Were we stupid to join Scientology?

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I think I was ok with it, and I was looking for spiritual stuff. I liked the sci fi bent the past lives bit. But I was a fool to give the IAS my money. That was and is a bad scam. I started in the mid sixties and it was more of a club - and as Hubbard disassociated himself from the church and Miscavage took up the reigns, it seemed to become a cold hearted machine.

So, my answer is both yes and no.

Mimsey

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I think I was ok with it, and I was looking for spiritual stuff. I liked the sci fi bent the past lives bit. But I was a fool to give the IAS my money. That was and is a bad scam. I started in the mid sixties and it was more of a club - and as Hubbard disassociated himself from the church and Miscavage took up the reigns, it seemed to become a cold hearted machine.

So, my answer is both yes and no.

Mimsey

 

[programmer_guy]

Have any of the posters on this thread actually watched the video in the OP of this thread?

 

[The_Fixer]

Ok, you got me.
I went back and watched it.
Still feel like an idiot.
But I do understand it better now. Thanks for posting it and pulling me up on it.

 

[programmer_guy]

Ok, you got me.
I went back and watched it.
Still feel like an idiot.
But I do understand it better now. Thanks for posting it and pulling me up on it.

I don't want you to feel like an idiot.
I still recommend that you watch the movie "Groundhog Day" and say whatever you think about it.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Chris Shelton gives his remarks on this topic (thank you Chris!)

There is the subtopic of "hindsight bias" in this video.
It's not so simple.
For entertainment in general about hindsight I recommend the movie "Groundhog Day" starring Bill Murray (old SNL cast). This hindsight subtopic (amongst other subtopics in this movie) is presented as being very imperfect and sometimes hilarious.

Wow, this guy is so sharp, intuitive and extremely well researched which all shows what a caring individual he really is.
We as ex's should come up with a saint-hood structure to saint people as deserving as he, Emma for sure, Tori, Lea Remeni etc. for the sake of future generations.
Saints of The Exodus.
Young people would then know where to turn for solutions to life's trauma's and whatever traps they may find themselves upon the precipice of through video's as these long after we're all with the petunias.
Now I have a much more comfortable attitude towards our collective intelligence, rather than stupidity for having fallen head first into a cult as we did as a result of this thread.
It was our intellect that was hijacked and made substantial use of when harnessed up into the structure thereby bringing it all to life off of the printed page.
Our stupidity may have only become measurable based upon our donations to the IAS and whatever other psychobabble raucous they raised about that they "needed more money". HA!.
They measured us by "how easy are they to fleece - whales."
I know "and my needle is floating."

 

[RogerB]

And you are one of my favorites here Rog with a remarkable and noble background.

You were Declared eleven times and did A to E ten.

In effect you awarded Kha Khan to LRH and gave the full measure of respect to The Old Man; all ten heads off the totem stick.

This for you Clay P

Eleven times?!??? Thank the Gods I missed ten of them . . . once was enough . . . and A to E???? . . . I just never accepted their lies . . . what I did do was do the entire parade of Boards of Reviews . . . including the final one, done somewhere else in the universe without me present wherein they added new charges and accusations I'd never seen before to declare me guilty of . . .

At the time, in truth, I still thought it possible to correct these idiots, hence the continued appeals "up lines" . . . . but eventually, I realized the pigs in control were truly not honest or sane and had to write the whole affair off. And that was when I did a trip around the US to find out what the hell had been going on and who was doing what.

And that was when I learned of the truths of the shafting of Alan Walter, Mark and Ellen Jones , et al.

Even so, this was before the days of the internet, and so the total truths regarding the increased insanity that took over the cult were not available. . . only individual personal histories of folks one could personally contact was obtainable.

As to LRH . . . I was disappointed that he falsely claimed he earned a PhD when we learned of it. I well remember Major (or did he make it to Colonel?) Peter Wakely . . . Peter was the British Military Attache at the UK embassy in Canberra and did his HPA in Sydney (driving up weekends) . . . . well Peter, being old school military ethical was enraged when he learned of Hubbard's lie was exposed. I remember Peter walking down the aisle during a Scientology Congress 1965-6 in London, bellowing at the top of his lungs at the level of insult and fraud that Hubbard had committed on folks.

My attitude at the time was that, well, I could understand and forgive the fib but still wondered how and why it had come about. It was not until we began to discover the full extent of Hubbard's actual factual lies, his "affirmations" and the facts of his destructive actions to all in sundry that I then was able to totally write him off.

 

[Enthetan]

The development of OTIII and the establishment of the Sea Org in 1968 appear to mark a significant change in The Old Man.

I think the big thing was the Sea Project. When he was at St Hill, it kept him at least somewhat grounded in the real world.

