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What are your real objections to scientology?

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
....
I never before thought of these three things, hiding, camouflage, and misdirection as aspects of raw physical survival. Is this basic material in some subject, or did you come up with this yourself? Very cool either way. :yes:

Thanks Gadfly. I can take credit for applying the concepts to Scientology I guess, but the concepts themselves come from study of evolution, which has always intrigued me. Some mammals puff up to look bigger when threatened (even house cats will raise their hair and arch their backs). Many animals use camouflage -- not just for defense but for attack (take humans with their hunting gear and bird blinds to hide from ducks). Birds will misdirect a predator -- for example an adult bird on a nest may draw a predator away from a nest by feigning an injury and making a lot of noise.

Since these survival strategies seem rather rampant not just in mammals but also in other animals, it would seem probable they show up in humans and therefore in human groups. Perhaps what Darwin said in "Origin ..." fits -- something like "nature read in tooth and claw." We are an interesting species, capable of such beauty and such horror (I'm thinking of a line from the movie "Contact.")

By the way, someone above mentioned they had good experiences giving and receiving auditing. Me too. In my metaphor above, I mentioned there are beautiful things in this enchanted forest. But maybe a better metaphor is the field of flowers in the Wizard of Oz. Gosh it is a beautiful field and there is the Emerald City within reach! But the flowers are made soporific by a bad witch. And the travelers are almost lost forever.

Finally, to play with the metaphor of God-Hubbard and sacrificed sons Christ-Quentin, here is another symbol. Christ of course died on a cross in Christian tradition. Poor Quentin died an apparent suicide while looking at cross-shaped machine flying in the sky near a Las Vegas airport -- airplanes, which are a cross-shaped when viewed from a certain angle. Perhaps these and other coincidences show nothing more than the fertility of the human mind in creating connections and constructing realities.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
''If it's not fun it's not scientology.''


What part of those years I spent in that cult were fun?

Yes there was fun, the time we were allowed to watch a video of the film Brazil in Nordlands, but it was so crowded I couldn't hear the words. The fabulous Italian feast we ate whenever EU won the Birthday Game. That was good, and fun too. Sneaking off to explore Copenhagen, brilliant! None of that was scientology.

The decks, the RPF, the you don't go home till your stats are up, ethics, conditions, severe reality adjustments, baiting and badgering pure scientology!

Fun? hell no!
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
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Ooooo look, I saved 5,000 words :p

:scnsucks: :scnsucks: :scnsucks:
 

KissMyStats

Patron with Honors
I guess for me it boils down to objecting to taking people who truly want to help themselves and others, pure and simple, and taking that virtuous quality and taking advantage of this by using them and tricking them into thinking they are in fact helping themselves and others to spiritual freedom when in actual fact they are enslaving them and turning them into robotic culties, they don't know that they don't know, it's very sad, and I was one of them but luckily they weren't able to grab hold of all of me cuz here I am ! :happydance:
 

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
My poetic nature has me playing further with the metaphor of Wizard of Oz.

You start with a transformation -- the tornado. You find yourself in a strange place -- Munchkinland. Fortunately you find a path -- a "bridge." You follow it. It takes you into deep, dark woods. Lions and tigers and bears (oh my) -- engrams and your bank. You begin to sort out your friends vs. enemies (ethics). Finally you get "clear" of the dark forest and the wicked witch -- the rest of the road (bridge) looks easy and the fabled Emerald City looms near. Alas, you have to get through the Wall of Flowers (the poppy fields). Finally you get to the Emerald City and make it through its strange bureaucracy and regulations (corporate Scn) to get to the Wizard. You tremble in fear when you and your friends stand before the Mighty Oz. Then, you learn the devastating truth. The Wizard is not even a wizard (lower case). He is a mere huckster and his power is only in the minds of those who grant him power.

