What is "charisma"?

[tiptoethrutheminefield]

Most people agree that L.Ron Hubbard had some sort of charisma. Usually cult leaders are described as charismatic. Many celebrities are said to have charisma as well. What is it?

I think charisma is to sociopathic individuals what the ability to change color is to chameleons or the fly-attracting rotten smell is to the Venus Flytrap.
I think some people (subconsciously or consciously) believe they are too weak to compete in life in a normal way, so they develop this quality, this combination of words and nonverbal cues that we call "charisma." They use this aura to control normal people by signaling a combination of power and neediness that triggers certain responses from others, especially from vulnerable others.

When I think of celebrities who are said to have charisma, I think of people whose behavior is less than prosocial. And upon examination they strike me as phoney and full of tricks. For example, Tom Cruise is said to have a ton of charisma, but since I've developed a healthy skepticism about him, I notice his behavior in movies is kind of like my dog when she wants my sandwich--a lot of posturing, eye-action, intensity, combination of "I'm so cute" and "I want it NOW!"

I think charm is different from charisma. An actor like Gabriel Byrne has charm. He is quiet, not obviously drawing anyone in to him, but over the course of a movie one is interested in what he does and says. Or maybe I'm just in lust with him!

Does anyone else think charisma is just manipulation?

 

[He-man]

Yes and no, I think there are people who exist that fits exactly what you wrote.

But I think those are in minority amongst all those I think of as charismatic persons.

 

[Smilla]

My experience of 'charismatic' people is that they are often quite needy underneath the gloss.

 

[Lurker5]

Quite possibly

Quite possibly it is linked to narcissistic personality disorder . . .

Did I spell that right?

 

[Mystic]

Let's get real in regards this Hubbard thing and "charisma". An individual fascinated with another individual will find they have "charisma", and then there are those that have "charisma" whether it is being artificially placed there by the viewer or not.

The latter Hubbard did not have. I have personally been in this entity's presence many times. He/it had no personal "charisma". In fact, he had no positive "presence" at all, more like a...well, a blackhole. Being a complete idiot in these matters at the time I of course completely misinterpreted it. Then, over the years, just let it drop.

A couple of months ago Carmel asked in chat if anyone had ever seen Hubbard care and it got me to looking. I saw Hubbard care but one time, only one. During a rain he/it brought an umbrella over to FCDC for Mary Sue.

But I didn't stop looking, and after a couple of weeks I got it!! No, it did NOT have "charisma" or "presence". What he/it had was a LACK of charisma/presence. An absence of.

That was when I realized this entity was but a tulpa, an artificial entity, an apparition. Soulless.

 

[Winston Smith]

My experience of 'charismatic' people is that they are often quite needy underneath the gloss.

Smilla I love your insight...absolutely correct. If they do not get admiration they fall apart. One just need look at the personal lives of Hollywood people...complete disasters.

 

[Winston Smith]

Let's get real in regards this Hubbard thing and "charisma". An individual fascinated with another individual will find they have "charisma", and then there are those that have "charisma" whether it is being artificially placed there by the viewer or not.

The latter Hubbard did not have. I have personally been in this entity's presence many times. He/it had no personal "charisma". In fact, he had no positive "presence" at all, more like a...well, a blackhole. Being a complete idiot in these matters at the time I of course completely misinterpreted it. Then, over the years, just let it drop.

A couple of months ago Carmel asked in chat if anyone had ever seen Hubbard care and it got me to looking. I saw Hubbard care but one time, only one. During a rain he/it brought an umbrella over to FCDC for Mary Sue.

But I didn't stop looking, and after a couple of weeks I got it!! No, it did NOT have "charisma" or "presence". What he/it had was a LACK of charisma/presence. An absence of.

That was when I realized this entity was but a tulpa, an artificial entity, an apparition. Soulless.

Mystic again hits a homerun. All you old time types here from the 50s who knew LRH, the above is why I value Mystic's viewpoint.

 

[Lohan2008]

chr

Chr = Ability to (easily) convince other's of your views.

 

[Smurf]

Scotty Charisma....

High school social studies teacher by day; hunky wrestler by night.

http://www.scottycharisma.com/

 

[MrNobody]

Chr = Ability to (easily) convince other's of your views.

I'm not able to hit the nail right on its head re this topic, but I'd say this is a nice short explanation.

<snip>
Let's get real in regards this Hubbard thing and "charisma". An individual fascinated with another individual will find they have "charisma", and then there are those that have "charisma" whether it is being artificially placed there by the viewer or not.

