What are your views on psychiatry?

[Teanntás]

Sorry, I don't buy "never". You'll have to come up with a list of all civil shooters and then the evidence that they were all taking "mind-altering drugs". It just might be true, but I tend to doubt such absolute statements without any evidence at all.

Sounds like CCHR propaganda.

Great minds think alike

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Not a thought but, a fact; There has never been a mass civil shooter that was NOT a user of heavy mind altering drugs. If you can apply logic, you come to an inescapable conclusion. If you are illogical, you ask silly questions.

Not true. And even for the cases where the shooters were on medications your argument is still a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

There are millions of kids taking those same drugs, but there has only been around 200 mass shootings in the last 15 years.

So if the cause was the medication then there would be millions of incidents.

The medications may be one element is some cases, but the entirety of factors have not yet been discovered.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Idle Morgue]

Wow - I had a cog on this thread! Do I owe anything and how much? Sorry - that would be what PAVLOV calls: "a conditioned response? Now, who PUT it there - OH, Scientology put it there! Okay - now that I have that cleared up...I will continue...

I apologize to anyone on meds if I came across "black and white". There is so much conditioning in scientology that "the PSYCHS" are out to get us - they are behind everything BAD - all they want is sex and money....I could puke!

After reading this thread - I think I don't know enough about the help meds can provide and I am not qualified to respond. Hubbard attacked the Pyschs because he wanted his flock to not have any type of help available - they were competition. So were other religions...hence his "implant of religion" crap he writes about on the confidential levels!!

One has to do what works. I can see that meds have helped people - so if that is the case...I am not going to comment about meds.

I am an expert on Scientology. I have a master's degree in it - because I did do it, I observed others doing in and I see their trickery, deceit, bribery and extortion in this "religion". I am qualified to comment on scientology.

I think scientology is much more dangerous than any psych could ever be. Scientology has their version of Electric Shock therapy - it is called the Bridge, the L's, training, donating, IAS, Super Power, David Miscavige, L Ron Hubbard and his evil TEK - the entire game is intended to change your mind about WHO you are, WHAT you are and WHAT is the only acceptable way to BE - a dedicated Scientologist donating all of their money and time in exchange for betrayal. Scientology is designed to trap and enslave! It has side effects and they don't warn you about them....they LIE!

Have you ever seen a Scientologist that was FREE?

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

.. Question in the title prompts one of my pet hobbyhorses...

Uhm.. Scientologists like to think of themselves as entrepid pioneers who unselfishly investigate and explore the human mind.. L.Ron Hubbard told them that! - They see themselves as 'The Authorities of the Human Mind'. They are the only ones who has the only 'technology' that works.. L.Ron Hubbard told them that! - Consequently, all other 'technology' and studies of the Human Mind is flawed at best and fearfully dangerous at worst.. L.Ron Hubbard told them that too! (You might start to suspect that L.Ron Hubbard told the scientologists EVERYTHING.. He did.. They don't think themselves at all. It's against scientology doctrine.. I ain't joking! Hubbard DID indeed advice that 'thinkingness' is a mental illness that needs to be cured!)

Whatever.. Psychiatry is the the archenemy of scientology! - L.Ron Hubbard told the sceientologists so! - The 'Evil Psychs'! - The mere mention of them can make a scientologist feel the tendrils of venoumous evil spanning continents and reaching far down history of mankind, and farther back still! - Evil Psychs are reincarnated from way back when.. They were the evil dinosaurs, velosyraptors, who stole an ate the eggs from the thoroughly good and funny dinosaurs! (The last was a PR line, intended to make the Evil Psychs seen more thoroughly evil. It's pure fabrication of course.. But some scientologists will now 'recall' it in session and consider it completely true! - That's how this stuff works, but scientologists are supposed to 'recall' what L.Ron Hubbard tells them, not what I tell them. But I don't give a shit..)