In the end, you realize that (as the song goes) Oz never did give nothing to the tin man, that he didn't, didn't already have (America). Once we realize that, we might find ourselves singing:
You know you can't hold me forever​
I didn't sign up with you​
I'm not a present for your friends to open​
This boy's too young to be singing the blues​

In other words, good-bye to the yellow brick road.
 

Osiris

Patron with Honors
My main objection to Scientology is

They do not Practice what they teach....

They teach about having a white & pure "soul" to be a good person..... :thumbsup:

but they practice lying, tricking, harassment, verbal & physical abuse, & cover up, (with the focus on taking advantage of peoples money & labor) :bigcry:

It seems to me like, Do as I say, not as I do.....(but they will not admit the wrong they do) :duh:

In Fact, Scientology....reminds me of another saying

"by their deeds you will know them" :eyeroll:

& Scientology's deeds are crap indeed :yes:

(so much so that Scientology want to lie about what they actually do) :omg:
 

cadet

Patron
I object to the child abuse.

The dehumanizing of children is littered throughout the scriptures and the effects of it are littered throughout the history of Scientology.
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Hubabrd's two basic ideas are Dianetics and OT data. They both are bullshit, which is my main objection to Scientology
 

Man de la Mancha

Patron with Honors
All the well known CoS failures summarized in OP, and the fact that, as a means of spiritual growth, it doesn't ever really address the "source" of life itself. It seems obvious to me that we are either eternal beings who are part of this life-spirit, or we are extremely advanced machines and will cease to be conscious of our existence upon the body's death.

If you consider yourself just a body, then religion is probably not of interest to you. Why dwell on a false eternity when there's so much food and sex to be had! Since I've never in this lifetime perceived my awareness outside my body, I must admit that I cannot disprove this theory.

I do believe in eternal life and I do not think one's spirituality can be fully addressed without considering his relationship to the abundant life force obviously present in this universe. In the 80s I probably read every Hubbard book available to the general public. I only recall vague references to an 8th Dynamic which defines our existence as part of the "supreme being". Now that is a wholly valid concept to me, but it is largely ignored in the many LRH books I have read. I do believe that it is helpful, if not necessary, to appeal to that "higher" force in one's spititual quest.

Scientology helped me realize that I am an eternal spirit which laid the foundation for my entire life thereafter. Unfortunately, Scientology doesn't address the source of that spirit, at least not to my knowledge. Many other philosophies address the source, but ignore the individual spirit. I believe it is best to address both.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..

Real objection to Scientology?

The Scientologists.

For anyone having trouble identifying them--they are those fellows over there--you know, the supremely arrogant liars who keep bragging about how they are supernatural, advanced beings that are so much better than mere humans like you. See 'em? Right there, those guys that keep demanding all your money so you become liars just like them. Yeah, that's them--the ones walking over this way with the leering grins that are going to "handle" you.
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the "reactive mind" is a false premise.

I think the addictive quality of scientology, the "hook" on which all else depends, is based on this false premise.

While most of us have some unpleasant memories and convoluted and unpredictable, sometimes unhealthy, coping mechanisms in our mental cache, I think Hubbard's "postulate" of the "reactive mind," and his proposal that this "reactive mind" could be erased and eliminated, was only:

an idea, an untested and unproven idea, but an oh-so-attractive idea!

How wonderful it would be if all your problems -- your fears, your anxieties, your upsets, your shortcomings of whatever stripe, could just be "erased" bit by bit until you were restored to some supposedly "perfect" state, free of the things that plague you and possessed of god-like abilities!

All your sins forgiven; all your pains erased; all your shortcomings magically healed or vanished, poof!

Troubled people of many persuasions would give just about ANYTHING for that magic elixir; and they have. They bought the idea of the problem, and they bought the solution: auditing processes as designed by Hubbard, which require that an organization be set up to "train" people in those processes and to get people to come in and pay (big) money to receive those processes.

And once "convinced" that this is the answer, they find it very, very difficult to let go of that idea/ answer and face the fact that it was a lie.

Hoo boy. It's even worse when a person has to attest to Clear.

