What Changed Your Mind About LRH?

fisherman

Patron with Honors
May I ask,

What information has most commonly 'lifted the veil' and caused 'exes' to change their opinion about LRH?

Mystic wrote:

And, I would like to add, there is too much point of the finger at the 'Church of Scientology' and not enough at the seething dark entity called "L. Ron Hubbard".

This got me wondering what specific facts, issues, or truths, have led 'exes' to see "the dark seething entity" and abandon LRH?

Is it different for everyone? Or is there a common theme among 'exes' who have rejected LRH's views and tech? Was it one 'keystone' fact about Hubbard or some accumulation of false information?

I'm curious to learn what 'lifted the veil'!

fisherman
 

byte301

Crusader
Mayo's story about elron making the older guy push a peanut around the deck while the whole crew had to stand there and watch including his family who were crying. His nose was bleeding. elron laughed about it.

That's when I realized what a piece of scum he really was.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
For me, it was a series of things.

First of all, while I took a lot of what LRH said at face value, at times I knew he was exaggerating. There's story tellers in my family, and I have a fondness for them, so I don't necessarily consider this a problem. There's that teeny part of me that still regrets not being able to do the Briefing Course simply because I'd like to hear the wall of tapes.

Here's some specifics:

1) Learning that LRH was cruel to people directly.
2) Learning that he claimed other people's tech as his own.
3) Learning that he really didn't want anything other than Scn.
4) Learning that he wanted to be considered a deity, at least in some stories about him in later years.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

May I ask,What information has most commonly 'lifted the veil' and caused 'exes' to change their opinion about LRH? This got me wondering what specific facts, issues, or truths, have led 'exes' to see "the dark seething entity" and abandon LRH? Is it different for everyone? Or is there a common theme among 'exes' who have rejected LRH's views and tech? Was it one 'keystone' fact about Hubbard or some accumulation of false information?I'm curious to learn what 'lifted the veil'!

Twas a toll bridge that began to fissure under the tonnage of those journeying to total freedom. The span further buckled as weight capacities were ignored in favor of rushing all of humanity across.

But, not one moved to the other side as pilgrims herded into ever-tightening masses of discontent. And with each grim story another pound of weighted misery to buckle the swaying structure that lead to nowhere.

It was then, in the terrible din of jostling and screams--there in the chaos of buckling support and crashing dreams--I suddenly remembered something. Unable to move in the crush, my eyes desperately searched until I spotted a lone figure, unmoving.

It was the saintly bridge builder, perched comfortably above, oblivious to the toll of human suffering below; but, smiling as he instead counted the toll of cash receipts.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mayo's story about elron making the older guy push a peanut around the deck while the whole crew had to stand there and watch including his family who were crying. His nose was bleeding. elron laughed about it.

Yes, that was one of the cruelty ones that really did it for me, but worse was ordering Nancy Many on the RPF while pregnant.
 

byte301

Crusader
For me, it was a series of things.

First of all, while I took a lot of what LRH said at face value, at times I knew he was exaggerating. There's story tellers in my family, and I have a fondness for them, so I don't necessarily consider this a problem. There's that teeny part of me that still regrets not being able to do the Briefing Course simply because I'd like to hear the wall of tapes.

Here's some specifics:

1) Learning that LRH was cruel to people directly.
2) Learning that he claimed other people's tech as his own.
3) Learning that he really didn't want anything other than Scn.
4) Learning that he wanted to be considered a deity, at least in some stories about him in later years.

Don't mean to derail this thread but you can download the Briefing Tapes. Their all online now.

@Fisherman, your welcome.:)
 

byte301

Crusader
Twas a toll bridge that began to fissure under the tonnage of those journeying to total freedom. The span further buckled as weight capacities were ignored in favor of rushing all of humanity across.

But, not one moved to the other side as pilgrims herded into ever-tightening masses of discontent. And with each grim story another pound of weighted misery to buckle the swaying structure that lead to nowhere.

It was then, in the terrible din of jostling and screams--there in the chaos of buckling support and crashing dreams--I suddenly remembered something. Unable to move in the crush, my eyes desperately searched until I spotted a lone figure, unmoving.

It was the saintly bridge builder, perched comfortably above, oblivious to the toll of human suffering below; but, smiling as he instead counted the toll of cash receipts.

