What is Depression?

[Vinaire]

...

come on, I DO love you. I like this thread, and I like to read all viewpoints about it. I sometimes don´t like too much significance, mind-mind, that´s all. Has nothing to do with you personally.

...

Now why does somebody's vocal investigation bug one?

The last investigation that I have recently completed had to do with OT levels, and I am quite satisfied with it. It included the mystery of BTs as Scientology calls it, or "spritual teammates" as Knowledgism calls it.

I have concluded that there are no BTs or "spiritual teammates." Those ideas are there just as a "method" to prevent thinking while looking. All the OT levels above OT III just serve this one function...

TO RUN LOWER GRADES PROCESSES AND DIANETICS AGAIN, BUT TAKING THE APPROACH OF "LOOKING WITHOUT THINKING" THIS TIME AROUND.

OT I is more or less practicing LOOKING. And OT II is equivalent to WORD CLEARING some ideas encoded as "end words" to a CONCEPTUAL UNDERSTANDING.

It took me a lot of looking myself as well as vocal looking on this board and on TSF to arrive at the above conclusions. This vocal looking was necessary to get other viewpoints involved and look at those viewpoint themselves.

There is no "mind, mind, mind" in this. This investigation actually revealed the unnecessary significance of BTs and SPIRITUAL TEAMMATES, which some people have fallen for.

NOW WHY SHOULD THIS INVESTIGATION BOTHER ANYBODY?

It may bother only those who were simply not tracking with it. But even those people can now take a sigh of relief at the conclusions arrived at as above about the OT levels.

Now if there is disagreement then there is just disagreement, and the talk of "mind, mind, mind" is indicating something else that is bothering that person.

This analysis has nothing to do with you personally. Though, I may grant that just the idea of analysis could be bothersome to some people.


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[KnightVision]

Depression is running around spotting people who don't love you.

 

[Vinaire]

Critcizing and passing snide remarks is an easy thing to do. But helping others, or passing encouraging words does not seem to come so easy to some.

Why are some people so nasty? Is this an indicator of depression?

I was disppointed to witness the petty behavior of some of the so-called OTs on the other thread. Based on their behavior it is hard to differentiate them from wogs.

So what are the characteristics of a truly spiritual person?

By the way, I consider myself to be simply an analyst. Some may regard me as the most anal, evaluative, horrible, and depressed person. That is okay. I take it as a feedback to what I write.

.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Vinaire, I love the way your mind works, but it's not the same as mine, you are very abstract in your thinking. You can hold big thoughts in your head that would send mine into overwhelm. That's what Paul was talking about, it's the mathematician in you, wonderful but alien to those of us that just emote. Some people like to read string theory before going to bed and some of like an action thriller or a romantic novel, or a plot free erotic story. There's no right or wrong here.

We are all different, that's good.

It might even be to do with the chukras, your approach is cerebral and Paul's more of the heart chukra. Mine is way lower down!

There is not conflict here, there's just different people seeing things slightly differently because we are all different.

Your need and ability to analyse is important to you. It's what makes you you. You don't have to have anyone's agreement to carry on. But please do anyway.

 

[Vinaire]

Vinaire, I love the way your mind works, but it's not the same as mine, you are very abstract in your thinking. You can hold big thoughts in your head that would send mine into overwhelm. That's what Paul was talking about, it's the mathematician in you, wonderful but alien to those of us that just emote. Some people like to read string theory before going to bed and some of like an action thriller or a romantic novel, or a plot free erotic story. There's no right or wrong here.

We are all different, that's good.

It might even be to do with the chukras, your approach is cerebral and Paul's more of the heart chukra. Mine is way lower down!

There is not conflict here, there's just different people seeing things slightly differently because we are all different.

Your need and ability to analyse is important to you. It's what makes you you. You don't have to have anyone's agreement to carry on. But please do anyway.

Well, La La Lou Lou, wherever your Chakra is, it is a very sensible Chakra and I appreciate it very much. But I cannot say the same thing about many other people's Chakras.

If they don't like what I write they don't have to read it. They can put me on ignore. But nastiness is nastiness and it only makes me analyze the source of that nastiness. It is not something personal for me. Even my ego for me is something to be looked at and analyzed. Sooner or later I shall get at the bottom of that too.


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[La La Lou Lou]

Be careful not to as-is yourself Vinaire, it would be a shame to see you disappear in a puff of self understanding!

 

[Vinaire]

Be careful not to as-is yourself Vinaire, it would be a shame to see you disappear in a puff of self understanding!

Non-attachment is the truest game where everyone wins!

Om namah shivaya.

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[La La Lou Lou]

Na Mantram No Yantram Tadapi Cha Na Jane Stutimaho Na Chavhanam Dhyanam Tadapi Cha Na Jane Stutikathah I
Na Jane Mudraste Tadapi Cha Na Jane Vilapanam Param Jane Matastvadanusaranam Kleshaharanam II

 

[La La Lou Lou]

You do your Shiva stuff I'll carry on doing mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL0OV4zdiJE

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

Now why does somebody's vocal investigation bug one?