When they attest to Clear the literal EP on the Grade Chart that is shown to them is "A being who no longer has his/her own reactive mind".

The freekin' mental gymnastics that this EP alone requires that the mind be twisted into a pretzel, then tied into a the shape of a bow tie, followed by double-hitch/square know combo, then folded back onto itself like a Klien bottle and finished off by pulling at the two ends and making it into a Mobius Strip.

It's a wonder to me how anyone could ever sit down at the Examiner and when shown that EP and then asked "Do you have any doubts or reservations about attesting to the State of Clear?" how they wouldn't get a needle read that slams through the table and floor pulling both examiiner and PC through the hole into the space below.

Crap, I just invalidated everyone here who attested to Clear via that EP.

Oh well.

I apologize, I apologize, I apologize.

Forgiven?

Rd00
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
I mean things like, for example, the "lower conditions," for a narrower example the "Condition of Doubt" -- and its "formula" for "working out" of that condition.

In the world outside scientology, "doubt" is viewed as a healthy state of mind, an attribute to be cultivated as part of a set of critical thinking skills. '

Hubbard defined it as a "lower" condition and built into his administrative policies punishments for anyone who dared to doubt his work.

Twisted. Dangerous to the mental functioning of an individual "believer." Dangerous to a society that would adopt that view on a broad scale.

And the formula forms the perfect basis for a trap to get all the good boys and girls to do everything they can for Uncle Ronnie and his goals of Intergalactic Conquest.

Rd00
 
Hoo boy. It's even worse when a person has to attest to Clear.

When they attest to Clear the literal EP on the Grade Chart that is shown to them is "A being who no longer has his/her own reactive mind".

The freekin' mental gymnastics that this EP alone requires that the mind be twisted into a pretzel, then tied into a the shape of a bow tie, followed by double-hitch/square know combo, then folded back onto itself like a Klien bottle and finished off by pulling at the two ends and making it into a Mobius Strip. ...

That analogy is more apt than I believe you intended. The thing about Klein Bottles & Mobius Strip which you overlook is that mathematically they are incredibly simple objects. They may appear to be of complicated & convoluted form but that is a misperception of their fundamentally simple geometric character. That misperception arises from the fact that the geometric character of these objects is not a common to human experience. However, the normal environment experienced by people is what is complex, not the geometry of these simple geometric figures.

That which you deride about clears is a simplicity of a similar character to that of the concepts you derided as 'convoluted'. The truth is nearer to that the simplicity of the topic is overlooked and falsely adduced to a non-existent complexity. That which is familiar is not necessarily simple, and that which is unusual is not necessarily complex.


Mark A. Baker
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
That analogy is more apt than I believe you intended. The thing about Klein Bottles & Mobius Strip which you overlook is that mathematically they are incredibly simple objects. They may appear to be of complicated & convoluted form but that is a misperception of their fundamentally simple geometric character. That misperception arises from the fact that the geometric character of these objects is not a common to human experience. However, the normal environment experienced by people is what is complex, not the geometry of these simple geometric figures.

That which you deride about clears is a simplicity of a similar character to that of the concepts you derided as 'convoluted'. The truth is nearer to that the simplicity of the topic is overlooked and falsely adduced to a non-existent complexity. That which is familiar is not necessarily simple, and that which is unusual is not necessarily complex.


Mark A. Baker

Mark,

Nice piece of writing there with clear cut mappings and reverse mappings 'tween simplicity and complexity and woof and warp and all that but let's keep something in mind.

Gymnastics is not impossible.

It just requires...

requires...

uh...

it requires gymnastricifications

yeah,

that's the ticket

Carry on mate.

Rd00
 

Fella

Patron
I think the "reactive mind" is a false premise.

I think the addictive quality of scientology, the "hook" on which all else depends, is based on this false premise.

While most of us have some unpleasant memories and convoluted and unpredictable, sometimes unhealthy, coping mechanisms in our mental cache, I think Hubbard's "postulate" of the "reactive mind," and his proposal that this "reactive mind" could be erased and eliminated, was only:

an idea, an untested and unproven idea, but an oh-so-attractive idea!

