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Wayt... Whut???

Terril park

Sponsor
Ok, so then before she sent the email, she had already decided she was out of Scn for good?

Seems like from the FB posts on this thread that she was still a Scientologist even while they were suing her.

More importantly in her own words in the mail. When she wrote this she
she could have no idea she would win a future lawsuit and not face
financial destruction.

"I am completely dedicated to the technology of Dianetics and Scientology and the works of LRH. I have seen some of the most stunning and miraculous results in the application of LRH technology and I absolutely know it is worth fighting to keep it pure and unadulterated. My husband and I are in good standing and we are not connected with anyone who is not in good standing. We have steadfastly refused to speak to any media, even though many have contacted us. But I do have some very serious concerns about out-KSW that I see permeating the Scientology religion. I have the utmost respect for the thousands of dedicated Scientologists and Sea Org members. Together, we have come through everything this world could throw at us and have some real impingement on the world around us. I am proud of our accomplishments and I know you are too. However there is no question that this new age of continuous fundraising is not our finest moment." [snip

- See more at: http://www.scientology-cult.com/debbie-cooks-email.html#sthash.BKfFLcY5.dpuf
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Not sure I fully understand what you mean apart from that we disagree. :)

I am purely saying: If you took part in the decision making within the church - You have in my opinion(remember we are talking about opinions), a responsibility to yourself and your fellow people, to own up to what you have created.

It's too easy to put all the responsibility for what is wrong in scientology on 2 peoples heads, Ron and the Cabbage.

I am saying even Marty was a Brainwashed puppy
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
I am saying even Marty was a Brainwashed puppy

If you would have said brainwashed doberman we would be in agreement. :)

Still, at what point are you a victim and at what point are you an offender? In one extreme all people influenced, brainwashed, by scientology are victims. Including Miscabbage and Ron, on the other extreme everyone who has committed crimes under its banners are all criminals.

I have thought long and hard on this, believe me, and I know what my opinion is, and I have yet to see something that would change it.

No point zeesawing back and fourth Kat, I think we both know we disagree on this one. :)
 
Even those born into it? Blood on their hands because most of them never had a more normal point of view to compare their world to?
Yes, but how many born into it leave? I think if one feels he was a victim because he was born into it, that is his viewpoint. How different is it for any person born into a religion they don't agree with? The other day there was an article about a Mormon born into a polygamous sect - she was married off at something like 16 to an 80 year old man. She, having lived in a totally isolated community, hopped the fence and got the hell out of dodge. She didn't have a clue how to live in the outside world. She is now raining hell fire on them. You think you are a victim or you don't.

Personally, and I accept whatever scorn I get for my viewpoint, I think the labeling of people born into scientology as victims is grand standing BS. If they feel they are, fine. It's their life. Whatever. But it is not for me to foist off that label on them.

I was in scientology for around 43 years - except for some foolish financial fuckups, I don't really regret it. I had plenty of friends, and I thought I was doing the right thing. I felt I was a better person for it. Do I like the fact I am still paying a second for donos and shit I bought while on lines? Hell no. But, I forked over the dough. My bad. Nonetheless, I don't consider myself a victim.

Mimsey
 

AnonKat

Crusader
If you would have said brainwashed doberman we would be in agreement. :)

Still, at what point are you a victim and at what point are you an offender? In one extreme all people influenced, brainwashed, by scientology are victims. Including Miscabbage and Ron, on the other extreme everyone who has committed crimes under its banners are all criminals.

I have thought long and hard on this, believe me, and I know what my opinion is, and I have yet to see something that would change it.

No point zeesawing back and fourth Kat, I think we both know we disagree on this one. :)

He needs not set himself up to be an target for the Church of Scientology.

My home is open to any refugee Ask Terril Park , he has slept in my house and met a Kurdish Refugee that I gave shelter too

I am THIS:

[video=youtube;RWzRKxhpPA0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWzRKxhpPA0[/video]
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I don't know who you are asking here. If it is me, and my impression, yes - she had been thinking about what and how to do things before the e-mail. As you saw in the one screenshot (I have many) she was giving the impression on FB and in her letter that she was "in good standing" and a scientologist all the way. This impression was a vital tool. First, her name. She had clout, and secondly, that she was speaking as a scientologist in good standing, quoting policy and Hubbard. This was a key point in reaching people.

