Was Ron a true believer?

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
My wishfull thinking can be found in post 35.

The "fact" can be found in Lawrence Wright's book, Marty's last book
and Marty's website.

Or are they all wishfull thinking also?

yes...
Hubbard had to die for CST to get tax exemption...
And I don't care what Wright said, to me, this is merely evidence he listened to some bad advice...

And Hubbard, the paranoid schizophrenic, knew he was running a covert hypnotic scam from the start....LINK (last 5 paragraphs)
anything else he may have supposedly said in his later years may be attributed to dementia...
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
yes...
Hubbard had to die for CST to get tax exemption...
And I don't care what Wright said, to me, this is merely evidence he listened to some bad advice...

And Hubbard, the paranoid schizophrenic, knew he was running a covert hypnotic scam from the start....LINK (last 5 paragraphs)
anything else he may have supposedly said in his later years may be attributed to dementia...

May I conclude from your previous posts that you believe Sarge may as well have invented the thing of Hubbard saying having failed?

Why would Sarge have done that?

Or is something told only a "fact" if the person who tells it (Hubbard) is not in a "state of dementia". In other words, if in a state of dementia everything the poor person says is never said and people witness it take note that it was never said?
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
May I conclude from your previous posts that you believe Sarge may as well have invented the thing of Hubbard saying having failed?

Why would Sarge have done that?

Or is something told only a "fact" if the person who tells it (Hubbard) is not in a "state of dementia". In other words, if in a state of dementia everything the poor person says is never said and people witness it take note that it was never said?

No you may not. You are using Straw Man Fallacy.

"A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. [3] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[4][5]

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue."



Hubbard was a confirmed liar. He told people what they wanted to hear to get their money or keep their support.
The "Reactive Mind" was itself a shore story, a lie, a pretense, a fabrication... then he told us HE had the answer to get rid of it.
All of it lies..

The only fact I need to know about anyone is do they lie to determine who is friend or foe.

Arnie Lerma

whathubbardwasthinking.jpg
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
I don't think the arguments whether Hubbard believed in his own propaganda and whether he intended to start a religion are mutually exclusive. Yes, by all accounts, he did intend to start a religion, and yeah, the irony being that it didn't get tax exempt status later.

The argument, 'he must have believed it worked if he kept getting auditing' sort of falls flat on its face as the other side of the argument is that if the tech worked, even somewhat, why didn't it work? It wasn't working for him which he couldn't fail to notice. :duh:

Can you imagine though if was something like a company manufacturing a car with known faults, there would be product recalls immediately, full refunds, goodwill gestures.

Am somewhat undecided though on the statement, 'I failed' as evidence of his sanity, albeit a dying statement of truth, or evidence of his insanity in that he didn't admit any of his past failures along the way, but just a summary that he fucked it all up. But continued to take money for it..
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Was Ron always a complete nutter and did we encourage ( and enable) the insanity?

The lower level auditing did and does "work" ... why wouldn't it? It's formatted to appear "technical" and somewhat complicated (to justify the time and expense) but its really just two people chatting with all the attention on the "PC".

Of course it "works" depending on how much the "PC" wants the attention and has a need to feel heard and is willing to keep paying for it. Hubbard must have quickly realised that and was certainly a true believer in his stolen theory's and tek from that point on ... but after a while he had to produce something else to keep the punters interested and apparently all he could come up with was Uncle Xenu and "body thetans". Even he must have realised he was pushing his luck at that point but Hubbards followers encouraged his madness and even payed him to remain mad, that in itself is almost criminal.

We actively encouraged a mad man, without us he would have been just another saggy arsed wannabe guru with awful teeth.

There's ample documented information on this board that proves hubbard was a born liar, a paranoid and vile tempered con artist and a vicious and uncaring parent ... why would anyone even want to defend him personally? Whether he was a 'true believer' in himself and his con or not isn't important (to me). It clearly was a con though (or at best a lunatics dream come true) and anyone willing to review the facts can see that and will do so unless they are trying to maintain some kind of belief for their own reasons.