How wonderful it would be if all your problems -- your fears, your anxieties, your upsets, your shortcomings of whatever stripe, could just be "erased" bit by bit until you were restored to some supposedly "perfect" state, free of the things that plague you and possessed of god-like abilities!

All your sins forgiven; all your pains erased; all your shortcomings magically healed or vanished, poof!

Troubled people of many persuasions would give just about ANYTHING for that magic elixir; and they have. They bought the idea of the problem, and they bought the solution: auditing processes as designed by Hubbard, which require that an organization be set up to "train" people in those processes and to get people to come in and pay (big) money to receive those processes.

And once "convinced" that this is the answer, they find it very, very difficult to let go of that idea/ answer and face the fact that it was a lie.

Great post! :thumbsup:
 

Fella

Patron
The line of mammals evolved over time by surviving. Survival is not the purpose of life, it is the result of life. Scientology has it backwards. To survive, our furry mammal forebears had to learn to lie by (a) hiding -- I'm not here; (b) I'm here but I'm something else -- camouflage; and (c) misdirection -- lying and other tools.

Scientology mastered all three techniques. It tries to hide its upper levels, its inner workings, the reality of its policies, and so forth. And as a back up, when it can't hide everything, it seeks to hide the world from its followers. This is the ultimate magical feat: I can't make the elephant in the room disappear, so I'll make the entire world of people who believe in the elephant disappear. Hence PTS, SPs, disconnection, avoidance of entheta, disparagement of the world as wogs, attempts to dead agent any disagreement, vilification of all other practices, and so on.

In addition to hiding it uses camouflage -- I'm here but I'm something else. Scientology camouflaged itself not just as religion but by assuming the Christian cross -- the symbol of a faith it deeply despises. But the cross is camouflage. It is actually the Aleister Crowley cross from his tarot deck; it is the X'd out cross showing the defeat of Christianity. In X'ing out Christianity, Scientology eliminated its tenets and converted them -- love became affinity, obedience to God became obedience to "Source," seeking a good outcome in an afterlife became OT levels, and so forth. The elimination of the key doctrine of trinity converted to the tri-valent character of Scientology -- it claims to be all of religion, business, and science. It morphs from one to the other. Thus the three "valences" of RBS replace the father (God into Hubbard as the Big Thetan), the son (Christ into Quentin, both sacrificed as a result of the father's actions), and the holy ghost (the spirit into theta).

The third method of survival of semi-sentient Earth mammals is misdirection. In Scientology that becomes outright lies (e.g., officials stating that there is no such thing as disconnection), to misdirection (e.g., warning people to stay away from other practices while actually using those other practices, such as elements of hypnotism remade into reverie, condemnation of electroshock while placing people on the cans for hundreds and thousands of hours of low voltage electric current, and so forth).

Ultimately, as Penny puts it in "Social Control in Scientology" you get:

In an environment (supposedly) of truth, hope, help, and trust, the person thus disoriented can be sold, over time, a systematic inversion of values. Insanity becomes sanity, betrayal becomes integrity, meanness becomes ethics, obedience becomes freedom, slavishness becomes independence, a destructive cult becomes the good of mankind, the group becomes the only truth and the highest purpose.​

That is the forest that various trees grow in. Many of the trees in that forest are good. The people who live in the forest are often wonderful, wonderful people. The forest can appear charming, uplifting, magical. The good in the forest lures us in. The hope draws us deeper into the enchantment. The sacred-smelling scents of the forest flowers lull us. We do not notice the thing we have become. We have failed to see the forest for the trees.