That gave me the chills.
 

Lee_from_phx

Patron with Honors
"Bare Faced Messiah" did the job for me.

Same here along with the other books such as A Piece of Blue Sky.

I never was one to revere Hubbard like some kind of a God. Scientology was always a subject of study for me, not a religion. The whole "That's what Ron says" mantra REALLY made me sick to my stomach when someone would recite it, as if Hubbard knew everything about everything. One person in particular would pull that out of her arse on a regular basis and she was probably the most loony cultie there. I feel sorry for her in a way. She's devoted her entire being to a malignant lie created to enslave people and steal all their money. What a waste.

I got kicked off staff because I wouldn't drink the kool aide and decided to take a trip to the library, where I found Bare Faced Messiah. The stuff I read in that book did a lot to wake me up to the fact that the cult was a cult. Up until that point I'd assumed that the cult was basically good but had gone off the rails. My low-level attempts to shake things up and get the org moving in what I considered to be the right direction is what got me kicked off staff. Bare Faced Messiah revealed to me that there was no fixing Scientology because it was rotten to the core.

In the years since, as I've learned more and more about Hubbard, it has become crystal clear just what a sociopathic megalomaniac he was. For a while I'd assumed that the cult had gone bad as Hubbard had lost control of it, but the truth is that Hubbard created the cult to be exactly what it is. He was an evil bastard who should have been drowned as an infant.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
The books "A Piece of Blue Sky", "Messiah or Madman" and "A Bare-faced Messiah" all put the pieces together for me.

I could forgive his exagerations, while I was in, because for a Brit, it is not uncommon to think PR exageration is an American trait, but in particular it was discovering that he lied to us about personally not recieving any money from us.

Once I read the stories of the suitcases of cash being transported to him and his fraudulant fiddle over Author Services, I knew that if he could outright lie to us about the money, he could have been lying to us about any of the rest of his scientology stuff, including the tech claims.

The scientology house of cards collapsed for me once I learned of the specific and blatant lie about money! I remember going through a phase of thinking that I wouldn't mind him making money out of scientology, but I recognised his specific lie about this as being a significant aspect of his character.

Since then I learned more about his character from the above books and his Admissions and recognised him as simply a con man.:omg:
 

Out-Ethics

Patron Meritorious
May I ask,

What information has most commonly 'lifted the veil' and caused 'exes' to change their opinion about LRH?

Mystic wrote:



This got me wondering what specific facts, issues, or truths, have led 'exes' to see "the dark seething entity" and abandon LRH?

Is it different for everyone? Or is there a common theme among 'exes' who have rejected LRH's views and tech? Was it one 'keystone' fact about Hubbard or some accumulation of false information?

I'm curious to learn what 'lifted the veil'!

fisherman

Fisherman - for me it was a combination of factors that culminated. I had several failed purposes being in Scientology. First, it was not succeeding while being on staff. I got beaten down so much at times that I finally gave it up and said screw it. I observed many times that I was very willing and saw others also very willing to help but only to be yelled at, invalidated and punished. When this happens repeatedly one doesn't have the desire to continue on. I'm sure you can read story after story here at ESMB with the same running theme. Strike one!!!

Next was not getting enough actual changes from my auditing. I didn't go OT but I sure as hell expected life changing results. When the Co$ is charging thousands of dollars for auditing I don't give a damn what level it is on. It had better be life changing. Not to say I didn't get results but I felt I could have sat on a couch and had a psychologist listen to me and I might have gotten the same result. There is strike two!!!

After my last auditing which I was told would really handle my life and change things around so much that I would get up the bridge I realized that there is something very wrong with Scientology. I have seen so many different outpoints, situations or things that should be but are not that I finally started thinking maybe the tech doesn't work. At this point I began to research the internet and found many interesting sites not just talking about Scientology but Hubbard himself.

I had already knew that there were anti-Scientology sites years ago but I was of the belief that it was just a few upset people getting their story told by suppressives who want to destroy the Church. I'm thinking a handful of people not thousands. If I was really thinking correctly I would have asked myself who are the suppressives. To say there are SPs is too general in identifying. As I was researching I was seeing one site after another were anti-Scientology. Here was the test of faith. I knew that there were too many outpoints that I had observed and there was way too much information on the internet. From there I read about LRH and what I found troubled and upset me. My stable datums in life were being blown away. And it wasn't just one obscured web site but many were confirming the same data.

