What is Depression?

[La La Lou Lou]

I really dont think the cult addresses depression.

Procrastination is akin to it.

So is doubt, uncertainly, hesitancy, even fatigue.

So is any confusion that isnt A-B. It's something not flowing, like an ESMB thread that's been hijacked.

If normality is a straight line then depression is more like a birds nest.

You can also say it's a problem with no way of resolving it. This is the cause of suicide or probably murder, an attempt to make it go away. It certainly could have been the state of mind of someone willing to kill someone then himself. Perhaps Rex should have flown his ruds and the PTP would have been handled?

Don't think so!

 

[Vinaire]

I really dont think the cult addresses depression.

Procrastination is akin to it.

So is doubt, uncertainly, hesitancy, even fatigue.

So is any confusion that isnt A-B. It's something not flowing, like an ESMB thread that's been hijacked.

If normality is a straight line then depression is more like a birds nest.

You can also say it's a problem with no way of resolving it. This is the cause of suicide or probably murder, an attempt to make it go away. It certainly could have been the state of mind of someone willing to kill someone then himself. Perhaps Rex should have flown his ruds and the PTP would have been handled?

Don't think so!

You know La La Lou Lou, You always amaze me with your intelligent observations, and the way you express them with so few words.

I am often accused of ruminating all over the map and talking too much. Right now I am happy to have penetrated the mystery of OT levels, so I think I can start winding down.

This KHTK data goes beyond OT levels in my estimation.

.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Vinaire, I'll let you into a secret. It's the delete button. I let my thoughts pour out, then delete all the unnecessary and repeated stuff.

I enjoy the way your mind works, though often it skims above my head.

I am a simple painter, illustrator even, and I enjoy painting pictures in words too.

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

Yes, as I see it, that is an excellent way of nullifying any mental resistance to looking and experiencing.

Looking and experiencing is totally non-judgmental. Judgment comes in when one mixes thinking with looking. That is what contributes to resistance.

With practice, looking and experiencing can become like a laser beam that would melt away the underlying confusion at any point of non-optimum attention.

IDENICS through the help of a practitioner provides wonderful assist until one can do so by oneself.

.

Vinaire,

get out of the Scientology mental way of discussing, that anything which is different from one´s view is nullification. And attack as a defense... it so scio, that way of "discussing". Before generalizing back, please understand the post. As if saying that "it is a perfect way of nullifying" is not a nullification of my complete post itself!!

Did you truly understand my point of LOOKING WITH THE HEART, not with the MIND, and the importance of it?

We agree on just looking, but the heart should not be left out of the equation. How important is the heart, and how entrapping is the mind. Yes, one can look, without mind, fine, but how about looking with the heart, that is a completely different thing... Hope my point is more clear now.

I meant Idenics, as a pure looking system, without judgement, in that we agree.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Anecdotal evidence

Vinaire, I look forward to your answer. I have been able to get glimpses of the genesis of the depression that I did not realize, for years, that I was walking around with. The beginnings of it occurred around the age of 5-7 years old, when -- as I now look back on it -- was anxiety and sadness at having the feeling that a certain member of my family did not want me in the family. It looks like the depression was the result of an unanswered question, the lack of an explanation as to why I was not acceptable. Present time situation is that I STILL don't know what I do that makes me unacceptable.

I have read this thread in its entirety and found Vinaire's process commendable and useful...in my opinion, anyway.

The post of "Finally Me's" quoted above focused my attention on my first wife and I took a good look at the scene that was.

She had (and still has) a brother 5 years her senior, who has behaved and acted toward her from her birth in ways that never made any sense to me. While he could be socially quite normal seeming with regard to her, it would be fair to say that if she were to vanish, he would not give it a second thought, but would likely be quite pleased.

Once she told me, she asked him how or what it was about her that offended him. He answered: "it is simply that you exist". (that she appeared and took a portion of the parent's attention that had been solely his heretofore, is my take on it)

FinallyMe, it struck me that something similar might be as much answer as exists re: "I STILL don't know what I do that makes me unacceptable."