The last investigation that I have recently completed had to do with OT levels, and I am quite satisfied with it. It included the mystery of BTs as Scientology calls it, or "spritual teammates" as Knowledgism calls it.

I have concluded that there are no BTs or "spiritual teammates." Those ideas are there just work as a "method" to prevent thinking while looking. All the OT levels above OT III just serve this one function...

TO RUN LOWER GRADES PROCESSES AND DIANETICS AGAIN, BUT TAKING THE APPROACH OF "LOOKING WITHOUT THINKING" THIS TIME AROUND.

OT I is more or less practicing LOOKING. And OT II is equivalent to WORD CLEARING some ideas encoded as "end words" to a CONCEPTUAL UNDERSTANDING.

It took me a lot of looking myself as well as vocal looking on this board and on TSF to arrive at the above conclusions. This vocal looking was necessary to get other viewpoints involved and look at those viewpoint themselves.

There is no "mind, mind, mind" in this. This investigation actually revealed the unnecessary significance of BTs and SPIRITUAL TEAMMATES, which some people have fallen for.

NOW WHY SHOULD THIS INVESTIGATION BOTHER ANYBODY?

It may bother only those who were simply not tracking with it. But even those people can now take a sigh of relief at the conclusions arrived at as above about the OT levels.

Now if there is disagreement then there is just disagreement, and the talk of "mind, mind, mind" is indicating something else that is bothering that person.

This analysis has nothing to do with you personally. Though, I may grant that just the idea of analysis could be bothersome to some people.


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I didn´t read about your investigation on the BT thing at all. Hm, will have a look on that.

No, no. The talk of mind-mind is on a completely different level. We coming from Scientology were too much into the mind-mind, so to say "analytical" approach to live and problems.

I see that just looking is not mind. BUT the heart is out of the equation. That´s just all I´m complaining about. Let me ellaborate detailedly in another post. I don´t post so much lately around here, I´m just too busy with live. I take this group as a an hotel, where to go from time to time, not as an appartment where to live. It works best for me that way.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Paul I'm looking forward to hearing more about your heart and what you do with it. I'm quite intrigued.

 

[Challenge]

IAAS,

There comes a point when one one should stop parroting the authority and start to think for oneself.

That is the point where one really graduates from the spirtual kindergarten.

So, when are you going to graduate?

Best wishes,
Vinaire

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hell, I can't even read this thread!
Maybe I have depression confused with despair, but it is impossible for me to be so clinically-minded when it comes to depression.
In around 1962 as I was going through a divorce, i was being audited by Don Breeding. He was just out of the D.C. church. Suddenly he was arrested for child molestation.
It was all just too fricking much for me.
I felt that my children, myself, the world in general would be better off without me in it.
I took a handful of Seconal
Don came and found me unconscious. I was rushed to the hospital and had my stomach pumped.
Since Don was a "minister", I was not held for any type of counselling or observation. That was not in my best interest. I badly needed some counselling other than whatever it was that Don Breeding was delivering.
That feeling that you are worthless, that the world would be better without your presence, is depression, baby.
To say that Objectives will alleviate it, or that nutrition will alleviate it, or that it is a chemical imbalance is not helpful to a one who is in the throes of depression.
This thread pisses me off.

Challenge

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Challenge you are right. Depression is not cured by taking a Paracetamol and having a lie down.

The strength of depression you must have felt must have been unbearable. Your feelings cannot be denied. I do hope it's all in the past now for you.

I found that simply looking at my depressions of the past to be quite overwhelming. The black cloud is stronger than I thought, it's a black whirling vortex, I refuse to go there again, and my light approach to this subject is part of that.

 

[Vinaire]

You do your Shiva stuff I'll carry on doing mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL0OV4zdiJE

No question about it!

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[Vinaire]

I didn´t read about your investigation on the BT thing at all. Hm, will have a look on that.

No, no. The talk of mind-mind is on a completely different level. We coming from Scientology were too much into the mind-mind, so to say "analytical" approach to live and problems.

I see that just looking is not mind. BUT the heart is out of the equation. That´s just all I´m complaining about. Let me ellaborate detailedly in another post. I don´t post so much lately around here, I´m just too busy with live. I take this group as a an hotel, where to go from time to time, not as an appartment where to live. It works best for me that way.

Well, as La La Lou Lou says, you do your thing and I do mine.

I prefer looking and analyzing so I do that. You prefer your "heart" thing, so you do that. I am not complaining about what you do. So, please don't complain about what I do.

Please allow me my space.

.

 

[Vinaire]

hell, I can't even read this thread!
Maybe I have depression confused with despair, but it is impossible for me to be so clinically-minded when it comes to depression.
In around 1962 as I was going through a divorce, i was being audited by Don Breeding. He was just out of the D.C. church. Suddenly he was arrested for child molestation.
It was all just too fricking much for me.
I felt that my children, myself, the world in general would be better off without me in it.
I took a handful of Seconal
Don came and found me unconscious. I was rushed to the hospital and had my stomach pumped.
Since Don was a "minister", I was not held for any type of counselling or observation. That was not in my best interest. I badly needed some counselling other than whatever it was that Don Breeding was delivering.
That feeling that you are worthless, that the world would be better without your presence, is depression, baby.
To say that Objectives will alleviate it, or that nutrition will alleviate it, or that it is a chemical imbalance is not helpful to a one who is in the throes of depression.
This thread pisses me off.