At sea, as The Commodore, being able to exercise absolute and arbitrary power over the crew, I think it let a lot of inner demons out.

 

[George Layton]

I think the big thing was the Sea Project. When he was at St Hill, it kept him at least somewhat grounded in the real world.

At sea, as The Commodore, being able to exercise absolute and arbitrary power over the crew, I think it let a lot of inner demons out.

Don't forget his medicine cabinet.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Don't forget his medicine cabinet.

I've pondered whether Hubbard came up with OT3 on the fly needing a cover for staff having seen him in the 4th stage of a cocaine overdose. The effects are quite startling and I've seen it. But in Hubbard's case I don't know as I wasn't there but it has caused me to wonder. He seemed to be a master at covering for his bizarre behavior.
"The forth and probably most dangerous stage is cocaine psychosis. In this stage, users completely lose touch with reality. They begin to believe the hallucinations and delusions experienced in the cocaine hallucinosis stage. Paranoia is also a common experience and some individuals will act out their delusions. This is dangerous to not only the individuals, but to others as well because often these delusions incite aggressive, homicidal or suicidal behavior."

https://www.cram.com/essay/Cocaine-Intoxication/P3UKAVBYECNY

 

[George Layton]

I've pondered whether Hubbard came up with OT3 on the fly needing a cover for staff having seen him in the 4th stage of cocaine overdose. The effects are quite startling and I've seen it. But in Hubbard's case I don't know as I wasn't there but it has caused me to wonder. He seemed to be a master at covering for his bizarre behavior.
"The forth and probably most dangerous stage is cocaine psychosis. In this stage, users completely lose touch with reality. They begin to believe the hallucinations and delusions experienced in the cocaine hallucinosis stage. Paranoia is also a common experience and some individuals will act out their delusions. This is dangerous to not only the individuals, but to others as well because often these delusions incite aggressive, homicidal or suicidal behavior."

https://www.cram.com/essay/Cocaine-Intoxication/P3UKAVBYECNY

OMG! That's the forth stage of OTIII also!

 

[RogerB]

On the issue of when did Hubbard begin to go odd the rails

Like all things, physical, mental or spiritual, it happened in stages.

When it began precisely, is rather lost to history . . . but for him personally, it was likely when he told his first lie to us and misrepresented his whole scene. From then on, as we can observe with any other liars, they have to keep lying to cover up the first lies and the continuation of the lies get bigger and bigger and more outrageous as time goes on.

The first evidence of Hubbard losing it, as far as I personally experienced it was back in early 1963 when he pulled us all off of the own goals GPM trip to tell us a) all GPMs contacted early on the case are not your own, but implants and, b) he told us he'd been to Heaven and so have you all . . . and off we all went into Helatrobus and all that shit!

There is also a dialogue on ESMB between Alan and DartSmohen regarding what they and Hubbard saw in one of the Spanish ports the ship called into just before the OT3 garbage was released by Hubbard. Dart and Alan reveal that the religious ceremony they witnessed was simply a ringer for the nonsense that Hubbard within days/weeks released as stuff in the OT3 R/D!!!!

Thus, the comments above about drug withdrawal psychosis is valid as he was also very likely suffering such since folks on the ship have reported on his extensive "medicine cabinet" and mercurial behavior at the time, it is likely the imagery of the actual real world "religious parade" triggered delusions he put into the tech released at that time.

One of these days a report on the historical progression of Hubbard's delusion(s) and bullshit he fed the believers should be written up

Rog

 

[DagwoodGum]

One of these days a report on the historical progression of Hubbard's delusion(s) and bullshit he fed the believers should be written up

That might be the pinnacle of everything that's ever been posted on the board!
I hope whoever could contribute historical evidence would be interested.
Maybe it would just have to begin as a thread.
I'd start one but my threads never gather legs...

 

[DagwoodGum]

I think the big thing was the Sea Project. When he was at St Hill, it kept him at least somewhat grounded in the real world.

At sea, as The Commodore, being able to exercise absolute and arbitrary power over the crew, I think it let a lot of inner demons out.

Maybe the constant bobbing and swaying of the deck below his feet coupled with the growing side effects from his "medicine cabinet" caused his brain to bruise, swell and bleed leading him to some of the strangest levels of psychosis that the world had ever seen in a "religious leader".
His churning seas horizon stretched from Helatrobis to Hubbatrobis.

 

[NoIdea]

If an alien visited earth and logically and rationally examined the beliefs of almost any major religion on this planet, s/he'd say we were stupid for joining any of them. In many ways, I have more respect for people who turned their back on the beliefs that were fed to them since birth and adopted a new set of crazy beliefs. At least they are trying to think for themselves.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

"The development of OTIII and the establishment of the Sea Org in 1968 appear to mark a significant change in The Old Man. " Clay

Based upon what you've read I'd have to assume, as I'd hate to be the one to remind you that you were born in 1969.

jee-yy-ziss!