I believe he knew he was making it up as he went along, certainly at the beginning but he was at the right place at the right time and people bought it, just as they buy many things they don't understand or need.

Hubbard did the unforgivable with his "product" though, he added elements (probably due to his insanity) that ENTRAPPED people and caused devastation to families.

Really, how hard is it to see the truth on this issue, if you actually want to see it???

:confused2:
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I often hear that Ron was out to scam people and Scientology never had an other purpose than to defraud . . .

L Ron Hubbard said he invented "discovered" Dianetics when curing injuries he received in combat during World War II. He made those claims in 1950. Since then, we have discovered . . .

6477087591_7bd20882f5_z.jpg

. . . how anyone can suggest L Ron Hubbard was not attempting to defraud people right from the very beginning defies rational thought and DOX.
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dianetics is closest to Psychiatric Abreaction Therapy.... (Abreaction is an acronym for Abnormal Reaction Therapy - the biggest difference between that and Dianetics the modern pseudoscience of picking people's wallets.....is in Abreaction therapy it is ok to invent (see 'mock up' in clam lingo) an incident to explain one's neurosis.

L Ron Hubbard said he invented "discovered" Dianetics when curing injuries he received in combat during World War II. He made those claims in 1950. Since then, we have discovered . . .

(snip)

Now, see how the great poseur twisted the real truth to suit his scam....

Dr William Sargant, then the HEAD of British psychiatry, discarded Abreactive Therapy during WWII... because it took too long to train practitioners and was not always effective...and adopted SHOCK therapy.. in order to return soldiers to the front in Africa, who were reeling from Rommel's Blitzkreigs, fast enough to win WWII.

Psychiatry was demonized for the same reason *I* and others who expose $cientology are demonized... so that true believers will not dare chance to learn that Hubbard was practicing a perverted-to-create-dependency-and-psychosis and turned upon it's head, version of PSYCHIATRY upon YOU.

The similarities in content and topic of Dr William Sargant's must-read-book titled Battle for the MIND convinces every past reader of 'Dianetics' that Hubbard indeed stole much from the head of Psychiatry in the UK...

regards
Arnie Lerma

PS (for I told you I was trouble): Covert suggesting and hypnosis ALSO work best in the beginning of hypnotic therapy...
 
I don't think the arguments whether Hubbard believed in his own propaganda and whether he intended to start a religion are mutually exclusive. Yes, by all accounts, he did intend to start a religion, and yeah, the irony being that it didn't get tax exempt status later.

The argument, 'he must have believed it worked if he kept getting auditing' sort of falls flat on its face as the other side of the argument is that if the tech worked, even somewhat, why didn't it work? It wasn't working for him which he couldn't fail to notice. :duh:

Can you imagine though if was something like a company manufacturing a car with known faults, there would be product recalls immediately, full refunds, goodwill gestures.

Am somewhat undecided though on the statement, 'I failed' as evidence of his sanity, albeit a dying statement of truth, or evidence of his insanity in that he didn't admit any of his past failures along the way, but just a summary that he fucked it all up. But continued to take money for it..

but it does work...

been using it for forty years with great results...
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
but it does work...

been using it for forty years with great results...

What is IT?

Mice OR body thetans and reactive minds......

The former was for entertainment, the others were to pick your pocket



Hypnosis has been "work"ing since the dawn of time.

Electricity has been known to "work" since 154AD
"Just how long would I have to run a small electric current through your body, while telling you things that you wanted to hear, before you became convinced that I held the secrets of the universe?" Lerma

see Scribonius Largus LINK

FRAUD the worst of sins
LINK
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I often hear that Ron was out to scam people and Scientology never had an other purpose than to defraud.

I would say yes. Remember when he was on the ship giving a lecture, and these boats would pass by. He thought he'd try to impress the attendees, by telling them what was outside the window, while he was facing the other direction, but easily seen by the attendees. He was wrong, so Ron could not "go exterior", but he did sell "exteriorization" at a high price.

