanna Eltringham:yes:
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
Poor old Ron didn't attack an imaginary Japanese submarine (or two) with torpedoes; he did so with depth charges. He was found to be in error, though. He attacked a known magnetic deposit on the sea bed. It was clearly bad judgment, bordering on the imbecilic. If you think that on the first ever night in command of an armed trawler, Ron should run up against not one but two Japanese submarines? Clearly, he didn't have the experience to know any better, and he wasted a lot of munitions... but I don't think a known magnetic deposit constitutes a hallucination.

Poor old Ron didn't see enemies on a Mexican island; he merely conducted gunnery practice there, without permission to anchor away from harbour at night, nor to bombard the territory of neutral Mexico. He was found to be in error, and relieved of command... but he wasn't found to be hallucinating.

Are you sure LRH actually wrote Excalibur, or did the book only exist in stories he told to make himself seem interesting?
Jack Horner said:
'Later, when I was working for him doing research in Phoenix, I was out at his home late one afternoon with Jim Pinkham, who did all the recording at the org, and someone knocked at the door. Ron went and talked to a guy outside for about five minutes and came back with a big grin on his face. He said the guy at the door wanted to give him a cheque for $5000 for a copy of Excalibur. Then he laughed out loud and said, "One of these days I'll have to get round to writing it." We cracked up. It was the only time Ron ever admitted there was no such book.

Hubbard said he had died on an operating table... but all he had was a duodenal ulcer. Also, the "out of body experience in hospital" story was already old and clichéd by the time he started using it. So was that an hallucination, or merely a classic LRH tall story?

Hubbard was paranoid about the KGB... and at other times he was paranoid about a number of other things. While paranoia is a mental illness, it isn't a form of hallucination.

As for the OT data, was it founded on visions, as such? I see Ron sitting down and solo auditing. Believing that if he got a certain result from the e-Meter (a gadget deliberately built to be imprecise) then whatever he had been thinking about was "truth". A pulp fiction writer's imagination, hooked up to a monstrous ego and some bad scientific method... does make for a crap pseudoreligion, but it does not constitute an hallucination.

I have no doubt that Ron dabbled with the contents of his medicine cabinet from time to time... but none of the things mentioned by the OP ring true. Sorry!
 

JustMe

Patron Meritorious
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

Over an eight year time span I suppose I got maybe 250 or so orders directly from him. Receiving and complying with orders from Hubbard taught me a few things, many I did not truly understand until years after I was out.

One thing is how easily he lied. Either he was just a bold faced liar, lying for personal gain at the expense of others, or he was so incompetent that he did not even know he was lying. Or, something else I cannot now imagine.

He also was often very cruel including gross acts of cruelty against those who had dedicated their very lives to support him and scientology. And, IMO his orders often betrayed the fact that he was incompetent.

A few examples:

(i) he told Scientologists in broad issues that he took no money from Scientology, that it was in effect a labor of love. Truth be told he took many tens of millions of dollars from Scientology and demanded more and more constantly. To the public he was a saint, one who was not in it for the money. But in his most private communications with some of those at the very top he accepted no excuses for not getting his take of the proceeds of organized Scientology regularly. And he often saw as enemies any who he felt stood in the way of him and his money;

(ii) he ordered those at the very top in the Watchdog Committee to get every possible dime they could out of any and all possible organizations of the scientology empire. He said to take the money from local orgs before they could spend it. It did not matter that the orgs were almost always left with insufficient money to feed their staffs, to give them proper medical care or to support their own children. He wanted to take the money out of their control and to end up getting his share;

(iii) when cases were lost and money had to be paid to victims of scientology Hubbard was outraged. And it was not because there were victims but rather because money had to be paid out. He would order new, deceptive ways to hide the money through corporate/contractual shell games so none of it could be gotten through litigation should scientology lose instead of focusing on why there were victims in the first place. Case in point is the Christofferson case and Hubbard's order to Sue Mithoff in 1979 re the creation of Scientology Missions International and why it was needed;

(iv) In 1982/1983 Hubbard blew up when he found out that so many books not written by him were sold on org lines and even in some cases by the publications organizations themselves. He demanded heads on pikes to find those who were trying to destroy him and scientology pushing his policy "Vital Data On Promotion" and the part of it that stressed no books by others. While external influence missions were sent all around the world to find and punish all responsible for this, and all who supported it, what he never would mention was that it was he himself who approved many of those books.

