Was LRH bisexual?

[Mystic]

Well, the man-thing L. Ron Hubbard may or may not have been bisexual. He runs in place nicely:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8127/newstooges.gifhttp://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8127/newstooges.gif

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Hi Schwimm,

Just to clarify; Hubbard may have started out the decology thread buit he did not write the books. These were written by a team of staff, including Suzette.

Dart

Huh!? - Allright, we now have the choice of 2 demeaning scenarios for Hubturd: 1: He wrote the biggest and gay'est gay porn novel of all time.. Or, 2: He didn't write it. But he stole credit for the biggest and gay'est gay porn novel of all time..

Mewhehe..

However.. This team of staffers, including Suzette, would have written ME without Robert Vaughn Young knowing, or even suspecting:

http://www.holysmoke.org/rvy/rvy2.htm

Robert wrote all the summaries on front of each volume though.

 

[Ulduz]

It seems unlikely to me that L Ron Hubbard was gay or bisexual. Even if the Satanic rites he participated in involved homosexual acts, a person does not need to be homo/bisexual to take part. Isolated incidents of homosexual acts, particularly in youth, are not evidence of a fixed sexuality. L Ron Hubbard was a hugely complicated character and certainly participated in all that life has to offer.

There is, however, a real disgust for homosexuals throughout Scientology, both in its scripture and in its actions. I have put this down, largely, to the fact that L Ron Hubbard was a product of his times and, growing up in the early part of the 20th century, homophobia was more widespread in US society than it is now. There was (and still is) a misconception that homosexuality is also paedophilia; as is generally recognised now, the two are separate manifestation of human sexuality.

I'm beginning to wonder now if, rather than a homosexual, L Ron Hubbard wasn't at some stage in his youth the object of a paedophile's attentions?? His strident opposition to homosexuality, his overt machismo, his need to sexualise females, his inability to sustain long-term intimate relationships, his constant need for control, and his inability to soften his view even in light of his son's sexuality, all speak of an over-compensation in response to some unresolved "issue".

Freud could've helped him with that ; )

He might have been sexually abused as a child, as you say – that would be another chapter in his life not covered in his “official” biography. The world, or at least the ex-Scientologists, needs to know the details of Hubbard’s past.
I disagree with one thing, though – once gay is always gay by definition of homosexuality. There might be “reformed” gays, but currently there is no scientific terms referring to them.

 

[Ulduz]

TO me,

Lrh has been the most perverted persons I encounter that could succed to make so much people shamed of hw the nature have created them , like any othe being, with genitla organs to reproduce and get some pleasure doing so.

He made a teaching body of work from his own perversions and obsessive compulsive thinking and behavior k of ''sex and aberration''

I never heard or read this man talking about what a beautiful encounter could be a true love and tender union accomplished into the copulation and the most beautifull creation of human beings - making babies, love them, educate them, and let them grow happy.
His tendency was to degrade anything beautifull and pure of it's true nature.
(years after I left CO$ I realized that all the nature ot the nature is being a pervert thing to him and taught he should have left drugs and masturbation - put his low balls in his pants and get the fuck walking and observing nature, He would have seen frogs to copulate many different way without being agitated or suffering any perturbation because of the neighbour trying to put it into a male frog''
also frogs are not cruel and care about children and knows how to educate them and show them what like is all about - What LRH never knew. )


within his mind there was not such things - of sexuality as a mean of expressinglove
only depravation and perversion.

He did not know that the vast majority of people are able - to experience the beauty of sexuality - wich is a different thing than ''genitality'' and are not in general, as aberrated as his mind was.

So was he gay? or Bi? , I don't give a sh...

I just really really really hope
That he never abused sexually some of the kids on the ship.
I always had a bad feeling about that.
I hope I am wrong.

This is my main fear and concern.

According to L. Ron Hubbard Junior, LRH believed that he is Satan. Why would Satan talk about love?

 

[Infinite]

He might have been sexually abused as a child, as you say – that would be another chapter in his life not covered in his “official” biography. The world, or at least the ex-Scientologists, needs to know the details of Hubbard’s past.
I disagree with one thing, though – once gay is always gay by definition of homosexuality. There might be “reformed” gays, but currently there is no scientific terms referring to them.

Are you 12?

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

I don't think so. Why does it matter to you?

I've admitted my own sexuality doubts, but as I've never paid for it, I don't see that I can be bi-sexual.

RPX

 

[Panda Termint]

Buy sexual? That doesn't sound like you at all.

 

[Ulduz]

Are you 12?

The software I was using for this post sucks. Sorry about that.

