What is a right and wrong? Story and Question.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

TAJ, I've followed what you've written from this post onwards and I still don't get how you arrive at "Mike Laws is OSAOSAOSA"

Yes, I'm Ozzie and Mike and I have worked on stuff together and he's been a great help but that's just my take on it. I don't feel it's my place to say what he's done and he's too modest to put his hand up and take the credit rightfully due to him.

But he's helped out a lot of people who've left the cult and were having trouble finding their feet. If he talks like a scilon, maybe it's 'cause he was brought up as one. When we chat, he's just another mate to me and I don't notice the scilonese because well - I still fall into that too. I was there 30 years and have only been out less than three.

I know this won't neccessarily change any view you have but I would like you to consider what other sources you have that contributed to your view of Mike. I see incomplete logic when I look at your reasons, and I have considered them carefully. I usually find your logic compelling but can't see it in this instance.

That's cool. Now what you have said here is one counter to my argument.

Now people have more testimony to help them make a decision.

But if I had just backchannelled my suspicions to others, what you just said would not have come to light.

That's my first point.

My second point is that if I met a person on a street for the first time, how could I formulate any ideas about the person?

Should I wait and check the guys background?

Should I know stuff about his past?

No, I don;t do those things. That's not how I make friends. I start with the conversation I had with the person.

That's all I've got to go on.

Now in Mike Laws' case, the impression I have tells me something isn't kosher, and what I think isn't kosher is that he might be an OSA person in the field.

Then when I hear that he's done good things for exes I think "Well so did I when I was acting as a dissafected Scientologist," So that doesn't hold as much weight for me as it does for others.

But it is totally fine for that fact to be a shibboleth for others to show he is OK.

But, I still have my reservations.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[I told you I was trouble]

None of this really matters ...

OSA are just people that happen to think we are SP's.

They have no effect whatsoever on what we do (unless we allow it) and I couldn't give a toss who is or who isn't OSA.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

In the 1960s, the US had a draft for boys 18 and over to go into the military if they didn't have a compelling reason not to. I had a lawyer, Joel Kriner, (who I think is still "in") who advised me to go to Fresno for my draft physical. More deferments were given in the boonies for the reasons I was stating that made me exempt from fighting a stupid war. Fresno is in the middle of nowhere. At the physical there were hundreds of guys there. Five of us spotted each other in the huge group. I had driven from San Jose, another from Santa Barbara, another from Lake Tahoe, etc. We could each see in each other's eyes that we weren't from Fresno. We easily spotted and recognized one another for not being locals.

Dig it. Thanks.

When the draft board took one look at me--they burned my draft card.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[MrNobody]

You sure didn'tget the point of anything I wrote.

That may well be so, I never said I was perfect.

You know, there may be others who think he was OSA. But they didn't jump all over me when I said he might not be OSA.

I'm not the one who is up tight about OSA.

I'm not screaming that the sky is falling because someone from OSA is on the board.

I have seen people acting like the sky is falling because I said he may be OSA and even if he isn't he still may be poison.

Guess what? I might even agree with your "poison" theory.

The lesson I'm learning from this, and it is being driven home quite clearly and forcebly, is that I would have been better off just to use the backchannels than say what I think out loud to everybody.

Oh yeah, the dreaded backchannels... a very useful tool, aren't they? Makes people wonder what is being said about them behind their back, and all that jazz. This just proves what I think and AFAIK already said: It's the fear, the unknown, that makes OSA scary.

I might be a minority here, but I would prefer you keep this stuff out in the open.

Then I would just be the loveable old TAJ that we've all grown to love.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Don't know about "old", not sure about "loveable", surely not "always agreeable with", but I like many of your posts out here.

, MrN

 

[scooter]

That's cool. Now what you have said here is one counter to my argument.

Now people have more testimony to help them make a decision.

But if I had just backchannelled my suspicions to others, what you just said would not have come to light.

That's my first point.

My second point is that if I met a person on a street for the first time, how could I formulate any ideas about the person?

Should I wait and check the guys background?

Should I know stuff about his past?

No, I don;t do those things. That's not how I make friends. I start with the conversation I had with the person.

That's all I've got to go on.

Now in Mike Laws' case, the impression I have tells me something isn't kosher, and what I think isn't kosher is that he might be an OSA person in the field.

Then when I hear that he's done good things for exes I think "Well so did I when I was acting as a dissafected Scientologist," So that doesn't hold as much weight for me as it does for others.

But it is totally fine for that fact to be a shibboleth for others to show he is OK.

But, I still have my reservations.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Fair enough, and thanks for the measured reply.

I am much more a fan of open communication on the board than back-channels stuff myself. And that's why I value your input.

I have a different perspective on Mike than you and it may well be clouded by my personal contact. And I can see now why you have made your choice contrary to the one I've made.

Guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Thing is TAJ that you have no proof of a serious accusation against someone you admit you don't know apart from an intuition and reading between the lines.

What good is there in slandering this person who has helped a lot of people quietly behind the scenes in situations you know nothing about?

Why do you think this is a good thing?

It is a good thing because I voiced my suspicions on this board so people could give their opinions and then others can make the determination for themselves whether I am right or not.

Slander is making false statements. I gave my opinion, in the open.

That's dialogue, not slander.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Okay everybody...

So let's sing along and follow the bouncing shibboleth......

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Infinite]

You should review my posting history. I've never been anything but up front, direct, open and honest about whatever is on my mind the whole time I have been posting on this board or on A.R.S. before that.

I neither need nor want your smug, condescending at-a-boys. But then you already knew that from our previous encounters in your previous incarnations here on ESMB, now didn't you ?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Fair enough, and thanks for the measured reply.