Then there was that time he was going to dig up treasure that he'd buried in a past life. Nope, nothing there. And he was a war hero and healed himself with dianetics. Only he made that up too. Related, is the fraudulent collection of medals.

There are many examples of this. Remember when it was: oh, we're finally making Clears. And his example to an audience was "Bianca", who, when asked could not say what his neck tie looked like. He knew damn well it was all BS.

Don't forget, if you read OT3, without taking all the previous classes, it will kill you. What a crazy fuck!
 
What is IT?

Mice OR body thetans and reactive minds......

The former was for entertainment, the others were to pick your pocket



Hypnosis has been "work"ing since the dawn of time.

Electricity has been known to "work" since 154AD
"Just how long would I have to run a small electric current through your body, while telling you things that you wanted to hear, before you became convinced that I held the secrets of the universe?" Lerma

see Scribonius Largus LINK

FRAUD the worst of sins
LINK

i never use hypnosis arnie nor have i picked any pockets...
 
My co-audit twin and I have looked into this matter of hypnosis and belief, at length.

We are both aware of Hubbard's history and actual origins of his tech.

Speaking for myself, I have greatly benefited from Arnie's exposure of the hypnosis factor, as well as Veda's exposure of the true sources.

We have spotted and removed the hypnosis from our auditing, though there is a certain degree of hypnosis going on with almost anyone in any situation. The primary source of hypnosis in an auditing session is "altitude" - the idea that your auditor knows what he/she is doing, which becomes trust which can also become hypnosis if taken too far.

Taken too far? An extreme example would be these new Flag-trained "SuperPower" auditors - trained within an inch of their life to never reveal a speck of doubt (called "total certainty") or let your pc out of your total control. Doubt on the part of the pc? Send straight to ethics, or handle as a "resistive case."

The irony is that techniques (including certain questions on correction lists) exist in the "system" to undo bad effects of hypnosis, but they are not encouraged. No one in the system is really allowed to question it.

Having studied Hubbard's history at length, I will give out my opinion on how the tech developed and when he was both a "true believer" and earnestly working to make the tech benefit people (though with whatever motives you want to assign - they were all seemingly present in greater or lesser degree throughout - greed, ego, power, domination - and yes, nobler motives that I agree are evident in the work he poured into a great many of the lectures and writings). The Alan Walter write-up is the most comprehensive on all this.
http://paulsrabbit.com/The-ESMB-Posts.pdf

Dianetics actually was developed by Freud-Breuer. My co-audit twin did a side-by-side comparison of translated lectures done ~1911 when they first came to America to lecture. It is all there. Engrams, engram chains. (Yes, William Sargeant employed these techniques and wrote a book about it which Arnie says Hubbard may well have had access to in his internships at Elizabeth hospital.)
See http://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com...3-the-first-scientologists-and-their-masters/
for an in-depth study of this background.

He "borrowed" those ideas for Dianetics and when it got popular he worked on furthering the research - not always by ethical means.

The primary reason it became slightly more "workable" was the number of researchers doing the work and coming up with new ideas and techniques.

But the real discovery - the engine that runs Scientology and its "workability" came not from Ron but from Jack Horner:

The Origin of Repetitive Processes
During that period when I was working at the
Los Angeles organization, about the time I left
it, I developed a form of what was called “con­-
cept straightwire”, which was a set of repetitive
techniques. Not repeater phrases, but a repeti­tive
question. So I introduced into Dianetics the

idea of the repetitive question, which inciden­tally
I’d forgotten about until A E. van Vogt

(American science fiction writer) reminded me
of it. Hubbard did such a good job of taking the
credit I forgot that I’d developed it

http://articles.ivymag.org/pdf/IVy43.pdf (p.8)


Another important point worth mentioning is that Hubbard probably did not care about the auditing - until - he needed it. In 1951, after Hubbard had kidnapped Alexis and ran to Cuba, where he dictated Science of Survival to his hired companion (Richard de Mille who also wrote "How to Live Though an Executive"). Near the end of this stay, he wrote a desperate letter claiming he was so sick he was dying, and Don Purcell at his own expense flew a team of auditors to rescue Hubbard. While Hubbard was clearly involved in drugs, paranoia and possibly crime (which would have been embezzlement of the New Jersey foundation, which could not pay its bills or account for its money), it is my opinion that Hubbard got a taste of the miracles of talk therapy, attention and care, using his techniques to make him well. He returned to the states with new-found enthusiasm and used Purcell's largesse to establish Dianetics in Wichita (then shortly after turned on his rescuer - a lifelong pattern typical of a psychopath).