Clearly, she was not. She befriended me on FB using a pseudonym, and an admitted critic. She brought me in knowing that we'd never know each other and that she'd never know my name. I have posted my opinions here, but this transcends opinion; she was working with SPs like me. And then Team Debbie. They seemed to be out of the business-of-scientology. Once in a chat, a member of Team Debbie asked me: Do you think David Miscavige is un-mocking scientology? I said yes, I do. So there was some lingo used, but the people supporting her effort did not seem to be acceptable by sci standards.

This was executed very well, and she did prevail.

Ok I think this answers my question. I want to watch all the videos, but I can't now. Maybe tomorrow. I think I am done with this subject. I hope others have learned something or or not wasted too much time on this thread...
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
He needs not set himself up to be an target for the Church of Scientology.

My home is open to any refugee Ask Terril Park , he has slept in my house and met a Kurdish Refugee that I gave shelter too

I am THIS:

[video=youtube;RWzRKxhpPA0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWzRKxhpPA0[/video]

That is entirely up to her, I assume we are still talking about Debbie, or Marty if he is the one you refer to. My belief is still that the "Church" will keep steaming on with its abuses for a long time. I'd say give it 50 years and it should have decomposed itself to whoever will take over after the Cabbage and 2-300 or so loyal followers - and then *poof*

Or someone like Marty, Debbie, Mike, or the others top dogs will go to the federales with a nice list of why scientology should be scrubbed.

Or something really nasty will happen, like Wako, and the government will find itself having to take action to prevent further crazies from the cult.

I wish I had a nice list of refugees who has partied at my place like you do, all I got is a stray wiener and two kittens.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Ok I think this answers my question. I want to watch all the videos, but I can't now. Maybe tomorrow. I think I am done with this subject. I hope others have learned something or or not wasted too much time on this thread...

You will learn that the Chuvh of Scientology makes you a suspicious bunny

This is my musical take on that

[video=youtube;_AmkmqYEarw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmkmqYEarw[/video]
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Lulu, I agree with you on some level. I remember reading that DM as a young boy/teen-ager actually beat down several of his auditors, male and female, physically assaulted them in a rage, and it was part of a cover-up because he was also very powerful and persuasive even at that age. I think he was on some advanced Scientology training for kids and he got kicked out because of his violence but was brought back later. Again, I can't remember where I read this, but I know I'm not making it up because it is vivid in my mind.

And, as I recall, a senior male auditor dipped into his folder and tried bring attention to the fact that after a certain point DM was rising in the organization but he either wasn't being audited anymore, or there was some kind of problem - but the auditor was disciplined and I think intimidated by DM as well. (By his late teens, DM was already really scary.) Someone else may be able to confirm this story - but I know I am right about the overall facts. Basically, at some point, DM started getting a free pass because he was sort of a Scientology Wunderkind - billed as one of the youngest auditors - even though he hadn't had any real training himself.

As I believe the organization is sociopathic in nature, boys (and some girls) with that tendency are in the perfect soil to manifest that kind of behavior.

At the same time, I think anyone who is brought into Scientology as a child is a victim in my eyes, no exceptions. I think DM was brought in around the age of 13, if not younger. Perhaps in another family, in a different world, he would have gotten the medication he needed, or be encouraged to use his power in more constructive ways. Putting him in an organization like Scientology, where nice people can become raging monsters through the tech, put gasoline on an already raging forest fire. We'll never know what he might have been like in "regular" society.

Still, he has to be accountable for his crimes. This comes back to the very real conversation - is brainwashing a kind of temporary insanity? How culpable is someone when they are acting out within a cult? When I think of the people who gave their children the poisoned kool-aid in Jonestown - no rational parent would poison their child for any reason. But these people were so sick, caught in the logic of that group and under the persuasion of that man, that the decision made sense to them at the time. Those that rebelled, I assume, were coerced.

I can see DM as a victim, and still want him to have a day of reckoning. But ultimately, I think it is a false assumption to think that if a house dropped out of the sky on COB tomorrow that we could all come out from the behind the trees and flowers and sing, "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead" and have a big party and it would all be over, because there would probably be someone right behind him to take his place. Even Jenna Hill in her book acknowledges that while she truly hates her uncles behavior, she thinks the real enemy is Scientology, and that's what must be stopped.

Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate your point of view, and appreciate the objectivity of all the never-ins here at ESMB.

I would like to interject a point. EVERY SINGLE ONE of us who were in the cult - fed the monster. We (the exes) all have blood on our hands – yes some more than others – but all of us have blood on our hands to some degree!

We were involved with (hello) – A CULT! We were brainwashed and instilled with the “us versus them” attitude. The Cult of Scientology is an exceptionally evil and insidious one. All of us are victims of the monster who fed the monster. Now that we know the truth, we have to try to make peace with that.

:soapbox:

Thanks Aegerprimo, I appreciate this too.

This may be a stretch, but I think one of the reasons that some of us on the outside are so fascinated with Scientology (and I should be clear, I actually don't really give much of a shit about Hubbard as a person, or his ideas, except as they pertain to brainwashing, which I think he had a talent for) because it resonates on deeper soul levels.

I'm interested in the church as a bully, the way people can be be taught to throw away reason in certain situations and do that which is counterintuitive to their soul, (like watching a pregnant woman in a boiler suit running around on the RPF scrubbing toilets and thinking that is good for her eternity or she's done something to deserve that.)

For me, Scientology - the story as it plays out in the public eye - is kind of like a modern day morality play. I don't mean to trivialize people's personal experience - but the people I mentioned before, Tori, Emma, Mark Headley, Arnie, and others become folk heroes in a constantly unfolding drama of good people being sucked into something nefarious and standing up to a what I honestly believe is one of the most malevolent forces we now have on the planet. If the "Scientology Story" were a comic book, it would be filled with villains, traitors, spies, heroes, and, like any great drama, one can put oneself in it psychologically and ask questions like, "If I had been in the church, who would I be? If I left, would I accept a payout? Would I be an activist? What would I have done in the RPF?"

My point is that, for lack of a better comparison, the Scientology experience feels archetypically to me like the difference between perfume and toilet water for what a lot of us go through. Many of us have committed our crimes (as a American, I'm not thrilled that my tax dollars helped fund two wars), and we know what it is like to be a part of a tribe (families, work, relationships) where we are bullied, feel coerced to do what someone else wants of us, make compromises, sell ourselves out, or believed in something or something that ultimately failed us (Enron).

Scientology is a society, just like any other society, with a set of rules, and I believe when you are completely engaged in that world, reality takes on a completely different meaning. Human beings psychologically adjust very quickly to their surroundings in order to survive.

One last example: movie popcorn. (Bare with me...I know this sounds crazy.) I visited my friend in a large city, we went to the movies and I bought a large coke and a large popcorn for 13.00. Yes, 13.00. Now, we all know that popcorn and coke are some of the cheapest products to make. What we ate was probably about .30 worth of product. But we all agree, like we agree at concerts, ballgames, airports and movie theaters that a hotdog that would cost you about 30 cents if you made it at home, can be 5 bucks at a football game. Or, a 75 dollar bottle of imported vodka with table service in the VIP section of a club, can cost 700.00, Insane. But you're in a club, so you pay, and you justify it because you want the experience.

I think a lot of the evil done in Scientology is done with the idea that yes, this may feel wrong, but you are doing it for a bigger purpose, a purpose that will become clearer to you as you go along. I hope this doesn't seem like an apology for wrong doing in the church, and I feel I'm rambling a bit here - my point is that I've learned a lot studying Scientology the experience because it has helped me understand concentration camps, gas chambers, and how any of us, under the right persuasive argument, could do something we never thought we'd be capable of. This is also why the resistance to Scientology, the people who chose to fight back, is also so exhilarating, and why I come back here to read and learn more. It also one of the great human dramas of the planet. I'd much rather watch Tori Magoo kicking ass in an interview and calling David Miscavige a limped dick (man) who probably can't get it up. (Her latest interview on Media Mayhem) than watch the X-Men.

The Scientology and Anti-Scientology movements are playing out psychologically what most of us are experiencing in our hearts, but only to a lesser degree with (what we think) are lesser stakes.

it's a paradox: being in a cult is a very particular thing and I don't want to minimize that reality. At the same time, I think all of us have feel we are in a "cult" and want to be liberated. The cult of human experience.

