Totally agree.
Absolutely agree, I was making reference specifically to lack of empathy and inappropriate indifference as traits - I didn't mention active traits such as negativity or unfairness - you're absolutely right these are not cited as symptoms of Aspergers.
Well, when I said negativity, I meant things they do that are negative. Which would include lack of empathy. It was a blanket term
Thing is, there are a lot of people in this world who lack empathy in given situations. They don't have Asperger's, most of them. I mean, that's pretty much the only symptom you have and it just seems to me that since Asperger's is complex, has a number of symptoms, that it's just not the best comparison.
But then again, I think comparisons are problematic anyway. (Sort of like virtually every half way decent fantasty novel getting compared to Lord of the Rings when, many times, they aren't at all like LOTR. But it's the frame of reference, it's the benchmark, so it gets used.)
Thanks - that's interesting. No offence meant. Just an observation of the scientologists I have been involved with. I was interested to know if people saw it as part of/a symptom of a mindset - Fully accept it may be specific to the people I know. Also fully accept your remark about 'what kind of bug is that' could be interpreted as lacking in empathy (maybe I'm the one with aspergers... shit.... p'raps it's genetic and it was nothing to do with scientology after all......),
I think there are different sorts and varieties of pronounced lack of empathy and that someone who's behaving that way from being in a cult, from doing the good vs evil self serving thing (as in "Oh, I'm so good and he's so bad") - that these just do not resemble Asperger's.
It's bad, for sure, but thing is, when you walk into an Org or Mission or SO installation and really get to be around the people there, although you will see some crappy things, you won't see a bunch of Rainman types running around. Or "Rainman-lite" as I like to call Asperger's.
I think this here might be more a cross section of what you'd see (if you happened to be well entrenched in the scene, like if you were on staff, volunteering, or did a lot of course time and auditing there)
People laughing
Trying to help each other
People screaming at each other
Fear
Joy
Happiness
Sadness
A lot of very harried busy people
And you would see some real abuse.
I've been in ethics handlings, I've been there, and I had some shit happen to me. But there, what I saw was anger and self righteousness- not so much a quasi autistic mien on the part of any of the people.
but like I said, I only have my personal experiences of scientology for reference and in my experience the lack of empathy and a kind of indifference seemed to increase the more the people I knew were involved. They seemed less there (in every repect). At the time I did feel there were similarities to a person I'd met with (and what I know of) Aspergers. I put it down simply to the idea that their mind was so busy with other stuff - that's how it seemed. Also more recently someone has explained to me in more depth scientology belief systems - and it made sense to me how someone following them could be well intentioned but come across as completely uncaring to people that love them/have certain expectations of them outside the 'church'.
I think that whoever explained the belief systems to you had their own slant on it, and wasn't too accurate.
Of course Scn, philosphy-wise isn't perfect, but just as the philosophy or "belief system", it's not something that encourages lack of empathy. Hubbard wrote a lot about having empathy. Yes, he failed to practice it, but fact remains, the actual ology practiced by many Scn'ists in and out of CofS, isn't like you describe.
And before anyone start in with "oh she thinks the "tech" is fine, it's just the current management that's misapplying it and she doesn't know, etc." that's not my stance at all. (though people keep telling me it is) There are some gaping holes in Scn. Particularly "policy". I think those are mainly due to an idea that the organization is more important than the people. This idea has found its way into a number of policies.
But if you take the core and basic ideas of the Scn philosophy and auditing practices empathy is constantly stressed.
The idea of being that cut off from others as a person, being that poorly socialized, of behaving like a "rainman lite" would appall the Scientologists I know.
The core beliefs of Scn are that one's decisions and thoughts about one's experiences are what shapes the person and determines his or her life and that those things can be changed and that a person should be aware of them, rather than having them be unconscious in any way. So in auditing one attempts to face up to one's fears, past experiences and so on and confront them.
Scn also teaches that one is responsible for anything that happens...this would seem radical to many and I'm not trying to discuss the merits or lack of merits in the idea, but here I'm trying to point out that someone who is that concerned about responsibility in all spheres of life- even if he or she doesn't live up to it- is not going to be someone with that disassociation.
The Grades (auditing steps a ways before the OT levels) address (or attempt to) communication, problems of life, facing up to things one did or failed to do that was immoral or unethical, dealing with past upsets and conflics.
As I said, I'm not writing this post to persuade anyone of the merits or efficacy of Scn, but I'm pointing out that the goals of Scn, the things it tries to address would point someone in the opposite direction than these symptoms of Asperger's:
* Not pick up on social cues and lack inborn social skills, such as being able to read others' body language, start or maintain a conversation, and take turns talking.
* Dislike any changes in routines.
* Appear to lack empathy.
* Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, the person may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent. Have a formal style of speaking .
* Avoid eye contact. Have unusual facial expressions or postures. Be preoccupied with only one or few interests, which he or she may be very knowledgeable about.
* Talk a lot, usually about a favorite subject. One-sided conversations are common. Internal thoughts are often verbalized. Have delayed motor development, etc.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your response.