For example, Hubbard told me that he had never approved a Ruth Minshull book and only ever had seen one of them - "Miracles for Breakfast". Yet I later found out and confirmed that not only did he see others of her books but he actually approved them in writing for distribution on org lines in exchange for a piece of the action. I later got the approvals from Ruth herself and confirmed from a key messenger that she actually witnessed Hubbard signing the approvals;

(v) in the same time period as in "iv" above Hubbard was constantly demanding that external influences be found as it must be them that was holding scientology down. Scientologists around the world, most of them staff, were horribly abused, gang bang sec checks became rampant, declares reached all time highs and countless families were destroyed through disconnection simply because Hubbard's saw enemies in his most loyal and dedicated followers when he was not getting his way;

(vi) Hubbard often gave horribly stupid orders into the corporate area and there were often people who had to constantly figure out how to "make him feel right" and not comply with the orders without having him go ballistic. One example was Hubbard ordering the selling of minister status for big bucks so that the people getting them could get all sorts of tax benefits and related perks (such as tax deductions for their home mortgages, etc.). Great effort had to be made to not comply and yet make it look like one was complying so as not to incur his wrath.

There are countless examples of these sort of things.

I cannot say with certainty what drove a man to do all this but I can say that the fraud, cruelty and betrayal spanned decades and was not just something found in his last few years of almost complete mental breakdown.

It is my belief that the insane paranoia and fear that Hubbard constantly showed was woven throughout scientology policy. Such things as the RPF, heavy ethics for counter and other intentions (to his own), the cruelty of disconnection and so much more all to "protect" a tech he called priceless but was rather valueless to most who tried it.

This is also reflected in his crazy ramblings were he saw enemies everywhere and demanded the destruction of those who opposed his will.

And, I submit that the entire corporate structure of organized scientology, all the lies that make up the foundation of that house of cards as well as the religious cloaking that helps hold it in place is nothing more than a reflection of that same, insane paranoia of Hubbard as he demanded control of his little empire while cowardly hiding behind its myriad veils so as not to be held liable for that of which he was completely liable.

I submit that Hubbard had no really great accomplishments. The bigger accomplishments (such as they were) in the history of organized scientology were IMO not achieved by Hubbard. Rather they were achieved by loving, dedicated and, yes, misled people who themselves put it all on the line to dedicate themselves and their lives to the following of a man who would ultimately betray them.

I find it difficult to find any real hate in my heart for this but there is much sadness in there. A sadness for all the good souls who cared and who tried to follow a dream and were betrayed.

Did Hubbard really think he would "clear the planet" and that scientology should really expand well beyond his own life? I don't know for sure but I cannot get this troubling thought out of my mind: I once went to the leaders of the Watchdog Committee and the then leader of RTC before Miscavige took over. I tried to reconcile the constant demands for money every week. I asked how will we clear the rest of the planet when such a large portion of it could not afford scientology services.

All I got back were blank stares.

And I had a sad :bigcry:
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

Over an eight year time span I suppose I got maybe 250 or so orders directly from him. Receiving and complying with orders from Hubbard taught me a few things, many I did not truly understand until years after I was out.

One thing is how easily he lied....
He also was often very cruel including gross acts of cruelty against those who had dedicated their very lives to support him and scientology. And, IMO his orders often betrayed the fact that he was incompetent.

A few examples...
....

This is also reflected in his crazy ramblings were he saw enemies everywhere and demanded the destruction of those who opposed his will.