L.Ron Hubbard wants to eradicate, annihilate and destroy Psychiatry alltogether! - So does the scientologists, because L.Ron Hubbard told them so.. (Yeah, you guessed it didn't you?) - So if Scientology had it the way they would like it, we would have 'Scientology' instead of Psychiatry.. And Psychology, and all variants thereof..

Scientology: The Authorities on The Human Mind! (Scary shit eh? - Gonna be expensive like the pointy end of a jetfighter, I can tell you that!)

So.. What is Psychiatry really?

Psychiatry, and psychology, are the 'established' fields of study of the Human mind! - Thousands of people in all countries of the world study it.. The Human mind.. Psychiatry, and psychology, are NOT a 'religion' or 'cult', or a 'mass movement' like scientologists seem to think. Psychiatry and psychology are a wast number of studies and theories and experiments and practices. Psychology is 'all talk', while Psychiatry is a 'title' you need to be a full medical doctor to have.

So, all these many people have studied psychiatry and psychology for many years.

Whereas Scientologists have done precious little! Scientology is best described as a bunch of happy amateurs, sho strangely think they have a 'technology' of the Human Mind that can replace ALL other theory, practice, experiments, ideas, knowledge.. They think so.. Yeah, because Hubbard told them.. They think so, even as anyone who cares to read Hubbard's book, Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health, will see that Dianetics is a bunch of rather redicoulous and childish ideas about mental 'mechanisms'.

Burp!

 

[AnonSunshine]

There are many mental situations in which the individual has a low amount of neurotransmitters; therefore, medication can help them to balance the shortage of some chemical imbalance.
I am totally for the medications, when it can help control symptoms.

 

[Lurker5]

Wow - I had a cog on this thread! Do I owe anything and how much? Sorry - that would be what PAVLOV calls: "a conditioned response? Now, who PUT it there - OH, Scientology put it there! Okay - now that I have that cleared up...I will continue...

I apologize to anyone on meds if I came across "black and white". There is so much conditioning in scientology that "the PSYCHS" are out to get us - they are behind everything BAD - all they want is sex and money....I could puke!

After reading this thread - I think I don't know enough about the help meds can provide and I am not qualified to respond. Hubbard attacked the Pyschs because he wanted his flock to not have any type of help available - they were competition. So were other religions...hence his "implant of religion" crap he writes about on the confidential levels!!

One has to do what works. I can see that meds have helped people - so if that is the case...I am not going to comment about meds.

I am an expert on Scientology. I have a master's degree in it - because I did do it, I observed others doing in and I see their trickery, deceit, bribery and extortion in this "religion". I am qualified to comment on scientology.

I think scientology is much more dangerous than any psych could ever be. Scientology has their version of Electric Shock therapy - it is called the Bridge, the L's, training, donating, IAS, Super Power, David Miscavige, L Ron Hubbard and his evil TEK - the entire game is intended to change your mind about WHO you are, WHAT you are and WHAT is the only acceptable way to BE - a dedicated Scientologist donating all of their money and time in exchange for betrayal. Scientology is designed to trap and enslave! It has side effects and they don't warn you about them....they LIE!

Have you ever seen a Scientologist that was FREE?

This is why I love your posts, Idle. And if you had not written that first post, and others given their more positive helpful experiences, and you been open and listening to them, would you have had this cog?

I hope you just keep writing what is there for you - at the time. I always appreciate what you have to say. Thank you.

 

[TrevAnon]

I had major depression a bit over a decade ago. It was mostly due to a situation I was going through at the time, and I completely shut down.

My doctor referred me to a psychologist. My doctor also mentioned antidepressants. I said no.

I went to the psychologist. She said that she'd work with me either way, but that through her own observation, people who did use antidepressants made better progress. I decided that since everyone else in my life was trying to help, I should at least give it a go. So I said okay.