 

[Ulduz]

I've admitted my own sexuality doubts, but as I've never paid for it, I don't see that I can be bi-sexual.

RPX

Doubts do not matter, actions do. One of my ex-girlfrieds had doubts about her sexuality, but she never acted upon them.

 

[Lurker5]

I was just wondering that myself, Infinite - maybe he was raped as a kid . . .

It seems unlikely to me that L Ron Hubbard was gay or bisexual. Even if the Satanic rites he participated in involved homosexual acts, a person does not need to be homo/bisexual to take part. Isolated incidents of homosexual acts, particularly in youth, are not evidence of a fixed sexuality. L Ron Hubbard was a hugely complicated character and certainly participated in all that life has to offer.

There is, however, a real disgust for homosexuals throughout Scientology, both in its scripture and in its actions. I have put this down, largely, to the fact that L Ron Hubbard was a product of his times and, growing up in the early part of the 20th century, homophobia was more widespread in US society than it is now. There was (and still is) a misconception that homosexuality is also paedophilia; as is generally recognised now, the two are separate manifestation of human sexuality.

I'm beginning to wonder now if, rather than a homosexual, L Ron Hubbard wasn't at some stage in his youth the object of a paedophile's attentions?? His strident opposition to homosexuality, his overt machismo, his need to sexualise females, his inability to sustain long-term intimate relationships, his constant need for control, and his inability to soften his view even in light of his son's sexuality, all speak of an over-compensation in response to some unresolved "issue".

Freud could've helped him with that ; )

 

[ClamSource]

If you go to youtube and search on "scientology christmas carol" apart from one of the all time epic Anonymous trolls, you see the line "Hubbard was touching kids (true)".

Very much wonder how much there is to this. Certainly Hubbard's "children are fully developed thetans" is not inconsistent with pedophiles who argue that children can give informed consent. Then there is his early fiction which seems to feature child sexual abuse. Also, Hubbard spent time as a youth in the company of much older men.

Not conclusive in my opinion, but when you factor his obvious mental pathology, you do start to wonder.

 

[Ulduz]

If you go to youtube and search on "scientology christmas carol" apart from one of the all time epic Anonymous trolls, you see the line "Hubbard was touching kids (true)".

Very much wonder how much there is to this. Certainly Hubbard's "children are fully developed thetans" is not inconsistent with pedophiles who argue that children can give informed consent. Then there is his early fiction which seems to feature child sexual abuse. Also, Hubbard spent time as a youth in the company of much older men.

Not conclusive in my opinion, but when you factor his obvious mental pathology, you do start to wonder.

One cannot invent plausible child molestation stories without having real experience in this field.

 

[Rmack]

He was the one that did that Playboy interview was he not

I believe it was a Penthouse interview. LRH Jr., changed to Ron DeWolf, his mothers last name.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Ulduz, two men having sex together does not mean that either of them are gay. Sexuality is far more complex than that.

When Wolfenden did his report on male sexuality which lead to the decriminalization of homosexuality in Britain, he was looking at the vast number of straight men who were getting relief from other men when their wives were 'having headaches'. Public toilets in the UK, and throughout the western world, were full of married men. There was plenty of sex, no attachment, no strings attached. Why go to a tart and have to pay money when you could get relief from a willing stranger, two chaps having fun together, comrades.

If you look at hook up sites for gentlemen you'll be surprised to see the amount of straight happily married men that love something warm inside them.

That is not homosexuality, where men lust after each other, not as substitutes for females, but because they are men. There is attachment, and longing to be loved by another man.

Sexuality is complicated and varies from individual to individual, but it's safe to say that just because guys get their kit off and do magick doesn't mean they are gay or straight or bi.

LRH is dead, buried, over due to report back. If he had sex with male dolphins it's of no interest to me. I don't care if gave head to several blue whales, it doesn't change his status, snake oil salesman, living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Ulduz]

Ulduz, two men having sex together does not mean that either of them are gay. Sexuality is far more complex than that.

When Wolfenden did his report on male sexuality which lead to the decriminalization of homosexuality in Britain, he was looking at the vast number of straight men who were getting relief from other men when their wives were 'having headaches'. Public toilets in the UK, and throughout the western world, were full of married men. There was plenty of sex, no attachment, no strings attached. Why go to a tart and have to pay money when you could get relief from a willing stranger, two chaps having fun together, comrades.

If you look at hook up sites for gentlemen you'll be surprised to see the amount of straight happily married men that love something warm inside them.

That is not homosexuality, where men lust after each other, not as substitutes for females, but because they are men. There is attachment, and longing to be loved by another man.