Even today, to my knowledge, she has not really come to terms with the fact that he values her not at all. That said, he could seem nice, loving and even supportive when he wanted something from her - which was often enough to keep her on quite a roller coaster...particularly in childhood and young adulthood.

There are some individuals who are total shitheads - but can appear otherwise, depending on what they want or need in a given situation.

Apologies for diverting this thread somewhat...this just popped into view and perhaps it will resonate or assist someone in some way.

Attention, management thereof...is a key to much that we call life, as I see it.

Love,

EP

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

As mentioned, there is something to perception and attention and their relationship to depression.

There is another factor and that is the subject of universes.

LRH moved out of the mental science of Dianetics into the spiritual philosophy of Scientology. In one lecture he said Scientology was the subject of universes. There is one's own universe - this is the inner world of the individual; thoughts, imagination, memory, conclusions etc. Then there is the physical universe, that world around us that we agree to be real. Then there are all the universes of each person.

When one is unable to differentiate between the agreed upon physical universe and their own universe, that is when they start getting into trouble.

Hence the idea of objective processing to bring the person into present time in the physical universe, to perceive their environment as separate from the inner world of the past time track (recordings or facsimilies of past events now only existing within one's own universe).

Another interesting idea LRH discussed is the person is not stuck in the past, but rather the past is pulled into the present (hence the non-differentiation). Again the objective processes pulling the time track into its proper length is part of the solution.

IAAS

Many or most of us here, have done beyond objectives, some even way further beyond, and probably much further beyond than you, judging by your posts.

You have said nothing pertaining depression, at all in your post, just parroted some inconex data.

In my view, the scio mental state, just covers up, underlying depressions. That false euphoria, is simply a mask, and some depressional states underly and remain just masked.

What do you think about that guys?

In my case I was a bit depressive before scio, when leaving scio, that came up again, as if it had been latent and never handled really. Interesting, I thought to myself, so everything which was never really adressed by scio processing, needs now to be adressed with other techniques.

Did something similar happen to other people?

 

[Vinaire]

Vinaire,

get out of the Scientology mental way of discussing, that anything which is different from one´s view is nullification. And attack as a defense... it so scio, that way of "discussing". Before generalizing back, please understand the post. As if saying that "it is a perfect way of nullifying" is not a nullification of my complete post itself!!

Did you truly understand my point of LOOKING WITH THE HEART, not with the MIND, and the importance of it?

We agree on just looking, but the heart should not be left out of the equation. How important is the heart, and how entrapping is the mind. Yes, one can look, without mind, fine, but how about looking with the heart, that is a completely different thing... Hope my point is more clear now.

I meant Idenics, as a pure looking system, without judgement, in that we agree.

Sorry! I didn't expain myself well. I meant overcoming the resistance. Nullifying was the wrong word to use. I have corrected my earlier sentence as follows:

Yes, as I see it, that is an excellent way of overcoming any mental resistance to looking and experiencing.

By "heart" I understand being totally sincere with no deception even to oneself... fully meaning what one says or feels.

"Heart" to me means full, complete and sincere involvement. I have no idea what it means to you.

.

 

[Vinaire]

Vinaire,

get out of the Scientology mental way of discussing, that anything which is different from one´s view is nullification. And attack as a defense... it so scio, that way of "discussing". Before generalizing back, please understand the post. As if saying that "it is a perfect way of nullifying" is not a nullification of my complete post itself!!

Did you truly understand my point of LOOKING WITH THE HEART, not with the MIND, and the importance of it?

We agree on just looking, but the heart should not be left out of the equation. How important is the heart, and how entrapping is the mind. Yes, one can look, without mind, fine, but how about looking with the heart, that is a completely different thing... Hope my point is more clear now.

I meant Idenics, as a pure looking system, without judgement, in that we agree.

I must say I was surprised at this response. Have I confused you in some way?

.