I wish!

I was born in 1949 and I think I've got a chance for my scripturally ordained "three score plus ten" but my heart/lung condition makes it a dicey bet.

But yes, the statement is based on what I've read. There's many things such as Derek Greene. We don't get any stories like that pre Sea Org. Likewise Operation PC Freakout.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well said, as was S. I. Hayakawa in 1951 below:

If you please, Mr. Hayakawa's statement disproves nothing.

DMSMH does in fact contain much semantic "word magic". It also contains theory and practice which made it's bones as science in 1950 because many people using only DMSMH successfully gained positve results indepently.

Results which I too have gained entirely independent of the church with people who were in no way informed of what results might be derived.

Carp as you will, geek and fleer with wild abandon and glittering poetic grace...

Dianetics is a science.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Let me think about that...

The "simple unadorned basics of Dianetics" were Hubbard's lies. These "basics of Dianetics" were not only not proven, but disproven.

The problem you seem to have is that you actually don't realize that many of Hubbard's statements were lies -- so you say "Hubbard's lying is nowhere near as bad as it's made out" based on that false data. You believe his lies were truth.

I've had doubts and reservations from square one Bill. As I have often essayed.

I red-lined passages from the start. When I first read DMSMH alarms went off in my skull when in closing Hubbard envisioned a future world where only clears would have civil rights. Our Constitution endows the citizen with civil rights at birth to be suspended only by due process of law. This I defend with my life.

But the basics of Danetics have not been disproven and I myself have personally verified them doing independent research within the proper bounds of scientific method.

But you are welcome to your own opinion and it's expression and your willingness to engage me in discourse on this board is warmly received.

How ya doin' these days amigo? May you have a cold full refrigerator and a warm full bed!

 

[DagwoodGum]

Have any of the posters on this thread actually watched the video in the OP of this thread?

I backed up and watched it after I read The Fixers endorsement of it.
Nothing like reading an endorsing review to convince you to take the time out and take something in. Like I've said, I'm glad I did.

 

[Bill]

I've had doubts and reservations from square one Bill. As I have often essayed.

I red-lined passages from the start. When I first read DMSMH alarms went off in my skull when in closing Hubbard envisioned a future world where only clears would have civil rights. Our Constitution endows the citizen with civil rights at birth to be suspended only by due process of law. This I defend with my life.

But the basics of Danetics have not been disproven and I myself have personally verified them doing independent research within the proper bounds of scientific method.

But you are welcome to your own opinion and it's expression and your willingness to engage me in discourse on this board is warmly received.

How ya doin' these days amigo? May you have a cold full refrigerator and a warm full bed!

Always good to bash things around with you.

It has been 68 years since Hubbard's DMSMH and absolutely none of his claims have been verified. No one has proven that "engrams", as specifically described by Hubbard, exist. Certainly people have times of "trauma" but Hubbard's "engrams"? Not proven. Ditto "secondaries". Ditto "locks". Ditto "mental image pictures with 52 perceptics". Ditto "erasure". Ditto "reactive mind".

Sure they all sound kind of logical, sort of. But proven? Nope.

These are not supposed to be airy-fairy feely things, these are supposed to be factual, provable, real objects. So, after 68 years, why are none of these things actually proven? I'm sure you've heard of the failure of early Dianeticists trying to prove that "engrams" were real. The scientific method they devised was perfectly valid, according to Hubbard's description, and they failed. That proposed method is STILL valid, but 68 years later, "engrams" are still unproven.

And people like you still believe "it's all true!" Let's analyze:

If Dianetics fundamentals are bogus: People are convinced that they are "going back" and "erasing" their "engrams". They believe this and, as a result, many "feel better" when they have done so. That's very much like Guided Therapeutic Imagery. That's all that happens. No one gains the alleged benefits promised by Hubbard from "Clear" but many "feel better".

If Dianetics fundamentals are true: People get audited, locate and "erase" their "engrams", eventually erasing their "reactive mind" and they attain "Clear" with all the wondrous gains in perfect memory, no more illnesses, higher IQ, lightening calculations, etc., etc. that Hubbard promised.

So what's happening in the real world. To no one's surprise, it's the first scenario. People go through the motions of "erasing" past trauma and "feel better". No one achieves "Clear".

Now, there is nothing wrong with helping people feel better via something like Guided Therapeutic Imagery -- just as long as no one is promising Hubbard's bogus "Clear". You can believe what you want and maybe that's necessary so you can convince your clients that they really are "erasing" "engrams", but 68 years without proof is pretty obvious evidence that Dianetics fundamentals really are bogus.