And, I submit that the entire corporate structure of organized scientology, all the lies that make up the foundation of that house of cards as well as the religious cloaking that helps hold it in place is nothing more than a reflection of that same, insane paranoia of Hubbard as he demanded control of his little empire while cowardly hiding behind its myriad veils so as not to be held liable for that of which he was completely liable.

I submit that Hubbard had no really great accomplishments. The bigger accomplishments (such as they were) in the history of organized scientology were IMO not achieved by Hubbard. Rather they were achieved by loving, dedicated and, yes, misled people who themselves put it all on the line to dedicate themselves and their lives to the following of a man who would ultimately betray them.

I find it difficult to find any real hate in my heart for this but there is much sadness in there. A sadness for all the good souls who cared and who tried to follow a dream and were betrayed.

Did Hubbard really think he would clear and planet and that scientology should really expand well beyond his own life? I don't know for sure but I cannot get this troubling thought out of my mind: I once went to the leaders of the Watchdog Committee and the then leader of RTC before Miscavige took over. I tried to reconcile the constant demands for money every week. I asked how will we clear the rest of the planet when such a large portion of it could not afford scientology services.

All I got back were blank stares.

And I had a sad :bigcry:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :goodposting:

HOLY BATSHIT, BATMAN! JUSTME, I'M GLAD YOURE' ON OUR TEAM!!

Did I say WELCOME yet? Your posts are incredible and your first-hand experiences extremely valuable. Welcome! You're awesome. More please!
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

Over an eight year time span I suppose I got maybe 250 or so orders directly from him. Receiving and complying with orders from Hubbard taught me a few things, many I did not truly understand until years after I was out.

<snip for brevity...>



:goodposting: Thank you! :goodposting:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

Over an eight year time span I suppose I got maybe 250 or so orders directly from him. Receiving and complying with orders from Hubbard taught me a few things, many I did not truly understand until years after I was out.

One thing is how easily he lied. Either he was just a bold faced liar, lying for personal gain at the expense of others, or he was so incompetent that he did not even know he was lying. Or, something else I cannot now imagine.

He also was often very cruel including gross acts of cruelty against those who had dedicated their very lives to support him and scientology. And, IMO his orders often betrayed the fact that he was incompetent.

A few examples:

(i) he told Scientologists in broad issues that he took no money from Scientology, that it was in effect a labor of love. Truth be told he took many tens of millions of dollars from Scientology and demanded more and more constantly. To the public he was a saint, one who was not in it for the money. But in his most private communications with some of those at the very top he accepted no excuses for not getting his take of the proceeds of organized Scientology regularly. And he often saw as enemies any who he felt stood in the way of him and his money;

(ii) he ordered those at the very top in the Watchdog Committee to get every possible dime they could out of any and all possible organizations of the scientology empire. He said to take the money from local orgs before they could spend it. It did not matter that the orgs were almost always left with insufficient money to feed their staffs, to give them proper medical care or to support their own children. He wanted to take the money out of their control and to end up getting his share;

(iii) when cases were lost and money had to be paid to victims of scientology Hubbard was outraged. And it was not because there were victims but rather because money had to be paid out. He would order new, deceptive ways to hide the money through corporate/contractual shell games so none of it could be gotten through litigation should scientology lose instead of focusing on why there were victims in the first place. Case in point is the Christofferson case and Hubbard's order to Sue Mithoff in 1979 re the creation of Scientology Missions International and why it was needed;

(iv) In 1982/1983 Hubbard blew up when he found out that so many books not written by him were sold on org lines and even in some cases by the publications organizations themselves. He demanded heads on pikes to find those who were trying to destroy him and scientology pushing his policy "Vital Data On Promotion" and the part of it that stressed no books by others. While external influence missions were sent all around the world to find and punish all responsible for this, and all who supported it, what he never would mention was that it was he himself who approved many of those books.