 

[The Great Zorg]

My 2¢ worth: I believe some 'states of depression' can be attributed to dark spirits attaching themselves to us. I'm actually being quite serious. The spiritual path that I now follow has led me to others who have walked me through a spiritual cleansing, with dramatic results. Depression: cleansing: no depression. This is not a scientific study, more of a cause-effect thing with a theoretical explanation.

The North American 1st Peoples knew of such spirits, and had a ritual to rid themselves of these spirits. Other society's in centuries past have done the same, as I do now with 'smudging'; the burning of cedar, white sage and sweetgrass in a shell.

Modern New Agers will comment on 'spiritual vampires' spirits or people that actually drain you when in their presence. I can sometimes see the 'darkness' around people like this; the proverbial 'dark cloud hanging over you'? In $cio we used to call it 'mass'... 'you've got a lot of 'mass' around you'.

Leaving $cientology and it's mental straitjacket has allowed me to be open to new ideas while remaining skeptical at best has shown me that there's a pretty wild universe out there with many things unaccounted for.

 

[SuperPowers]

Zorg!

My 2¢ worth: I believe some 'states of depression' can be attributed to dark spirits attaching themselves to us. I'm actually being quite serious. The spiritual path that I now follow has led me to others who have walked me through a spiritual cleansing, with dramatic results. Depression: cleansing: no depression. This is not a scientific study, more of a cause-effect thing with a theoretical explanation.

The North American 1st Peoples knew of such spirits, and had a ritual to rid themselves of these spirits. Other society's in centuries past have done the same, as I do now with 'smudging'; the burning of cedar, white sage and sweetgrass in a shell.

Modern New Agers will comment on 'spiritual vampires' spirits or people that actually drain you when in their presence. I can sometimes see the 'darkness' around people like this; the proverbial 'dark cloud hanging over you'? In $cio we used to call it 'mass'... 'you've got a lot of 'mass' around you'.

Leaving $cientology and it's mental straitjacket has allowed me to be open to new ideas while remaining skeptical at best has shown me that there's a pretty wild universe out there with many things unaccounted for.

Very poetic but - no offence - are you sober? Now we're in Hollywood right?!

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

I must say I was surprised at this response. Have I confused you in some way?

.

We got each other wrong, Vin. Now clear and fine.

I really mean the path of the heart, looking with the heart. Is a bit long to explain, as I see you have a completely different understanding of my words. Will do it later on a longer post, when I have a bit more time to explain, the what´s and how´s.

 

[Vinaire]

We got each other wrong, Vin. Now clear and fine.

I really mean the path of the heart, looking with the heart. Is a bit long to explain, as I see you have a completely different understanding of my words. Will do it later on a longer post, when I have a bit more time to explain, the what´s and how´s.

Ok, fine... but that was a mighty sharp reaction, and I won't mind helping you look at what else might still be there that got triggered. I mean it with total sincerity. If it is all clear then it is all clear.

By the way, I started this thread because my attention was on helping somebody who is really near and dear to me, and I was totally taken by surprise a week or so ago to find her in a "totally crashed" condition due to depression.

This investigation into depression has really become a personal project for me. I hope whatever I learn here, I can pass on to others to help themselves with.

.

 

[The Great Zorg]

Very poetic but - no offence - are you sober? Now we're in Hollywood right?!

No... I'm drunk.

Yeah, it's Hollywood.

 

[Vinaire]

Hug

I just felt like posting this picture.

.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

That is a wonderful picture Vinaire ... it contains so much and it is so relevant to this thread.



paul.spiritualquest ... re "looking with the heart" ... you just said it all for me, at this time ... you can see a lot by looking with the heart.


The Great Zorg Your post is cool and you were 'brave' to post it (under the circumstances Lol) ... just because we have been conned by hubbard surely does not mean we can no longer look elsewhere at other (often simple) ideas?


This is a very caring thread, there are some great contributions (La La Lou Lou ... you are gifted).

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

Ok, fine... but that was a mighty sharp reaction, and I won't mind helping you look at what else might still be there that got triggered. I mean it with total sincerity. If it is all clear then it is all clear.