I watched "Crash" again last night, and was struck, again, with how good a film it is, showing the extremes in human behavior - in all of us. We are all capable of extreme behavior, good and bad. It is the circumstances that drive us. Of course who we are plays a part, but we are all capable of horrendous as well as courageous acts. But we are not monkeys/primates. Being human means we can choose how we will behave. Not everyone becomes aware of that. Love lifts us up, where we belong. It takes psychological insight into our own behavior, to rise above the herd. IMHO, co$ attempts to circumvent our higher nature, and turns normal human beings into insects, for the benefit of a few sociopaths at the top. But I think the good human part fights to rise up, and eventually wakes up the human being, who yearns to be free. Then it is up to us, to do what we can, to fight the evil. And the ways to do that, are infinite. Infinite variety is a beautiful thing. :yes:


Thank you for this. The finding of some peace in the grey murky mess that is left after associating with a dirty devious mind-control cult is the hard part. I find it difficult to judge others – and their behaviour – when I know I do have some blood on my own hands.

I have strong feelings about Debbie Cook - for very personal reasons. I chose not to share them in a public arena because I have awareness of the gut-wrenching road(s) ahead of her.

I also feel strongly about her dignity which I surprised even myself about when the whole “Debbie Cook thing” became public. Somehow in the anger I felt, I still had a sense of humanity. This doesn't make me holier than thou, or anything close to noble. I just figured that if I was honestly going to find deep inner peace, I had to stop the black and white thinking and the marginalising people with my old “us and them” (& lacking empathy) thinking.

As an ex-scientologist who was trained to see the world – and people - in very black and white terms, I still find myself, occasionally, craving understanding and control. But life ain’t like that - it is all rather grey, this living life. And that makes it damn uncomfortable especially when injustice rips apart innocent peoples lives and they are left to somehow pick up the pieces.

I guess when all is said and done, when all the details have been hacked apart and there is nothing left to dissect, it comes down to a choice. Victim or victor? In the greyness of life, I feel a bit of both. I was a victim of a mind-controlling cult. I am a victor for walking away and deprogramming the crap, etc. Late at night when she can’t sleep, maybe Debbie also feels the ambivalence of the greyness. I don’t know and I do not even seek to understand. I simply wish her dignity and peace.

Right, climbing back off my soapbox...:)

The above posts are very insightful and resonate with me. I view this thread and all the contributing posts as an opportunity for cult recovery and personal growth. Was I a useful idiot and expendable cannon fodder for the cult, aligning myself to it's purposes? Did I try to advance the cult? Absolutely. Where is that dividing line between follower and enforcer within the cult? I can't say and I've exhausted myself many a night trying to be compassionate while handing down blame and judgments on myself and such folk as Debbie, Marty, and Mike at the same time. Internal confusing black and white circular stuff. This is one of those greyish areas for each person deciding for themselves through their own individual moral core value system what this means.

Speaking solely for myself, seeing my own imperfections and striving to humanize the imperfections in others is a humbling experience. This is something $cientology DOES NOT teach, that each of us is imperfect and search for forgiveness. Forgiveness for the dark murky side we each have inflicted and received. I in no way mean forgiveness as condoning what happened to anyone or what they did but as a path of self healing. I know this sounds easy and trite, it isn't though, it's the hardest thing I've ever done and I'm still trying.

When we each can be vulnerable with our shames and guilt's within ourselves and touch forgiveness and gratitude, we can find connection and friendship, acceptance and love.


Jack Kornfield - The Ancient Art Of Forgiveness
[video=youtube;yiRP-Q4mMtk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRP-Q4mMtk[/video]

Jack Kornfield - Compassion
[video=youtube;I0V3gNf6Ccc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0V3gNf6Ccc[/VIDEO]

Brené Brown: The Power Of Vulnerability (TED Talk)
[video=youtube;iEPbkvhPuRk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEPbkvhPuRk[/video]

Brené Brown - Listening To Shame (TED Talk)
[video=youtube;L0ifUM1DYKg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ifUM1DYKg[/video]
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
I don't know who you are asking here. If it is me, and my impression, yes - she had been thinking about what and how to do things before the e-mail. As you saw in the one screenshot (I have many) she was giving the impression on FB and in her letter that she was "in good standing" and a scientologist all the way. This impression was a vital tool. First, her name. She had clout, and secondly, that she was speaking as a scientologist in good standing, quoting policy and Hubbard. This was a key point in reaching people.