You read he was married three times. First wife wrote to the 2nd wife saying he was nuts and dangerous. He met his 2nd wife while teaming up with Jack Parsons who both practiced Black Magic. He get married to his 2nd wife while still legally married to his first wife. He cons Parsons out of thousands of dollars for a business venture in Florida. You read from his first son Nibs that Hubbard was involved in orgies. While married to his 2nd wife he had a sexual relations with his PR gal and even proposed to her while married to his 2nd wife. He has a daughter with his 2nd wife and takes her away because he is afraid that his wife Sara will try and commit him to an institution. He gives the daughter back after Sara writes a letter saying what a great guy her husband is. They then divorce and he never sees his daughter again. He marries for the 3rd time and somehow made this one last. His oldest son leaves him and ends up writing a book against his father. His other son Quentin dies from either suicide or murder. Okay so he wasn't the greatest husband or father (fathered 7 children). Then there is his war record which talks about his great heroism but then you find out he never saw any action and was recommended by his superior that he was unfit to run a ship. Then he went blind at the end of the war or oops there another lie and really what he did was convince the Navy he was disable mentally so he could collect disability pension. I could go on and on but his whole history is like this.

Hubbard to Scientologists who still think he is the greatest hit ever for all of mankind has him on the God pedestal but after you read that you then start looking at all the different outpoints you have observed, the way DM runs the church, OSA handling of its own public, the Ideal Orgs, the cost of the bridge etc you reached the conclusion this really ain't OZ and Dorothy you be still in Kansas. Strike three - you're out!!!!

The bottom line is Hubbard had out-integrity, overts and withholds. He lied, committed out-ethics acts and I'm beginning to believe that he quite possibly had no remorse in any of this. The clear example of this is his issuing of KSW. At that point Hubbard became a God because Gods are never wrong and to err is human. Hubbard after that could never say he was wrong or give credit to anybody else and to do otherwise would be a suppressive overt act against Hubbard and the Church. The expectation is total perfection. I don't know of anybody that is perfect and quite frankly I don't think it is possible. But that is okay because we as people have the power to admit wrong and even a greater power to forgive. This is something Hubbard or DM or other top execs in the SO do not practice. If Hubbard had practiced this and taught that to others then Scientology would be a happy decent place to be in even with all the imperfections observed. Does this answer your question?
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
I didn't change my mind. I simply came to the point of deciding that my friendships with all my friends and associates in Sci were not worth me keeping my mouth shut.

LRH and his constant babbling on about how 'great' his tech-garbage was... always... and I mean every time out... made me sick with disgust. It is all too apparent, to the critical eye, that LRH was an arrogant asshole whose house of cards depended on making one awe struck with HIM.

But no, I've heard from some of the best bullshitters in the Biz... and LconH was and IS a very easy mark to read. I was more curious about HOW he was getting so many to succumb. The auditing process rang out loud and clear as the HOOK and IMPLANTER. I learned, in quick fashion, to out wit it and thus saved myself from too many years of wasted time, money and deceitful self discovery.

My greatest win in Sci was the detection of masterful seduction as well as how to avoid becoming a slave to other men or belief systems.

Thank GOD I didn't have to reach ot8 to figure that out.

IMO, anybody who needs or needed to reach the upper bridge in order to figure out how they can be constantly entrapped... just didn't have the courage or ability to bust loose and break the chains by sheer will power.
 

altruistichedonist

Patron with Honors
I read "Bare Faced Messiah" followed by "Messiah or Madman".
That and the fact that Hubbard never acknowledged Bentham, Mills, or "Utilitarianism", for his formation of his Dynamics of Life book.
It became obvious to me he was a pure plagiarist.
So I left.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
This got me wondering what specific facts, issues, or truths, have led 'exes' to see "the dark seething entity" and abandon LRH?

For me it was realising that even if he isn´t in charge anymore, he wrote the PL´s on "ethics" "justice" and the pts/sp tech.

Once I realised that, I lost all the respect I had for LRH.

Blame current management all we like, doesn´t change the source of the evil.