I was referred to a psychiatrist. He worked in conjunction with the psychologist - she and I worked through cognitive behavioural therapy while I took the drugs. I saw the psychiatrist about every 6 weeks to evaluate my dosage. I saw the psychologist a couple of times a week. I was told that there was a forseeable end date for the drugs, that I wouldn't be on them forever - but that they recommended I stay on them for at least a year as that would lessen the likelihood of rebound.

The drugs gave a more immediate effect than the therapy. I could get up in the morning, I could do stuff. The side effects weren't much fun, but I was functioning far better than I had been beforehand. I honestly believe that the drugs brought me up to a place where I could function, to a place where I could get better.

I was only on them for about 8 months. I've never needed them again, nor further therapy. I never felt pressured. But I did recognise that they were an equaliser - that is, they brought me to a mid-point. They brought me up if I was down, but they brought me down if I was up. And that's ultimately why I went off them earlier than was recommended. The therapy had given me the tools to deal with the real problems, and with similar problems in the future.

Different things work for different people - different drugs, different therapies. I was lucky enough to get a combination that worked for me. I do think that psych drugs are often misprescribed - often by general practitioners who don't have the specialised knowledge that a psychiatrist has trained in, and often not in combination with therapy which I think is important to treat the root cause. But psychiatry is not an exact science even at the best of times.

I'm not, and never have been scientologist. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion or experience. But I don't know that I'd still be around without psychiatry and I'm grateful for the fact that I am.

Thanks a lot. This post clearly outlines how meds and talk therapy work together.

 

[smartone]

What are your views on psychiatric medications? The reason I ask is because every time there's a mass shooting, the scn'ers immediately run to the psych link of the shooter. "He was on such-and-such drug and that's why he did it."

However, I see it as a double edged sword. If the guy needed to be on meds, and wasn't (like Jeremy Perkins) it still happens. And, if he was on meds and still murdered, maybe they weren't the right ones..or right dose?

I know the 2 kids in Columbine - one was on a low dose of something, and the other wasn't on anything at all. And Ted Bundy, one of the most famous mass-murders was a drunk, but not on meds.

The scientologist will one-for-one say it all boils down to psych meds, which I can see in SOME cases...especially the kids as there is a higher risk of suicide/murder because of their underdevelopment at the younger ages. (at least that's my understanding)

What are your thoughts??

It's helped me more than scientology processes did.

 

[uniquemand]

Psychiatric care has it's place in the world. IMO, it should INCLUDE talk therapy. Scientology could and should be considered a talk therapy (where it has a talk and listen component), and part of what the Psychiatrist uses, though medication should and could be a part of his arsenal, as well.

At present, there ARE psychiatrists who do talk therapy, but they are precious few by comparison to those that act as middle-men for pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Claire Swazey]

What are your views on psychiatric medications? The reason I ask is because every time there's a mass shooting, the scn'ers immediately run to the psych link of the shooter. "He was on such-and-such drug and that's why he did it."

However, I see it as a double edged sword. If the guy needed to be on meds, and wasn't (like Jeremy Perkins) it still happens. And, if he was on meds and still murdered, maybe they weren't the right ones..or right dose?

I know the 2 kids in Columbine - one was on a low dose of something, and the other wasn't on anything at all. And Ted Bundy, one of the most famous mass-murders was a drunk, but not on meds.

The scientologist will one-for-one say it all boils down to psych meds, which I can see in SOME cases...especially the kids as there is a higher risk of suicide/murder because of their underdevelopment at the younger ages. (at least that's my understanding)

What are your thoughts??

People have killed and suicided because they weren't on medications but should have been. I do believe this. However, some psychiatric drugs do have side effects that include homicidal urges.

I sometimes wonder- when I hear about another "prozac killing" (as my husband sometimes calls them) -- if the guy really was indeed on meds, did he kill because of that side effect or because maybe he got on the meds too late or they weren't the right type or dosage or he was already violent and going to do something?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... At present, there ARE psychiatrists who do talk therapy, but they are precious few by comparison to those that act as middle-men for pharmaceutical companies.