Very interesting theory! :thumbsup:
Thank you for sharing. :yes:
 
I just found & joined this site today after watching some videos on YouTube. I read a letter written by Captain Debbie Cook that she thought was sent to people only inside Scientology, but in fact went out to the public, the media and went viral. She wanted to start the new year by speaking her truth about "outpoints" - things she could see that are very wrong and why inside the walls of Scientology. It got me thinking. I quit what I now consider a 'cult' in the mid '80s. Seems like a lifetime away from today. I consider that my period of my life as one of 'temporary insanity'.:omg: I had known of Scientology because I lived in Los Angeles where there was a lot of media coverage about the feds investigating them. Out of curiosity I went to the Celebrity Center in Hollywood with a friend. We walked right in and walked around. Beautiful old hotel once upon a time. We went upstairs and no one stopped us. At the end of one floor we found a room with a locked guard gate. Behind it was a large paper shredder . The room was knee deep in shredded paper. This guy in a military uniform get up found us and ushered us out of the building. We saw others dressed in this military type of uniform. Sort of creeped us out. We were treated like we were doing something wrong. I objected to the attitude by the people. Very suspicious. What were they hiding and why were they shredding so much paper?

Years later I met a guy. He told me he was a Scientologist. He had been in for a long time. He told me he could not date me unless I became a Scientologist by taking the Com[munications] Course He took me back to the creepy place - the Celebrity Center - to get me signed up for the Com[munications] Course. I was asked all kinds of questions by the 'counsellor'. I thought to myself 'o.k. - I'll try this", but my gut was telling me to run away as fast as I could. I thought I was going to learn something in what was called a 'class'. There was no teacher. I was supposed to learn by working with another guy who was new. I seem to remember it was called 'twinning'. We both thought it a joke and were thankful it was only $35!

At lunch the woman counsellor came in to get me. I was not allowed to go out to eat by myself. Huh? Not allowed? [I really objected to that big time!] Oh no. I had to have lunch with her in the dining room. The drilling began. All perky like a cheerleader she was hyping up the entire thing. That is when she eluded to a $$$ amount to go 'clear', but said she would talk more about that later. She knew I was going to do so well. She could 'see' me going really quickly to 'clear'. I could become an Auditor. OOOO - she just knew I was going to be a great Auditor. Then back to the room with this one other 'student'. Why was I sitting there? Why was I giving up my free will? Why don't I just leave? I do not know 'why'.

By the end of the day I supposedly learned something. I do not know if I did, but I knew this place really bugged me. I OBJECTED to all of it. I found it intrusive & obnoxious. But, the counsellor said I was just being 'reactive' due to old tapes. They would 'flatten my buttons'. Then she started to talk money . . lots of it . . to go clear & become an Auditor. I remember how expensive it was. I really objected to that. I cannot remember the exact amount. About $2400. I decided I would never go back, but they were not going to let me go that easy.

Then came the phone calls. Lots of them to my home, to my job, to all members of my family, my roommate, even to my friends. How the hell did they get all of those phone number? I have no idea. I really objected to the harrassment. My family were calling me angry asking me who these people were asking them to help me pay for some kind of classes. I was getting very p.o.'d! :angry: It was always about the money. To stop the phone calls I decided to finish the Communications Course. I went in at 8 or 9 a.m. & did not get out of there until after midnight. I went in fed up & exasperated. I came out like a zombie exhausted. I cannot remember what went on that morning. After lunch with the same woman 'counselor' who kept on me about the classes and the possibility of my qualifying for a scholarship! She constantly pumped me up just like a cheer leader. After an hours lunch I immediately was back into a room with this one man who asked me questions and whatever else we did. Then I was taken down into the basement. I objected to that, but felt helpless to get away. It was me and two guys. Then they started the process. They were going to 'flatten my buttons' - those reactive words or subject that got me upset. It was constant. They would not stop. It went on for hours. I had to hold onto the two cans of the infamous E-Meter. They watched the needle waiting for it to settle in the middle and stay there. When they decided my buttons were flattened they stopped. I was so emotionally beaten down & physically exhausted.