Yep, anyone promoting disconnection is in my opinion evil, doesn´t even deserve raisin cake.
 

Good twin

Floater
When I left the cult I wanted to sort out a missing piece of Scientology history. I had been off lines during the "take over" in the early eighties and I felt like everyone knew what happened but weren't talking.

The first line of internet research I took was to sort out what happened at the famous mission holder's conference and who and what was the Finance police mission all about. I knew that my former mission holders were declared, but not how many others were. I knew that my Org's execs were busted off post by the finance police but not how many others were. I realized that the most successful and productive Scientology execs were kicked out.

Of course I assumed that it must have been an evil sp infiltration of long duration (not really). I found ESMB and got most valuable information from Dart and Alan. I found lots of the lost powerhouses and listened to what they had to say. I spent some hours with Alan telling me about the Hubbard he knew. I talked with others who knew him. I cried over Sharone's story when I realized it fit with everything I had heard from people I knew.

I found Scientology survivors. Many of them had benefitted from the tech, but had first hand accounts of Hubbard's many flaws...... and cruelties...and insanities. It became impossible to not believe.
 
For me it was his intellectual dishonesty. It wasn't what I heard or read from others, it was the words which came out of his own mouth and his own writings that turned me off.

When I got into Scientology I was uneducated. After being in for over twenty years I decided to get an eucation because I thought I didn't know enough to understand Hubbard. So I started studying philosophy.

When I realized that he mislead people as to what the philosophers actually said, and also palagerized, others I realized it was no longer a matter of him just being a good-natured storytelling self-promoter.

I realized that he must have mislead people for a reason. Later on when I heard about the cruelty I wasn't surprised.

And after studying philosophy I was turned off by Scientoogy completely.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

ILived1984!

Patron with Honors
I started having doubts about LRH and Scientology while listening to all of the Congressess. I think that's when critcal thinking skills (not the daft Scn definiton of critical thinking but the regular definition of applied reason and logic) went to a whole other level. I was listening to what LRH said on the congress lectures and was actively comparing what he said against the Sea Org and Scientology as it is practiced these days. I then saw more contradictions in the OEC Vols (I was an admin person my entire time) even if one were to factor in the changes in policy through time. While seeing further departures from what is supposed to be, or the ideal scene, I realized that Scn had become a complete sham and left the SO.

I continued to hold on to LRH for a while becuase thinking that he was okay justified my 10 years of involvement and I was still thinking like a Scn.

After a year I had slowly come to recognize that Scn is the real problem. Scn was written by LRH.

At the very begining of this year I re-enrolled in college and part of the first course I toook went over plagiarism and the severity of it. That stuck to me and any one doing universtiy level school work knows how seriously plagiarism is taken.

I then started taking business courses including business and communications and I saw where "Admin Tech" and the org board came from, the method of Scn management and why it's so inefficient. It's a form of business administration popular in the early part of the 1900s that worked well for manufacturing. I then saw how the communication formula is nearly indentical to an antiquated one devleoped by scientists to show communication between radios and TVs to people, which has been replaced by a far more sophisticated and relevant communiction formula. I was in awe at how all these amazing "technologies" were published before Dianetics or Scientology existed and how LRH did not cite anyone's work and claimed for himself. I had finally become fully dissullusioned of the greatness of Ron.

Seriously, I saw how working conditions in Scn pretty much always sucked. I've heard people talk about the early days but the subject itself promotes a vice like grip on it's people. I was asked earlier this year by a Scn if if "had any wins". I've heard that many times and it works as a trigger to justify Scn. I said I did but I've had wins in many things I've done in life. I remember thinking that I had wins in 1st grade too but I didn't dedicate my life to my 1st grade teacher or elementary school.

Guess what, the more I study the more I see how Ron ripped information from others before him and gave no credit. I also re-read KSW and saw how insidious that policy is. Scientology organizations work like inefficient dinosaurs and it's no wonder since it's policies are all based on outdated principles that end with the founder's writings.

Scientology sucks because Scientology sucks.
 

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes, that was one of the cruelty ones that really did it for me, but worse was ordering Nancy Many on the RPF while pregnant.
I don't recall the order in which I learnt things, but the small child in the chain locker horrified me. That's sadistic.
 
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