Primarily as a result of economic pressures from the Insurance industry and the "Best Capitalist Medical System in the World".


Mark A. Baker

 

[degraded being]

Psychiatric care has it's place in the world. IMO, it should INCLUDE talk therapy. Scientology could and should be considered a talk therapy (where it has a talk and listen component), and part of what the Psychiatrist uses, though medication should and could be a part of his arsenal, as well.

At present, there ARE psychiatrists who do talk therapy, but they are precious few by comparison to those that act as middle-men for pharmaceutical companies.

They often liaise with psycholgists, AFAIK, letting the psychologist do the talk stuff.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

People have killed and suicided because they weren't on medications but should have been. I do believe this. However, some psychiatric drugs do have side effects that include homicidal urges. ...

As a bipolar person who has been treated for severe depression I'll give you a perspective I have which most people never consider.

Extended depression is completely debilitating. Often a person reaches a point where absolutely anything requires too much effort, suicide included. I see one reason that administering anti-depressants can result in a suicide even though the patient is seen to be "recovering" as a result of treatment is precisely because they are working. They can raise a person's ability to function sufficiently that, if they had been seriously contemplating suicide before, they now find themselves capable of carrying out such actions where they had not felt capable of doing so before. This is particularly an attractive option where a person has a reasonable expectation of continuing in a cycle of successive depressions of varying severity throughout the rest of one's life.

The fault then would lie not in their purported causing of "suicidal thoughts" so much as in raising the ability of the person to function sufficiently to act out on an impulse.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Jay Pea]

As a bipolar person who has been treated for severe depression I'll give you a perspective I have which most people never consider.

Extended depression is completely debilitating. Often a person reaches a point where absolutely anything requires too much effort, suicide included. I see one reason that administering anti-depressants can result in a suicide even though the patient is seen to be "recovering" as a result of treatment is precisely because they are working. They can raise a person's ability to function sufficiently that, if they had been seriously contemplating suicide before, they now find themselves capable of carrying out such actions where they had not felt capable of doing so before. This is particularly an attractive option where a person has a reasonable expectation of continuing in a cycle of successive depressions of varying severity throughout the rest of one's life.

The fault then would lie not in their purported causing of "suicidal thoughts" so much as in raising the ability of the person to function sufficiently to act out on an impulse.


Mark A. Baker

Do you think the scientologist recruiters at the time found your personal issues as "ruins" and moved forward with capturing you as new "raw meat?"

 

[Lori]

Primarily as a result of economic pressures from the Insurance industry and the "Best Capitalist Medical System in the World".


Mark A. Baker

On this line I do agree. I initially just sought a Psychologist to do talk therapy with. Because I do not have insurance and "have too many assets"for medicaid NC would let me see a psychologist on a sliding fee scale ONLY if I also saw a Psychiatrist AND on meds!!

As I said earlier I was very very fortunate to get one that got past labeling me bipolar or paranoid and really listened and recognized my condition as PTSD or more specifically Complex PTSD. She put me on low dose Paxil (which did allow me to open up) and it went from there.

I now still see my therapist twice a week and Psychiatrist once a week. I dutifully get my prescription filled and flush them now.

Damn the government for pushing psychiatrists for poor people to talk to psychologists but.... there ARE ways to manipulate the system.

 

[Red Valiant]

Is not ~economic pressures~ what's moved the whole $cn agenda for 5+ decades now? Produce, produce, produce, expand, etc. I have a few Dr. friends and none report $$$$$$ as an academic focus in Med School. Mark B., ever seen the movie The Bridge?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Is not ~economic pressures~ what's moved the whole $cn agenda for 5+ decades now? Produce, produce, produce, expand, etc. I have a few Dr. friends and none report $$$$$$ as an academic focus in Med School. Mark B., ever seen the movie The Bridge?