For example, Hubbard told me that he had never approved a Ruth Minshull book and only ever had seen one of them - "Miracles for Breakfast". Yet I later found out and confirmed that not only did he see others of her books but he actually approved them in writing for distribution on org lines in exchange for a piece of the action. I later got the approvals from Ruth herself and confirmed from a key messenger that she actually witnessed Hubbard signing the approvals;

(v) in the same time period as in "iv" above Hubbard was constantly demanding that external influences be found as it must be them that was holding scientology down. Scientologists around the world, most of them staff, were horribly abused, gang bang sec checks became rampant, declares reached all time highs and countless families were destroyed through disconnection simply because Hubbard's saw enemies in his most loyal and dedicated followers when he was not getting his way;

(vi) Hubbard often gave horribly stupid orders into the corporate area and there were often people who had to constantly figure out how to "make him feel right" and not comply with the orders without having him go ballistic. One example was Hubbard ordering the selling of minister status for big bucks so that the people getting them could get all sorts of tax benefits and related perks (such as tax deductions for their home mortgages, etc.). Great effort had to be made to not comply and yet make it look like one was complying so as not to incur his wrath.

There are countless examples of these sort of things.

I cannot say with certainty what drove a man to do all this but I can say that the fraud, cruelty and betrayal spanned decades and was not just something found in his last few years of almost complete mental breakdown.

It is my belief that the insane paranoia and fear that Hubbard constantly showed was woven throughout scientology policy. Such things as the RPF, heavy ethics for counter and other intentions (to his own), the cruelty of disconnection and so much more all to "protect" a tech he called priceless but was rather valueless to most who tried it.

This is also reflected in his crazy ramblings were he saw enemies everywhere and demanded the destruction of those who opposed his will.

And, I submit that the entire corporate structure of organized scientology, all the lies that make up the foundation of that house of cards as well as the religious cloaking that helps hold it in place is nothing more than a reflection of that same, insane paranoia of Hubbard as he demanded control of his little empire while cowardly hiding behind its myriad veils so as not to be held liable for that of which he was completely liable.

I submit that Hubbard had no really great accomplishments. The bigger accomplishments (such as they were) in the history of organized scientology were IMO not achieved by Hubbard. Rather they were achieved by loving, dedicated and, yes, misled people who themselves put it all on the line to dedicate themselves and their lives to the following of a man who would ultimately betray them.

I find it difficult to find any real hate in my heart for this but there is much sadness in there. A sadness for all the good souls who cared and who tried to follow a dream and were betrayed.

Did Hubbard really think he would "clear the planet" and that scientology should really expand well beyond his own life? I don't know for sure but I cannot get this troubling thought out of my mind: I once went to the leaders of the Watchdog Committee and the then leader of RTC before Miscavige took over. I tried to reconcile the constant demands for money every week. I asked how will we clear the rest of the planet when such a large portion of it could not afford scientology services.

All I got back were blank stares.

And I had a sad :bigcry:

JustMe,

Gawd, do I Grok all this!!!:yes::melodramatic:

Whadda p-r-i-s-t-i-n-e-l-y a-c-c-u-r-a-t-e and a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y b-r-i-l-l-i-a-n-t post. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thank You. :clap:

Having personally interacted with El Ron and been on Hisself's "lines", I am very much looking forward to your future posts. :coolwink:

Welcome to this here First Class Rodeo. :hattip:

So glad you are here with all of Us. :happydance:

I understand your sad.
:bigcry:

Face :)
 
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Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
R/E the OP.

Hubbard was a man filled with many delusions, if some of it was hallucinatory?, it shouldn't come as any suprise.


:confused2:
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Your post contains inaccuracies, which I'm not going to bother correcting. If you care enough, you can take the time and correct it yourself.

Exactly what errors are you talking about?
Here are the sources of my data:

1. Hubbard military files.

http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/

These files were released by the US Navy after several news organization had used Freedom of Information Act to get access to them. The data describes the submarine incident and the shelling of the Mexican Island.
I do not think that this info was manufactured.