Challenge

Dear Challenge,

I have been through similar to what you experienced. I have been there and I am not kidding. You are right about what you wrote that simple this or simple that is not going to pull one out of it.

Right now I am struggling to pull a loved one out of depression. It is not easy. I am using whatever skill and understanding I have. Maybe there is an experience here for me, and some lessons to be learned. I shall be sharing it as I have been sharing everything else.

Nobody has to read what I write. So if you don't want to read me please put me on ignore. That is alright with me.

But I write, because I do get valuable feedback on ESMB.

My love to you,
Vinaire

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[Vinaire]

Challenge you are right. Depression is not cured by taking a Paracetamol and having a lie down.

The strength of depression you must have felt must have been unbearable. Your feelings cannot be denied. I do hope it's all in the past now for you.

I found that simply looking at my depressions of the past to be quite overwhelming. The black cloud is stronger than I thought, it's a black whirling vortex, I refuse to go there again, and my light approach to this subject is part of that.

Per my observation, there is no need to look at the depressions of the past. It is not an incident that can be run out Dianetic style.

For me, the KHTK principles point to the way out. I have not worked it out fully yet, but my gut feeling is that I am on the right path.

I have to walk that path to know what are the proper turns. I cannot predict them.

.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

I wasn't trying to run it out, I was looking at it simply to try to describe it, and to understand it. As Iv'e said before I don't think very abstractly. The black vortex is still there as a presence, to me it's a real thing, it has power even though I'm not depressed the power of it could still pull me back in. Depression is heavy shit! Forget all the R6's and OT3 crap this is real powerful stuff. Just glancing at it's memory is debilitating. Makes me realise how much Ron missed. He never addressed this state, he went into space opera rather than confront the truth of here and now. Perhaps it was a just big non-confront on his part.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Thinking about it you are right, there is no way you could run it out, it's just not that sort of thing. It's way bigger than the trauma that might have set it in action. In the old way of of speaking it's just not an Engram Secondary or Lock. So therefore IAAS is right, it just can't exist.

 

[MrNobody]

<snip>

By the way, I started this thread because my attention was on helping somebody who is really near and dear to me, and I was totally taken by surprise a week or so ago to find her in a "totally crashed" condition due to depression.

This investigation into depression has really become a personal project for me. I hope whatever I learn here, I can pass on to others to help themselves with.

I hesitated to post in this interesting thread, because I couldn't offer "knowledge", just "personal experience", but here I am anyway.

From my experience, helping severely depressed people help themselves doesn't work and is in fact counter-productive. Here's why I think so:

One of my friends has been clinically diagnosed with severe depression about 40 years ago and has been seeing psychiatrists ever since - on a more or less regular basis.

For a quite a few months, I was her only connection to the outside world - or in fact to anyone and anything.

If you want to discuss depression with a depressive: Just. Don't. They know more about that topic than you will ever understand. Ask if you have to, but don't discuss.

Anyway, here's one of my experiences:

She: "Help me help myself? If you knew how I feel you would know that this cannot work and would in fact be counter-productive. Believe me, you're not the 1st one who tried."

I: "Ugh, why counterproductive?"

She: "If I were able to help myself, even with some additional external help (which I know is available), don't you think I would have done so by now? Fact is I can't, and you telling me that I can what I can't is just more proof for my worthlessness and pushes me further down the hole I'm already in."

<snip>

I: "OK, let's change topic. Let's address some more important points. How about your kitchen? It looks pretty empty, right now..."

She: "Yeah, I'm just not able to go shopping these days. I'm hardy able to open the door for the pizza service. In fact I'm not able to get anything done. I'm worthless already, so please don't repeat that message. Thanks."

I: "I didn't intend to repeat that message, I just thought you'd feel better with at least SOME food in the house."

She: "I already told you that I can't go shopping..."

I: "OK, here's the deal: I go shopping for you and you brew me a nice cup of coffee when I'm back. You think you can do that?"

She: "Well, yes... I guess..."

I: "OK, I'll be back in an hour."

I didn't really expect her to make me that coffee - I didn't even expect her to let me back in with all these scary shopping bags, but she did. She really did. A nice situation to refer to whenever she said she wasn't able to do anything - within it's limits, of course. It still took a few more weeks until she could go shopping with me and a few more until she could do it alone, but slowly, step by step, she came closer to a normal life.

So what did I learn from that? Telling a severely depressed person how to live their life and how to help themselves doesn't really work. It wouldn't work with most people, would it? What helps is to bring your life a little closer to theirs. If they can't take a shower or go shopping or whatever, don't push them to do it. Accept it for now, but gently take their hand and slowly and patiently lead them to the point from where they ARE able to do it - WHEN they want to do it. From themselves and for themselves.

Ugh, did I get my point across? I hope so...