They took me back upstairs where this room of people were clapping, hugging me and congratulating me telling me how fantastic it was and how great I did. They were so blown out like cheerleaders. I was numb. I liked the praise & sense of community, but it was still ringing false to me. These people did not even know me. I was too tired to fight it. I was taken into the office of the woman who had been directing me from the beginning. She was so excited! I did so well and they all felt that I was going to do great things. She knew that I was going to 'go up the bridge' to clear quickly and then continue through the 8 OT [Operating Thetan] levels to the highest spiritual level. She explained that an OT is supposed to be able to control Matter, Energy, Space & Time. I was so physically drained everything sounded great. She left the room and came back in 5 minutes later so excited that I qualified for a full scholarship! YEAH! Whatever it was I was going to agree to it. Any contract with whatever financial responsibility they determined to be sufficient to complete everything that was put in front of me I was going to sign! And I did sign. I wanted to go home. I wanted something to drink. I wanted to sleep. They kept me so busy I never sat down, but finally did to sign my life away. And as I look back at how that all went down - I REALLY object to the way all of that was handled. I would have signed anything to get out of there.

The following day ewas the worst offence. I allowed this woman counsellor to go to my bank with me to cash in my IRA so she could have the money for my classes. She pressured me so intensely to do this I just folded and did it. That was about $1200 or more that was getting 13.75% interest! I took a huge hit in taxes for doing that idiotic stunt. I was on auto pilot. I was not thinking clearly. This woman actually had her hand on mine when I signed. I kid you not. I really object to that! And it did not stop there! Then they came on even stronger about the money. I was told to 'max out my credit cards' which was completely out ethics! All of it was out ethics! I did not do that, but it was the fact that they asked me to do such a thing. I was seeing an Auditor by this time weekly for months at about $75 per session! I was actually talked into purchasing a top of the line E-Meter! Then I was taken to this guy who supposedly hypnotized me to do regression therapy. I was there for at least two hours on a Saturday I seem to remember. That was a lot more money.

My boyfriend & all of his Scientology friends were beginning to doubt what Scientology really was all about. They were very concerned & disgusted with the huge push for money that they saw me going through. We'd all talk about it. It was out ethics. It was not what L. Ron Hubbard had wanted, but at this time no one had seen nor heard from him in months. There were strong feelings that a small group of people were taking over control. An obvious hunger for greed and power were the driving forces. People were wondering if L. Ron Hubbard was even alive as there was always a cloak of mystery around where he was and what he was doing. Another of his bopoks came out and people doubted that he even wrote it.

After months of Auditing I felt like I was waking up. I could see very clearly what had been done to me. The brain washing techniques used on me became very obvious. I became very angry. I talked with all of our friends about it and made a decision to demand all of my money be refunded. I began to see a deprogrammer who helped me get my mind back. I did not back down. When I entered the Celebrity Center this time there was no cheering crowd. I could feel all eyes on me as I walked through the room in silence. I was no longer the wunderkind of Scientology. I was now a 'suppressive' person. I was called a 'squirrel'. I did not care. I got every cent of my money back and returned their E-Meter. I did not get any money back from the Auditor, but that was o.k. and she had helped me wake up and see what was really going on. Of course she could have nothing to do with me anymore after that. I walked tall when I entered the Celebrity Center for the very last time to get my check. I could not get out of there fast enough. My boyfriend and all of his friends also walked away from Scientology, too. They all objected as did I the manner in which I was treated. They objected to the greed they now felt and the politics that were changing what L.Ron Hubbard had created decades before. We all objected to the way Dianetics and Scientology had changed. As I look back I realize that I was never, ever told during all of this that Scientology believed that we all were descendents of aliens from another planet. If anyone had told me that from the very beginning I would have never gotten involved. I object to the misinformation. I object to the lies, the brain washing, the mind control, the manipulation, the control, the greed and I really object to the secrets. So many secrets. The caches of arms in the basement. The militaristic overtones. The creepiness of the shredding of massive amounts of documents. I object to all of it. I am glad to be out of it. I have my mind back and I can think for myself. I am stronger now and it was of my own doing and not in what Scientology supposedly taught me.
 
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