2. The Excalibur story.

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/excalibur.htm

This website contains links to the other websites where the original data about Excalibur was posted. They also contain Hubbard’s letters to his friends where he describes his “death experience” that preceded creation of Excalibur.
As I said before, this is not a book promotion gimmick because Hubbard turned down the offer to publish the book. According to official Scientology website, the book was written but never published.

3. Hubbard was paranoid about many things, including the KGB agents who were watching him.

“That plaintiff and her medical advisors, following the foregoing incidents, concluded that said Hubbard was hopelessly insane, and crazy, and that there was no present hope for said Hubbard, or any reason for her to endure [sic] further; that competent medical advisors recommended that said Hubbard be committed to a private sanitarium for psychiatric observation and treatment of a mental ailment known as paranoid schizophrenia; that plaintiff, on the 23rd day of February, 1951, caused the national executive officer of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation at Elizabeth, New Jersey, to be advised of said preliminary diagnosis and urgent need for treatment; that said national officer immediately advised said Hubbard of said diagnosis.”

Divorce document.

http://www.spaink.net/cos/LRH-bio/sara.htm

This is a official document, I do not see how it could be manufactured.

4. I cannot find a link to the website containing Hubbard’s letter to Attorney General, but I clearly remember that I provided the link at the WWP thread titled Are Scilons in love with LRH? (I did not start the thread, but I contributed to it).
This is also an official document.




 

Veda

Sponsor
Exactly what errors are you talking about?


The search fuction on ESMB, and on Google, are your friends.

The Bernie site is a $cientology "perimeter defense" Op.

The letter was to the FBI.

There are many accounts of Hubbard's drug use and drug supply, as well of court's evidence.

Happy searching. It's easy these days. So go for it.
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Poor old Ron didn't attack an imaginary Japanese submarine (or two) with torpedoes; he did so with depth charges. He was found to be in error, though. He attacked a known magnetic deposit on the sea bed. It was clearly bad judgment, bordering on the imbecilic. If you think that on the first ever night in command of an armed trawler, Ron should run up against not one but two Japanese submarines? Clearly, he didn't have the experience to know any better, and he wasted a lot of munitions... but I don't think a known magnetic deposit constitutes a hallucination.

Poor old Ron didn't see enemies on a Mexican island; he merely conducted gunnery practice there, without permission to anchor away from harbour at night, nor to bombard the territory of neutral Mexico. He was found to be in error, and relieved of command... but he wasn't found to be hallucinating.

Are you sure LRH actually wrote Excalibur, or did the book only exist in stories he told to make himself seem interesting?


Hubbard said he had died on an operating table... but all he had was a duodenal ulcer. Also, the "out of body experience in hospital" story was already old and clichéd by the time he started using it. So was that an hallucination, or merely a classic LRH tall story?

Hubbard was paranoid about the KGB... and at other times he was paranoid about a number of other things. While paranoia is a mental illness, it isn't a form of hallucination.

As for the OT data, was it founded on visions, as such? I see Ron sitting down and solo auditing. Believing that if he got a certain result from the e-Meter (a gadget deliberately built to be imprecise) then whatever he had been thinking about was "truth". A pulp fiction writer's imagination, hooked up to a monstrous ego and some bad scientific method... does make for a crap pseudoreligion, but it does not constitute an hallucination.

I have no doubt that Ron dabbled with the contents of his medicine cabinet from time to time... but none of the things mentioned by the OP ring true. Sorry!
Hubbard was diagnosed posthumously with paranoid schizophrenia, not with paranoia. Some forms of paranoid schizophrenia are known to cause hallucinations.
His Naval record shows that he saw hostile action taking place at a Mexican island; it was not a military exercise. I provided a link to his military files that contain a complete description of the incident.