The next major step for Hubbard's own belief in the possibilities of the developing technology was, I believe, the arrival of Evans Farber from California who drove all the way out to Phoenix, to introduce Ron to "Be 3 Ft Back of Your Head" in 1952. Apparently, it "worked" on Ron. This revitalized and launched Scientology.

Well, back to Horner's repetitive process, these began trickling in from the field and soon Hubbard had a whole collection of effective processes which he catalogued in "Creation of Human Ability." (late 1953 - published 1954 coincident with the launching of the Scientology religion).

What the repetitive process does, and its value regardless of Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard, is to direct attention into a focused area (not so focused as hypnosis - but can go that way) much in the way that Socratic questioning and the Buddhist Koan accomplishes. The latter is also widely believed to accelerate spiritual growth - via the student-master relationship.

Of course, as was pointed out on this thread, the lower bridge works also on communication and attention. Adding on top of that, it is the repetitive process that "clears" an area up a bit, with a resulting realization on life (which can be perceived, as I do, as "spiritual progress" - if not intellectual progress - exercising the mind).

A lot of people don't realize that the "tech" has already gone into the field of psychology (Traumatic Incident Reduction - not just Dianetics, but the Grades, as well) thanks to Frank Gerbode (a psychiatrist and spurned Mission Holder). So the "tech" has use and acceptance outside the Scio universe.

Yes, Hubbard lied, defrauded and harmed. That is not okay with me.

But contrary to KSW#1, where he lied so badly about "source" - the workable parts of the tech were brought in by many incredible students of the subject.

Still, he led this movement and a positive spin-off of his "make a million starting a religion" was actual, usable stuff that gets people feeling better and "releases" them from the trauma and preoccupation with life problems (again, it is the care and attention factor, plus the mechanics of looking at an area repeatedly until a barrier in that direction is surmounted).

Who knows what it could do if matched with a sane, scientifically correct cosmology and truths that are not booby-trapped as the Scio axioms are.

In my humble opinion, if you want to get back at this charlatan who stole your dreams and wasted your lives (me too!), don't make the mistake of attacking "his" tech - cuz it ain't his. He, hisself, said that "all wisdom belongs to the common man" in January 1965, then turned on us and turned out KSW#1, the disconnection machine called "ethics," an authoritarian Org Board, and secreted Power ALL THAT SAME YEAR (see the above Alan Walter story on Reg Sharpe observing Ron first going psychotic in Summer 1964 - coincident with stealing the Study Tech from the Berners).

After cheating on his wife Mary Sue one too many times, getting deep into his GPM case - over, by his own words, "missed withholds" - he went psychotic (blowing Saint Hill for Rhodesia) and never really recovered. Inventing OT III in 1967 sealed the deal. He now "believed his tech" - lies and all. From there on, his product was destroyed families and lives - the continuing saga of the authoritarian Sea Org.

Not that he was exactly the "good guy" before that, because during this "golden era" of tech development (1951-1964 - as I see it) where he was "winning" with his tech and excitedly pushing the research along, he was still doing other men's wives, booze, mafia-style intimidation, writing psychotic letters to governments, and inventing "Psychopolitics" (1955) passing it off as "Soviet."

I am enjoying the benefits of co-auditing, but it is by no means the only way to handle life and you can get messed up if you think that is so. Balanced with actively pursuing your own goals in life, and study of subjects of interest (outside the Scio bubble) it is actually quite helpful.

My opinion.
 
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