I think he was making the point that the preference in treatment for medication in lieu of treatment is one of economic incentive (profits) for the insurance company as well as the economic incentive behind the lobbying of the drug companies.

If this is what he meant I agree wholeheartily.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Do you think the scientologist recruiters at the time found your personal issues as "ruins" and moved forward with capturing you as new "raw meat?"

No. It certainly had nothing direct to do with my interest or any "ruin" they pushed at the time. In fact "ruin" had little directly to do with my initial involvement, although the regges certainly did strive hard to push on those buttons.

Although I have been bipolar since adolescence I was not diagnosed until my 40s. It has to some degree and in some ways been increasingly progressive over the years. Yet, despite some recurrent truly horrendous depression in my earlier years I remained largely "functional" by "normal" standards. Although a depressive bout would greatly reduce my "normal" level of ability and capabilities.

[FWIW, that caused me a great deal of difficulty during my younger years. Switching between a high degree of mental function and a much lower level for months on end for no apparent reason can have severe "side effects" in itself. Although aging has helped to "balance perspective" of that. :wry:]

The only real influence my disorder had was from repeatedly dealing with various phenomena of depression from early on in life inspired an interest in human behavior, mental states, and the role that thoughts and ideas play in shaping one's perspectives. That certainly was a motivation for my early interest in Buddhist & Taoist thought and the work of R. D. Laing. And accordingly, although the book DMSMH is very flawed, I did find the suggestions of some of the techniques in DMSMH as plausible mental mechanisms which might account for such things.

Accordingly, once I read the book prior to my actual involvement with the church, I was quite willing to give auditing a try. That was completely on my own volition. Of course they had the "money back guarantee" and that made it an easy decision with which to go. Either it worked to my satisfaction, or if it didn't then nothing lost except a bit of time. I wasn't too concerned with hubbard's claims as my principle interest lay in how I saw the ideas described as possibly relating to the ideas and goals of Buddhist thought.

As it was auditing worked quite well for me. Over the years I've had many personal benefits from auditing. Not least of all, I strongly feel that as a result of the differences I've experienced as a result of auditing have been a significant factor in helping me to deal with personally the various phenomena and effects associated with the disorder from that time since.

The BP is a real physical disorder. It continues to progress and afflict, but in addition to meds taken to treat the physical aspects of the condition there are other tools which can be used to address the effects of mental phenomena which result. None of it's perfect, but I've found many scientology tools to be useful to me in dealing with the problem. Wouldn't wish it on anyone though.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I think he was making the point that the preference in treatment for medication in lieu of treatment is one of economic incentive (profits) for the insurance company as well as the economic incentive behind the lobbying of the drug companies.

If this is what he meant I agree wholeheartily.

The Anabaptist Jacques

You left out minimizing the costs involved on time spent with a doctor. Less talk, more meds also means the doctor can see and bill more patients. Increasing revenues while minimizing costs and all while promoting the sales of ancillary products often at costs infated by ridiculous patent laws.

The Health Care Industry is primarily about Industry and only secondarily about health care. And yes, med students don't always understand that of which they have actually signed up to be a part. Surprising, eh?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Techless]

As a bipolar person who has been treated for severe depression I'll give you a perspective I have which most people never consider.

Extended depression is completely debilitating. Often a person reaches a point where absolutely anything requires too much effort, suicide included. I see one reason that administering anti-depressants can result in a suicide even though the patient is seen to be "recovering" as a result of treatment is precisely because they are working. They can raise a person's ability to function sufficiently that, if they had been seriously contemplating suicide before, they now find themselves capable of carrying out such actions where they had not felt capable of doing so before. This is particularly an attractive option where a person has a reasonable expectation of continuing in a cycle of successive depressions of varying severity throughout the rest of one's life.

The fault then would lie not in their purported causing of "suicidal thoughts" so much as in raising the ability of the person to function sufficiently to act out on an impulse.


Mark A. Baker

Very scary - I've been there...