Regarding the Excalibur – unless there is an Internet conspiracy designed to make Hubbard look like an idiot, the evidence provided by his contemporaries suggests that he wrote the book; the official CoS data confirms that.
In one of his letters he wrote about his “death experience” that preceded creation of Excalibur.(I posted that letter and link to it at OCMB). You may think that Hubbard invented this story, but his lie serves no purpose – he withdrew the offer to publish the book. Apparently, he believed that the book is so dangerous that anyone who reads it will go insane, as he wrote in his letters to his friends. Every lie has it purpose; this one does not have one. It seems to me that the book came as a result of a vivid hallucination.

I do not think that it could be said with 100% certainty that Hubbard had persistent hallucinations. But it is also true that it is impossible to rule out with 100% certainty that he did not hallucinate. What we have here are some facts and our interpretations of them. It seems to me that the most probable interpretation of facts is that the OT data is a form of Hubbard hallucination not caused by the use of drugs.

It also seems to me that the author of the book, Messiah or Madman?, who knew Hubbard for many years, believed that the Founder was seriously mentally ill; otherwise, the title of the book would have been Messiah or Conman?
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
I'm not going to argue with you about the exact mental illness(es) a person who has been dead and gone for more than a quarter of a century may have suffered from.

It would appear that we both agree he was mentally ill, and we would both agree that he was a con-man... why does it matter whether we're talking about paranoia, paranoid schizophrenia, narcissistic personality disorder, morbid jealousy, delusions of grandeur, compulsive lying or a number of other things? I think it really doesn't matter at all. Certainly, he was a very disturbed individual. He may well have seen things... but the examples you provided didn't seem to relate to hallucinations. There were also a number of factual errors in your accounts, such as alleging that Hubbard's armed trawler, YP-422, was armed with torpedoes. It had no such weapon. (Incidentally, despite what you said above, "I provided a link to his military files"... your OP contains no links, as far as I can see.)

You weaken your arguments when the evidence you present contains a number of loose threads at which anybody who has studied the history of the Scientology cult can tug. The whole thing will tend to unravel... which was probably not your intention. I'm not trying to be mean but when you're trying to undo the evils of Scientology, you really need to nail your facts down, because you're dealing with some very slippery characters.

Yes; Hubbard was a lunatic. Then he died with an ass full of Vistaril - which may well have been given because he was raving. But that was more than a quarter of a century ago. Diagnosing the mental illnesses of a guy when there no longer has a brain or a body at all... seems as if it will always be unsatisfactory. Better, perhaps, to examine the behaviour of Hubbard apologists who are still living, such as Jan Eastgate or Marty Rathbun.
 

johnAnchovie

Still raging
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

(Snipped)

All I got back were blank stares.

And I had a sad :bigcry:

As the fellow in the film said "Who ARE you???!"

I am attending a conference that touches on Mafia types, specifically it is to commemorate the 'Massacre at Capaci' where Italian Prosecutor General and investigator Falcone :( , his wife and about ten police officers were murdered.

But Hubbard is a crime boss, not a drugged out space cadet.

Funny; I was talking with a friend about such personality types last night. In looking at our own families and immediate connections we estimated that the most manipulative, coldest, meanest and mind-fucking people we knew or could think of were indulged, spoiled and pampered only children. The decent people that we knew all came from bigger families. Now that is not conclusive of course, it just an anecdote, but interesting none the less.

I suppose Hubbard was many things, and from what I can tell, all of them pretty nasty, cheap and tawdry.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Whatever the reason(s), Hubbard had a serious problem with the truth and, IMO, with general competency.

Over an eight year time span I suppose I got maybe 250 or so orders . . . .

(snippage)

And I had a sad :bigcry:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :goodposting:

HOLY BATSHIT, BATMAN! JUSTME, I'M GLAD YOURE' ON OUR TEAM!!

Did I say WELCOME yet? Your posts are incredible and your first-hand experiences extremely valuable. Welcome! You're awesome. More please!

Me too! :thumbsup:
 
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