Clearly, she was not. She befriended me on FB using a pseudonym, and an admitted critic. She brought me in knowing that we'd never know each other and that she'd never know my name.

I don't know how you could know what Cook knew or didn't know. As all Scientologists trained in PR, she was a master at deception, or at least a deceiver. She also had Rathbun and his OSA resources working with her.

I have posted my opinions here, but this transcends opinion; she was working with SPs like me. And then Team Debbie. They seemed to be out of the business-of-scientology. Once in a chat, a member of Team Debbie asked me: Do you think David Miscavige is un-mocking scientology? I said yes, I do. So there was some lingo used, but the people supporting her effort did not seem to be acceptable by sci standards.

This was executed very well, and she did prevail.

The idea that outward-facing Scientologists don't "work with" SPs is not accurate. They specialize in it.

Evidently, part of the fall-out from the Cook letter was that some Scientologists flew the coop. So apparently there were some "casualties" for the Scientologists' underground railroad to pick up. Nice touch that Cook maintained her PR Area Control.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
More importantly in her own words in the mail. When she wrote this she
she could have no idea she would win a future lawsuit and not face
financial destruction.

"I am completely dedicated to the technology of Dianetics and Scientology and the works of LRH. I have seen some of the most stunning and miraculous results in the application of LRH technology and I absolutely know it is worth fighting to keep it pure and unadulterated. My husband and I are in good standing and we are not connected with anyone who is not in good standing. We have steadfastly refused to speak to any media, even though many have contacted us. But I do have some very serious concerns about out-KSW that I see permeating the Scientology religion. I have the utmost respect for the thousands of dedicated Scientologists and Sea Org members. Together, we have come through everything this world could throw at us and have some real impingement on the world around us. I am proud of our accomplishments and I know you are too. However there is no question that this new age of continuous fundraising is not our finest moment." [snip

- See more at: http://www.scientology-cult.com/debbie-cooks-email.html#sthash.BKfFLcY5.dpuf

And yet, an SP like me connected her to media that she liked. I guess she's impinging on a Caribbean beach now.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
And yet, an SP like me connected her to media that she liked. I guess she's impinging on a Caribbean beach now.

Wow I am flabbergasted, Good job, and still good for her choosing to survive

[video=youtube;Nxd05Ab6Nhc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxd05Ab6Nhc[/video]
 

aegerprimo

Summa Cum Laude
Even those born into it? Blood on their hands because most of them never had a more normal point of view to compare their world to?

Yes, but how many born into it leave? I think if one feels he was a victim because he was born into it, that is his viewpoint. How different is it for any person born into a religion they don't agree with? The other day there was an article about a Mormon born into a polygamous sect - she was married off at something like 16 to an 80 year old man. She, having lived in a totally isolated community, hopped the fence and got the hell out of dodge. She didn't have a clue how to live in the outside world. She is now raining hell fire on them. You think you are a victim or you don't.

Personally, and I accept whatever scorn I get for my viewpoint, I think the labeling of people born into scientology as victims is grand standing BS. If they feel they are, fine. It's their life. Whatever. But it is not for me to foist off that label on them.

I was in scientology for around 43 years - except for some foolish financial fuckups, I don't really regret it. I had plenty of friends, and I thought I was doing the right thing. I felt I was a better person for it. Do I like the fact I am still paying a second for donos and shit I bought while on lines? Hell no. But, I forked over the dough. My bad. Nonetheless, I don't consider myself a victim.

Mimsey
Good point He-man. This is a slippery-slope and worth debate. I thought about your point for a while. Then Mimsey, you made your post.

Does a child soldier in the Taliban, who is used as a suicide bomber, have blood on his hands? Yes.

I guess that is why I get angry and cry when I learn the stories of people like Laura DeCrescenzo (or Jenna Miscavige). As a child she was brought into the fold of the Sea Org, and it took her a long long time to realize something was wrong with the world around her, and she had no idea how and if she could survive in the “outside” world.