I am much more a fan of open communication on the board than back-channels stuff myself. And that's why I value your input.

I have a different perspective on Mike than you and it may well be clouded by my personal contact. And I can see now why you have made your choice contrary to the one I've made.

Guess we have to agree to disagree.

Cool. Except your perspective on Mike Laws isn't clouded by your personal contact; it is probably enhanced by your personal contact.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Free to shine]

None of this really matters ...

OSA are just people that happen to think we are SP's.

They have no effect whatsoever on what we do (unless we allow it) and I couldn't give a toss who is or who isn't OSA.

I agree about the effect (or not!) of OSA, however it just rubs me the wrong way, in fact makes me both angry and sad to see an 'opinion' of a board member take the form of a character assasination based soley on that opinion.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I agree about the effect (or not!) of OSA, however it just rubs me the wrong way, in fact makes me both angry and sad to see an 'opinion' of a board member take the form of a character assasination based soley on that opinion.

You are the one giving what I said the force of a character assasination.

I started a dialogue. You started a fight.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Infinite]

Up until about a week or two before the Inquiry (when we got included in proceedings), Mike Laws and I were in regular contact. After that we weren't. He didn't respond when I dropped in FB chat, and he didn't respond to a an email I sent him. From memory I think we've had one very brief FB chat since the Inquiry. It was light and social, and not in 'real time' coz he wasn't responding when I was around and vice versa. Mike kinda dropped off the face of the earth for me, and I found that odd at the time, as I did that when he ignored me when I posted to him on ESMB (while he seemed to be responding to everyone else..........rightly or wrongly I put it down to Feral being in his ear).

WTF? Laws was around helping out in the months leading up to the Senate Inquiry!! Who introduced him into the Aussie scene? Given Rathbun's "assistance" in that situation, what was Laws doing? Just how long has Laws been involved in the Aussie scene and is he helping out with the scene in the US as well? Maybe this isn't a personal squabble or OSAOSAOSA. Perhaps we seeing the shark-fin tips of a wider plan to secure the financial assets of the cult as it topples.

Oh, I dunno any more. Its all too much for this simple soul. I'm off to line my mum's basement with tinfoil.

 

[Pooks]

LOL! Awesome gif!

 

[Nicole]

I got it. A good spy is not seen.

That was only a part of her message.

Let me explain: Once you no longer focus on the scarecrow(s) OSA set up, you'll be able to recognize OSA. And you would no longer care.

 

[Sindy]

Uh, um, uh......I"m gonna go hang out with Hoaxie on the "stupid" thread.

 

[Pooks]

OK-- I've had enough of this debate. It's no longer interesting.

I've been accused of being OSA on many occasions, and the facts are that I was in fact OSA for many years so the accusation was somewhat understandable but always came from someone with their tin foil hat on too tight.

For me the best solution was just to laugh at the accuser for being a dumbass.

Mike, grow some hairs and get back in here on this thread and deal with it.

 

[Free to shine]

You are the one giving what I said the force of a character assasination.

I started a dialogue. You started a fight.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I haven't started a fight, I have questioned your opinion.

Your words carry their own force.

 

[scooter]

WTF? Laws was around helping out in the months leading up to the Senate Inquiry!! Who introduced him into the Aussie scene? Given Rathbun's "assistance" in that situation, what was Laws doing? Just how long has Laws been involved in the Aussie scene and is he helping out with the scene in the US as well? Maybe this isn't a personal squabble or OSAOSAOSA. Perhaps we seeing the shark-fin tips of a wider plan to secure the financial assets of the cult as it topples.

Oh, I dunno any more. Its all too much for this simple soul. I'm off to line my mum's basement with tinfoil.

Mike re-introduced himself to me ages ago as we knew each other from his days in CLO ANZO when I was downstairs in Sydney org. We'd had a bit to do with each other then as his post brought him down to the academy to survey students.

He also knew Panda quite well from their mutual experiences in the cult and those two had kept in touch up until a few years back if my recall is correct. Mike has never made any secret of his friendship for Marty and it's never been a problem to me - Mike doesn't neccessarily share Rathbun's worldview any more than I may share Panda's or Feral's or Emma's. Or TAJ's or Alanzo's for that matter.

Mike is my friend. I don't expect to see eye-to-eye with him on everything.

I've worked on projects with Mike and we've kept each other informed of what's been happening in our respective circles - tentatively at first as we didn't fully trust each other. I now trust Mike fully.

He's not done anything to give me pause that he may be anything other than he says - just anther ex trying to recover from the toxic cult and trying to help others do the same.

I may well be completely misled.

But that's up to you to judge.

 

[Nicole]

Mike re-introduced himself to me ages ago as we knew each other from his days in CLO ANZO when I was downstairs in Sydney org. We'd had a bit to do with each other then as his post brought him down to the academy to survey students.

He also knew Panda quite well from their mutual experiences in the cult and those two had kept in touch up until a few years back if my recall is correct. Mike has never made any secret of his friendship for Marty and it's never been a problem to me - Mike doesn't neccessarily share Rathbun's worldview any more than I may share Panda's or Feral's or Emma's. Or TAJ's or Alanzo's for that matter.

Mike is my friend. I don't expect to see eye-to-eye with him on everything.

I've worked on projects with Mike and we've kept each other informed of what's been happening in our respective circles - tentatively at first as we didn't fully trust each other. I now trust Mike fully.

He's not done anything to give me pause that he may be anything other than he says - just anther ex trying to recover from the toxic cult and trying to help others do the same.

I may well be completely misled.

But that's up to you to judge.

Thanks for the information...

 

[AlphOhm]

This is Emma's board you arrogant prick. She doesn't have to "get over it".

pot.kettle.black