The latter Hubbard did not have. I have personally been in this entity's presence many times. He/it had no personal "charisma". In fact, he had no positive "presence" at all, more like a...well, a blackhole. Being a complete idiot in these matters at the time I of course completely misinterpreted it. Then, over the years, just let it drop.

<snip>

Well, I'm sure he had a lot of "presence", not necessarily a positive one though. This blackhole personality you mentioned might have been exactly what made him attractive to his listeners and probably was (one of) the source(s) of the "mystery" he liked to create around him. I think it's this "mystery", this almost-but-not-quite-yet understanding him that made him attractive for his listeners and followers.

In his later years, it probably was just the previously installed group-think in his followers that kept the scam going.

 

[Kutta]

I like Mystic's post very much. For the first time I think I understand what he has been saying all along about the "tulpa", the "apparition". Understanding that helps a lot in understanding how he/it could create slavery and call it a religion.

 

[Knox Harrington]

Most people agree that L.Ron Hubbard had some sort of charisma. Usually cult leaders are described as charismatic. Many celebrities are said to have charisma as well. What is it?

I think charisma is to sociopathic individuals what the ability to change color is to chameleons or the fly-attracting rotten smell is to the Venus Flytrap.
I think some people (subconsciously or consciously) believe they are too weak to compete in life in a normal way, so they develop this quality, this combination of words and nonverbal cues that we call "charisma."

Does anyone else think charisma is just manipulation?

I don't see why a sociopath would necessarily be charismatic, or why someone with charisma would necessarily be sociopathic. Of course, if you want to round up a shit ton of followers for your cause, cult, religion, whatever, you almost have to have some charisma. I think of charisma as having qualities that draw people to someone, just someone that really likable or interesting or fun to watch. It certainly doesn't have to be used in a manipulative way, but Im sure it often is. It doesnt have to be anything too dramatic, the most common example is probably salesmen.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

I liken it to a doubled edged sword that can be used for either creative or destructive purpose, manipulation for gain or a rallying point for growth and change.
Off the top of my head folks like Desmond TuTu, Mother Theresa, Rhandi, Hawkins, Mandella and MLK, all had/have forms of charisma in a positive sense. On the flip side 90% of politicians will use what they have for their own agendas.
Like nearly any human quality it is subject to the will of the user in my opinion.

 

[anonomog]

Gift of the gab
Power of persuasion
The ability to project an aura of : trustworthiness, honesty, integrity, sexuality etc when that aura does not naturally exist in the person.
Salesmanship

I'm not sure its charisma. (Or not what my own feeling of what charisma is. Can there be a consensus of understanding of the word, if the word is more feeling than anything else?)

Perhaps the people who are attributing charisma to Hubbard, so desperately want his teachings to be true, that they project a charm onto him that he never possessed, perhaps if he has all this charm and charisma and trustworthiness that just radiates straight off his photograph, then my god then the bridge must be true. (...and my retirement nest egg hasn't been wasted on a con)

To people who don't want/need what he is selling he is simply an arrogant, lying prick.

Kind of like falling in love with the kindest, brightest, sexiest person in the universe. The whole body goes into mushy meltdown at the thought of being in the same room as him.

Twenty years later he is the lazy sod who leaves his socks on the floor and irritates at the though of being in the same room as him.

Charisma or projection?

Sorry, waffling. Interesting question tiptoethroughtheminefield and Gabriel Byrne....hell yes...

 

[tiptoethrutheminefield]

Salesmanship

Gift of the gab
Power of persuasion
The ability to project an aura of : trustworthiness, honesty, integrity, sexuality etc when that aura does not naturally exist in the person.
Salesmanship

I'm not sure its charisma. (Or not what my own feeling of what charisma is. Can there be a consensus of understanding of the word, if the word is more feeling than anything else?)

Perhaps the people who are attributing charisma to Hubbard, so desperately want his teachings to be true, that they project a charm onto him that he never possessed, perhaps if he has all this charm and charisma and trustworthiness that just radiates straight off his photograph, then my god then the bridge must be true. (...and my retirement nest egg hasn't been wasted on a con)

To people who don't want/need what he is selling he is simply an arrogant, lying prick.

Kind of like falling in love with the kindest, brightest, sexiest person in the universe. The whole body goes into mushy meltdown at the thought of being in the same room as him.

Twenty years later he is the lazy sod who leaves his socks on the floor and irritates at the though of being in the same room as him.

Charisma or projection?

Sorry, waffling. Interesting question tiptoethroughtheminefield and Gabriel Byrne....hell yes...

Love your signature, btw.