As others have mentioned in this particular thread, there are never black or white answers, there are only shades of grey.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Mimsey I don't totally agree with you on your post.

That was all I was going to write, but then decided to elaborate. I was raised in the Sea Org. I don't consider myself a victim.

But about these other religions: I don't think Scientology is/was the worse thing in existence. Not by a long shot. But I am curious, besides hopping the wall and starting a life anew, was that it? I mean, to give an example, with your entire family in, would leaving and being shunned/excommunicated be enough to scare some people to stay? Was this person able to be in touch with the family or was she as well shunned? Did she risk everything to start over?

For people like me, like Jenna, like Laura D and others, we had all or most of our family in the church. Leaving was more than just walking away from a religion. It's walking away from everything.

-----

And then there is the aspect, like the movie "The Village" where leaving is very hyped up and turns out to be completely different when you finally get there, and not such a big deal.

------


Whether you think they are victims or not, the stories need to be told. This lends information to people who are considering joining so they can make an informed decision.

I am done rambling... Thanks,
 
Bea - I have disconnected family still on lines and I have family, like my self that are declared. Do I think that sucks? Hell yes. It has caused much of "key in" on my side of the fence. The other side has written us off so they can go up the bridge. Many of our scio friends have cut us off as well. Some have written reports, some have showed up, obviously spying on us. I have been made a why and had been 3-Ped from here to hell and back. Nasty business.

Yes, I have lots of "R" on what it means to walk away from friends and family, and how we all wish they would wake up some day. Sooner would be nicer than later. But I ain't holding my breath.

If they ever show up on my door step they'll be welcome.

Mimsey

3-Ped = third partied = the brunt of libel and slander. It's scio slang.

Also - I take all the 3P as a badge of honor - look at the lengths they have to go through to besmirch my good name.
 
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freethinker

Sponsor
This thread has gotten very long and I'm not caught up but I noted a few things said here as regards Debbie where I felt I wanted to comment.


A couple of times it was mentioned that Debbie is now in the Caribbean sipping Mai Thais on a beach. If this is true that gives me every indication that she took a big payoff and headed for an undeservered retirement.


OK XB, Debbie suffered abuse at the Int base of a degrading nature. I'm sure it was a bad scene and traumatizing. When taken by itself, it makes it seem that Debbie worked diligently for years and then was treated like garbage and discarded. i don't think anyone should be subjected to that kind of abuse.

However, Debbie was in charge of that very abuse IIRC just prior to being a victim of it. She was the oppressor just before being oppressed. She did it because Debbie follows orders and Debbie follows orders to her advantage.

She was a Class IV auditor at Flag before she became Captain of the FSO. You don't get that position in the CO$ without following orders and dishing out abuse and discarding others with wild abandon. It just doesn't happen unless you are uniquely talented but the uniquely talented usually don't get positions of power, they just get used.

She was pampered on her post as Captain and the service that she provided to those who went to Flag was a lie and doesn't produce the promised results so she is a scam artist.

Like I said, Debbie followers orders to her advantage. She wanted revenge so she wrote that email. The question is, did she write that email to fix Scientology and to help those being scammed or was it a calculated move because she had run out of money to let DM know she had the power of influence to severely upset his gravy train?

She played everyone I think. her qiuid pro quo statement was telling but the icing is that she is in the Caribbean sipping alcahol on a beach.

This is my speculation but I think she was running out of money and devised a scheme to extact more.

She had minor contact with Marty but enough so that Marty would want to help. Marty knew about Ray Jeffereys and knew he was the guy to go after the CO$ and Debbie was the means. But Debbie had a plan she would follow Ray's instructions to the letter (she was good at following orders) and get the CO$ into a position to cough up her retirement. She had been in the Hole so she knew what it took to look really bad. Scientologists at that level are trained to lie convincingly and though I'm sure her story of the Hole was true, her satements that she would have killed her baby to escape or some such i beleive was embellishment and her physical condition, while it probably exists, not quite so bad as she depicts. She is sitting on a beach drinking and alcahol is not good for inflammatory conditions.