Sexuality is complicated and varies from individual to individual, but it's safe to say that just because guys get their kit off and do magick doesn't mean they are gay or straight or bi.

LRH is dead, buried, over due to report back. If he had sex with male dolphins it's of no interest to me. I don't care if gave head to several blue whales, it doesn't change his status, snake oil salesman, living in cloud cuckoo land.

You might be right about the warmth and all that, but the idea of who is gay and who is not is not mine, I just borrowed it from some articles that I read on my flight to Los Angeles. The whole topic of homosexuality with its complexities is of little interest to me, so I'm not gonna get into argument with you. To be blant, I might lose the argument, and this is not something I would enjoy.
In a perverse way LRH is a historic figure, so the topic of his sexuality is of considerable interest to many including myself. It may not matter to you whether Caesar was gay/bisexual or not, but it matters to the historians and history buffs like myself. The same applies to LRH.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

I see, but you will never know will you?

You may find evidence that he shagged Austin Powers it wouldn't mean he was gay.

You may find evidence that he fathered children, it doesn't mean he was straight.

There may be evidence that he fathered a devil while spit roasting Queen Elizabeth with Robert Mugabe on the other end. It doesn't make him Bi.

It's a question with no answer.

If you enjoy thinking about his sex life...enjoy yourself, that face, fat belly and ginger pubes, yeuchchch!

 

[clamicide]

You might be right about the warmth and all that, but the idea of who is gay and who is not is not mine, I just borrowed it from some articles that I read on my flight to Los Angeles. The whole topic of homosexuality with its complexities is of little interest to me, so I'm not gonna get into argument with you. To be blant, I might lose the argument, and this is not something I would enjoy.
In a perverse way LRH is a historic figure, so the topic of his sexuality is of considerable interest to many including myself. It may not matter to you whether Caesar was gay/bisexual or not, but it matters to the historians and history buffs like myself. The same applies to LRH.

I hope one day we can dispense with that crud. I mean...both 'sides' engage in it. Those who are supportive of those who are gay/bi/whatever, really WANT to claim those folks in history, and go of course... WE have been around forever, and contributed to society. I don't blame them, really...

The flip-side is those who think it's some horrific side of humanity, and want to find all those who are psychotic who happened to be queer to prove THEIR point.

When the HELL do we get it to the point where it come irrelevant? Obviously, not yet. I hope I see that day. I know it is all just simply anecdotal, but, I had to love chatting with folks I met in Ireland who were staunchly Irish Catholic who reverently referred to the "Queer on the Square" (Oscar Wilde)...and just really had no problem with the whole thing, and was tickled to find so much affection for him and acceptance of what everyone 'knew', but didn't quite talk about....it's an Irish thing lol.... I definitely looked it up once I got back home...and was surprised to find so much in similar vein

Also, I know it's 'old', but in some way, I do think there is some validity to the Kinsey Scale... classifying someone into "gay/hetero/bi" ick...kind of reminds me of Hubs classifications. There is part of me that wants to CLING onto the whole 'simplicity' stuff he preached...but, we live today, in situations, and with all sorts of stuff going on...and so, it might not be 'simple'.

oh, and fuck it...I just saw Paul Konerko hit a home fun for the FIFTH game in a row...and I'm damned glad that that makes me forget about that Scio stuff....glad I looked up from the message board. Love you guys...but, I'm so glad that I can get pulled back into what is happening when it happens. Even if it is as non-universe-saving as a baseball game.

 

[uniquemand]

I hope one day we can dispense with that crud. I mean...both 'sides' engage in it. Those who are supportive of those who are gay/bi/whatever, really WANT to claim those folks in history, and go of course... WE have been around forever, and contributed to society. I don't blame them, really...

The flip-side is those who think it's some horrific side of humanity, and want to find all those who are psychotic who happened to be queer to prove THEIR point.

When the HELL do we get it to the point where it come irrelevant? Obviously, not yet. I hope I see that day. I know it is all just simply anecdotal, but, I had to love chatting with folks I met in Ireland who were staunchly Irish Catholic who reverently referred to the "Queer on the Square" (Oscar Wilde)...and just really had no problem with the whole thing, and was tickled to find so much affection for him and acceptance of what everyone 'knew', but didn't quite talk about....it's an Irish thing lol.... I definitely looked it up once I got back home...and was surprised to find so much in similar vein

Also, I know it's 'old', but in some way, I do think there is some validity to the Kinsey Scale... classifying someone into "gay/hetero/bi" ick...kind of reminds me of Hubs classifications. There is part of me that wants to CLING onto the whole 'simplicity' stuff he preached...but, we live today, in situations, and with all sorts of stuff going on...and so, it might not be 'simple'.

oh, and fuck it...I just saw Paul Konerko hit a home fun for the FIFTH game in a row...and I'm damned glad that that makes me forget about that Scio stuff....glad I looked up from the message board. Love you guys...but, I'm so glad that I can get pulled back into what is happening when it happens. Even if it is as non-universe-saving as a baseball game.