By the way, I started this thread because my attention was on helping somebody who is really near and dear to me, and I was totally taken by surprise a week or so ago to find her in a "totally crashed" condition due to depression.

This investigation into depression has really become a personal project for me. I hope whatever I learn here, I can pass on to others to help themselves with.

.

Please there is something I really don´t like. You don´t need to help me to check for a trigger or any of the sort, I find that condescending. Your reaction was as harsh as mine if not even more. Have a read at your reply to mine. Ok? So let´s just stop that, and get to the point of the discussion, yes? I find it non-productive to keep in circles on the words of the words of the words, and not into the subject matter. Let´s drop it, and keep talking about the subject matter: depression-

I wonder, did you try with Idenics to help this person? Should also work for that, no?

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

That is a wonderful picture Vinaire ... it contains so much and it is so relevant to this thread.



paul.spiritualquest ... re "looking with the heart" ... you just said it all for me, at this time ... you can see a lot by looking with the heart.


The Great Zorg Your post is cool and you were 'brave' to post it (under the circumstances Lol) ... just because we have been conned by hubbard surely does not mean we can no longer look elsewhere at other (often simple) ideas?


This is a very caring thread, there are some great contributions (La La Lou Lou ... you are gifted).

Thanks "I wonder...". I´m really doing that now systematically, as a kind of process, and boy it is helping big time. I will post later more in detail about it.

 

[Vinaire]

Please there is something I really don´t like. You don´t need to help me to check for a trigger or any of the sort, I find that condescending. Your reaction was as harsh as mine if not even more. Have a read at your reply to mine. Ok? So let´s just stop that, and get to the point of the discussion, yes? I find it non-productive to keep in circles on the words of the words of the words, and not into the subject matter. Let´s drop it, and keep talking about the subject matter: depression-

I wonder, did you try with Idenics to help this person? Should also work for that, no?

I can see you don't love me.

What is "heart" really? What does "loving" and "forgiving" really mean? Is it applicable only to oneself?

I have seen enough Christians talk about it, and then they turn around and abuse those from other religions.

.

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

I can see you don't love me.

What is "heart" really? What does "loving" and "forgiving" really mean? Is it applicable only to oneself?

I have seen enough Christians talk about it, and then they turn around and abuse those from other religions.

.

Vinaire,

come on, I DO love you. I like this thread, and I like to read all viewpoints about it. I sometimes don´t like too much significance, mind-mind, that´s all. Has nothing to do with you personally.

1. I´m not really a Chrisitian, nor an anti-Christian, and the heart thing, is not coming from a Christian point at all.

2. Try to understand what I meant by looking from the heart and a bit less from the mind.

Honestly. I like Idenics, i like your involvement in it. I´m also kind of a mathematician. I loved India when I was there, and had good friends there. Some posts of you, I do like, some I don´t. But I generally do love this community. It has helped me tons, so I hope to help back as far as I can.

Please don´t take it personally, you also said something like "complete nullification" and that triggered this and that here and there. We can just stop it both. I´m really interested in the thread and the topic at hand.

You are a great guy, so am I. We don´t need to agree in everything, we are out of that. And that is GREAT so.

On the other hand, that I apply the heart doesn´t mean, I must give in on everything, or I need to agree with everybody, and give away my viewpoints.

I invite you to a drink.

So, back to the point, did you try Idenics on that person? I´m sincerely curious if depression can be adressed through Idenics, and what was your experience on that? I guess it can, but I´m not a practitioner, and know little about it in practicing experience.

 

[Vinaire]

In Idenics, or in any auditing, it is what the other person does that really matters. A person in deep depression is not up to doing a session - any session - including an Idenics session. What does one do then?

I did give her the KHTK principles (see the OP) to apply as and when she could. Whenever I talked to her on phone I refrained from giving any advice or suggestions. I applied Idenics principles as best I could and just explained the KHTK principles the best I could.

Yesterday, she sounded pretty much normal. For the moment she is out of that paralyzing depression and busy catching up with all the work she has to do. I am keeping a close eye that she does not fall into depression again.

.