So while she may have thrown a spear into Scientology , I don't beleive she did it for anyone but Debbie and Wayne and everyone else is on their own.

IMO Debbie is least deserving of a settlement from the CO$ because she had years of pampering and threw many under the bus on her way. Debbie is a calculating Sociopath as well. I don't give her slack
I should probably stay out of this topic because there is some serious heat coming off this discussion.

But I do think it brings up a interesting question, which is, where does the line between victim and perpetrator begin and end when you are in a cult?

As an outsider, if this has any value to anyone, I watched Debbie Cook's testimony on that witness stand, as she spoke about those men climbing through the window while she was on the phone with David Miscavige. He asks, "Are they there?" and when she replies, "Yes", he hangs up and they climb through the window and take her to the Hole. She then described, if I remember correctly, having garbage thrown on her, being beaten to confess, and sexual degradation.

The image of Debbie in that courtroom, shrunken, demeaned, hunched over - a shell of herself - especially when juxtaposed with the perky, cheerful Scientologist with a clipboard welcoming everyone to Flag in those videos, was striking. Then watching Debbie testify that she had been a part of an organization that had treated her like that, that had abused her at her age, the humiliation of being dragged away from your desk after all she had done over the years for some little mistake, was horrifying. Maybe some would disagree, but I feel she paid a price, and her testimony,which is harrowing, will be seen on YouTube by millions and is very important to the anti-Scientology movement no matter what she got paid. She told the truth, and she is one of the few people actually in the Hole who has been able to.

My earlier point is, and I'm serious asking, what does anyone owe the organization as an ex? I have the deepest admiration for the heroes who have left, and I'm talking about Tori, Amy Scobee, Karen, Mark Headley, Jenna Miscavige Hill and others. I know that Tori was part of OSA, as was Nancy Many, and some have more blood on their hands than others. One wonders, for example, if Marty and Mike can ever be forgiven. How do you reconcile the man who actually smiled during the interview about Lisa McPherson's death years ago, with the man who has lost his wife, lost his family and who is photographed sharing a meal with Tony Ortega? is there anything that Mike or Marty can do to undue the damage they caused? To what extent are they victims of Scientology as well?

Perhaps I am ignorant of Debbie's crimes. I see a difference between bringing people in the organization, and the violence that is perpetrated by David Miscavige. But now I'm remembering the letter that Greg Bashaw wrote Debbie before he committed suicide, a letter that was pretty much ignored, and had it been taken seriously, might have saved a man's life. So Debbie has a lot to answer for.

I really don't know the answer to the question. But I feel like most in the cult experience Debbie suffered and she caused suffering. I imagine she has many scars, nightmares and regrets, no matter how many pictures of the beach she shows or how much money she got. Unless she is a sociopath, I think her heart was broken by "the church". The woman I saw testifying about her abuse looked like she'd been crushed on a soul level, and bewildered about what she'd dedicated her life to. And I think it takes years, maybe decades to put yourself back together from that.

Just some thoughts.

I thank everyone for their input. It helps me to try to understand it.

I still don't understand her taking blood money. Main reason is as a Scientologist and Sea Org member who cares about her religion and the parishioners, she still did. I can't get past that.

And to those who only know Debbie by these videos: I trained at Flag for 1 1/2 years and dealt with her a couple of times. I doubt she would remember me. But she too had a vicious side. She has ordered people to scrub toilets all night with a toothbrush. She ordered me to be locked in a tiny windowless room for 12 hours.

I don't hate her, not by any means. But I don't respect her either and to feel I have every right to feel that way. She was a tough bitch get it done Sea Org member just like the rest of us.

Actually, the only one who can really know what Mrs Cook sought or wanted are herself, likely her husband and possibly Mr. Jeffrey. We can of course speculate what her ultimate objective (or objectives) was, but we cannot say for sure what it was.

What we can know is what went down: The cult sued her, made a tactical blunder in court and ended up settling the case. It seems reasonable to assume Cook and her husband walked out of it with a fair amount of money. I think we can safely assume that any desire to stick it to the cult, if it ever was such a thing, would have been hers. I also think we can equally safely assume that the legal trap that turned being sued into a (likely) payout was was Jeffrey's. He's a lawyer, she's not.
 
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