Salesmanship.....I knew a salesman...ahem, oh alright it was my ex-....who entirely fits the description you give. I would feel like even more of an idiot except a lot of people fell for his act. The ones who didn't must have thought the rest of us were....idiots. I am fascinated by how many times I've fallen for charisma--luckily my wonderful husband is the Gabriel Byrne type.

 

[Francois Tremblay]

I think you have to differentiate between charisma and manipulation.

Sociopaths (like L. Ron Hubbard) are practiced at manipulating people, but if you're not on the spot (i.e. if you're watching their manipulation on a television screen instead of being the one in the process of being manipulated), you realize very clearly that they're phonies. They don't really talk very well, but they talk a mile a minute, they make gestures, draw you in basically with subconscious cues. It's a performance. People who are at leisure of actually listening to what they're saying, and looking at their mannerisms, see through them easily.

 

[Zinjifar]

Charisma = Overwhelming Self Confidence, warranted or not.

Zinj

 

[Student of Trinity]

It might be helpful to split off and distinguish something that can easily get lumped in with charisma: leadership. There are lots of different styles of leadership, and I suppose that any good leader may induce many of the effects of charisma — but not always right away. The thing that most induces people to follow good leaders is the recognition that following these people tends to bring good results. It may take a while for a leader to demonstrate that, but once they do, they're really in business.

But a leader has to be leading somewhere. A charismatic charmer might have no goal beyond getting followers, and otherwise be content if the following is simply a splendid parade, to anywhere or nowhere, as long as they themselves are at the head of the band. A real leader is going somewhere definite, and bringing others with them.

And a leader is not the same as a salesman. The distinction I like best between them is the one I heard from my father. Salespeople sell you your dream; leaders sell you their dream.

 

[Human Again]

Great Topic.

As others have said I believe that Charisma just is and its what you do with it that determines if effect in the world.

I have studied this subject for many reasons including "Why did I get lured in?" and also to be better able to teach presenting, which I have done on and off over the years. I have observed Charisma in sales, in education, in MLM (yuk), in sports teams, in families, in Scn, in franchises and in business. Not everyone who is charismatic is beautiful although this helps, not all of them are smart, but most of them are saying something that the followers want desperately to believe.

For the last few years I have settled on this:

"People follow people who are certain."

If someone wants something and another states with 100% certainty and conviction and congruence "I can provide that, I have the way, YOU can have it" then some people will follow them.

Even if the leader is honest and congruent and truly believes he can lead them to what they desire problems arise because the solution or strategy that worked for the leader(charismatic person) may not indeed work for the follower.

If the leader does not truly give a sh*t if the followers arrive at the goals or not, the leader can be said to be manipulating and using the gift of charisma for their own gain at the loss of the followers.

If there is room in the leader-follower relationship for the follower to really understand the principles of what the leader has done, rather than the rules or the steps and the follower has the room to adapt these to their own situation, then I guess the followers have a chance of getting what they want, especially if the principles are valid and not misunderstood by the leader themselves. When they are misunderstood - like "I succeeded because God/the Universe/The Winds wanted me to" or " I put my goals first and my family last and that's why I succeeeded" or they are incomplete like "I held the right vibration". Then we get people experiencing more of what they don't want and less of what they do want. Or if the leader tries to teach method instead of principle like in MLM - "Do what I do and you will suceed" Often this it is a long road of dissapointment.

When the leader has become conscious of the principles he followed, eg "I really understood my client's need before I chose a product/service/advice to offer" and teaches them well and the follower is able and allowed and willing to adapt and apply it to their individual situation - which is never exactly the same as the leader's - then we have charisma bring about more of what people want and less of what they don't want.

Anyhow that's where I have got to so far on my own exploration of this topic. I find I have been a leader in my area many times, I have always had good intentions and a desire for my friends/staff/students to do well. I have always insisted that we work from priniples and that my students apply it to their situation. But I haven't always had my principles down straight - Not surprising really, having grown up with Hubbard as the model of good leadership, the meglomania that comes from "making it go right" for all your adult life, throw in an unhealthy lack of respect for science, academia or wog world experience and I too found myself convinced of my own conjecture, due to it's "truthiness".

I see this in many places, the "positive thinking" movement, the "wealth through entrepreneurship" crowd, and if you notice the one's who are charismatic are certain, convinced they have the solution and appear congruent.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I've know untrustworthy individuals who were not charismatic. I've known charming people who were both trustworthy and outstanding leaders, yet who were not charismatic. But every genuinely charismatic person I have ever met was absolutely untrustworthy, without a single exception. As a result I consider as suspect any individual who is reputed to be charismatic. It is prima facie evidence that something is likely to be amiss.


Mark A. Baker