It is an irrelevancy. The reason it is being discussed is that people are discussing it.

Want it to stop? Stop.

 

[Panda Termint]

It is an irrelevancy. The reason it is being discussed is that people are discussing it.

Want it to stop? Stop.

In my opinion, this sort of speculation says more about the speculator than the speculated-about.
When asked, "Why does it matter to you?" the answer was ....

I was wondering how powerful the OT magic is. Without gay sex no one could get to the OT Infinity level. (or, maybe, I'm talking about OTO levels)

That's a strange answer to the question.

I think it's time that Ulduz told us a bit more about himself and why he thinks the way he does, most of his threads read like distraction-trolling to me.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

It seems unlikely to me that L Ron Hubbard was gay or bisexual. Even if the Satanic rites he participated in involved homosexual acts, a person does not need to be homo/bisexual to take part. Isolated incidents of homosexual acts, particularly in youth, are not evidence of a fixed sexuality. L Ron Hubbard was a hugely complicated character and certainly participated in all that life has to offer.

There is, however, a real disgust for homosexuals throughout Scientology, both in its scripture and in its actions. I have put this down, largely, to the fact that L Ron Hubbard was a product of his times and, growing up in the early part of the 20th century, homophobia was more widespread in US society than it is now. There was (and still is) a misconception that homosexuality is also paedophilia; as is generally recognised now, the two are separate manifestation of human sexuality.

I'm beginning to wonder now if, rather than a homosexual, L Ron Hubbard wasn't at some stage in his youth the object of a paedophile's attentions?? His strident opposition to homosexuality, his overt machismo, his need to sexualise females, his inability to sustain long-term intimate relationships, his constant need for control, and his inability to soften his view even in light of his son's sexuality, all speak of an over-compensation in response to some unresolved "issue".

Freud could've helped him with that ; )

This is the most credible post here. There is evidence for what you say in LRH's admission published by Gerry Armstrong on his website. LRH says he was taught to masturbate at some age between 10-13 (I can't remember but he gives the exact age in the admissions). It doesn't explicitly state that this was by an adult, but I cannot imagine a child doing this. If it was an adult, there's your sexual abuse right there.

As to homosexuality being a necessity for high level black magic, I am a skeptic and I think the whole idea is ridiculus. Show me a theta clear who can dodge bullets like LRH said you could in SHSBC lecture 1 and maybe I will take this sort of nonsense seriously.

As to LRH knowing Crowley, although in PDC leacture 18 Hubbard refers to Crowley as 'my good friend,' it is unlikey they ever met. Crowley was a 70 year old heroine addict on his deathbed in France and he died within about a year of Hubbard's contact with Parsons. I doubt Crowley was smitten by Hubbard.

That being said, there is a real possibility that Parsons and Hubbard had some sort of sexual contact. In the same list of admissions mentioned above, Hubbard hints at this saying that any disgust he has for Parsons came from a magical experiment. My guess is that experiment was a homosexual one. Although Hubbard was not high up in the OTO, Parsons regarded him as a natural magician. I can just see him 'restimulating' Hubbards childhood incident.

As to the allegations made by Ron De Wolfe in the Penthouse article, he makes so many claims that are absurd that none of it can be taken seriously.

In short, if LRH was bisexual, there is no evidence of it. He may have dressed in an feminine manner, but so do many heterosexual men. I suspect if he was bisexual, some of the exes would have said so by now, particularly the original Ex-SO from the 1960's and 70s (like Hanna Eltringham). Pretty hard to hide that on a boat. Everything else has come out in the wash, why hasn't this? Probably because it is not true.

I think he was a heterosexual man who was sexually abused by men. I have heard suggestions he may have been abused by 'Snake' Thompson, but I doubt this claim and have seen no evidence to support it. He speaks fondly of him in his lectures. I think we can be reasonably certain he was molested as a child by some unknown person and possibly as an adult by Parsons.

Also, contrary to some of the opinions expressed on this thread, this issue is very relevant. His sexuality is not of itself of any interest, but he created an entire system of belief on the basis of his on twisted mind. There are a lot of gay people in Scientology who are suffering because of Scientology's attitude. I know gay Catholics who had a far worse time because of their religion. If a gay Scientologist chances upon this, it might help them.