What is OSA's specific concern?

[Carmel]

The other day Arnie asked the likes of Feral and myself, about any concerns we had regarding 'fair gaming'. We answered him, and expressed a previous concern re our 'priest penitent privileged' data being divulged.

Feral gave a specific example about the ED ACT being told to go to a protester and say "baaa..". (the protester had obviously had some sort of an experience with a sheep or something).

Yesterday, this ex ED ACT was called by Vicki Dunstan (CO OSA ANZO) in reference to what Feral posted. Per the ex ED, he was instructed to go and use this tactic on a particular protester, in an effort to drive in the guys anchor points and miss his witholds. Reportedly a DSA staff member instructed him to do so. On the phone yesterday, the CO OSA was telling him that this wasn't so, that it must have been some local ACT staff member's idea or somebody else's idea. Per the ex ED ACT, the order did come from the DSA (and he had clear recall on what occurred). He told me that the CO OSA was trying to get agreement from him that it didn't come from the DSA. He also said that she wanted him to counter what Feral had posted on the same thread, and 'correct it'.

So what is their flip out on this? Are they concerned about being prosecuted as extortionists, or just trying to protect the conception that anything that comes up in auditing is priest penitent privileged? The CofS has been accused of revealing pc data before. The fact that OSA called and wanted the statement retracted, supports the view that they are sensitive to this type of accusation. What is their specific concern about it being known that data in one's pc folder, has been or is being used to silence critics of Scn?

 

[Feral]

The cofs has been using PC folder data for a while to silence critics, I have even read it in a court document where Mary Sue was present, Peter Alexander and Stacy Brooks have stated that pc folder data was used against them.

Now OSA is telling the ex ED of ACT org that he couldn't have been a party to it, when he clearly remembers otherwise, trying to re-write history OSA?

 

[klidov]

VERY old Mafia/Organized Crime trick:

Give an order (implied or direct), the understanding being.."if you get caught it was your idea alone. Take the fall, and we will provide legal aid, provide for your family, send you care packages in jail, and you will keep your honor. Tell on us, and we will claim we never even met you. Then we will kill you, and destroy everyone (and everything) that matters to you".

Translation from Klidov:

OSA are lying shitheads that will run like hell when caught & throw anyone under a bus.

 

[Sir Facer]

Another OSA / DSA Crime

Thanks for the post Ceedia, HOWEVER IT DOES'NT END HERE;
Thanks for the post Ceedia, HOWEVER IT DOES'NT END HERE;

around the same time and concerning the same protester, the DSA ACT at the time printed up a whole bunch of Child molestation and incest fliers and asked my sister if she would stand next to the protester and hand them out

(obviously his PC folder was gone through, and they found out he had misdeeds in this area that he disclosed under the priest penitent privalage ) to also once again miss the withholds and cave the protester in.

IS THAT GONNA BE DENIED TOO OSA!!!!!!!
IT CAN'T BE, CAUSE THE DSA TOLD ME; THAT WAS THE ORDER FROM OSA AND UNFORTUNATE FOR DSA & OSA IT DIRECTLY INVOLVED MY SISTER BEING ASKED TO HELP THE CHURCH AS THE PROTESTER WAS OBVIOUSLY VERY BAD AND NEEDED TO BE "HANDLED" AND THAT JUSTIFIED MY YOUNGER SIS HAVING TO DO THIS. POSTED IN CAPITALS CAUSE OSA NEED TO GET OFF OUR LINES AS THERE CRIMES ARE COMMING OUTOF THE CLOSET!!!!!!!!!

NOW CRAWL BACK TO THE MOST ETHICAL CHURCH ON THE PLANET AND FINALLY REALISED YOU FUCKED OVER THE WRONG PEOPLE YET AGAIN

PS: Do you see your futures looking a bit like this or perhaps more like this


OH one more thing OSA; Best you stop falling for made up rumors about Myself and then relaying them to my husband or the next egg I am sitting on will be hatched, Are you all so stupid in there as to honestly believe what you hear????? If so every piece ever written against Scientology must be true

 

[Miss Withhold]

More info

Feral gave a specific example about the ED ACT being told to go to a protester and say "baaa..". (the protester had obviously had some sort of an experience with a sheep or something).

Yesterday, this ex ED ACT was called by Vicki Dunstan (CO OSA ANZO) in reference to what Feral posted. Per the ex ED, he was instructed to go and use this tactic on a particular protester, in an effort to drive in the guys anchor points and miss his witholds. Reportedly a DSA staff member instructed him to do so. On the phone yesterday, the CO OSA was telling him that this wasn't so, that it must have been some local ACT staff member's idea or somebody else's idea. Per the ex ED ACT, the order did come from the DSA (and he had clear recall on what occurred). He told me that the CO OSA was trying to get agreement from him that it didn't come from the DSA. He also said that she wanted him to counter what Feral had posted on the same thread, and 'correct it'.

So what is their flip out on this? Are they concerned about being prosecuted as extortionists, or just trying to protect the conception that anything that comes up in auditing is priest penitent privileged? The CofS has been accused of revealing pc data before. The fact that OSA called and wanted the statement retracted, supports the view that they are sensitive to this type of accusation. What is their specific concern about it being known that data in one's pc folder, has been or is being used to silence critics of Scn?

Well having been on staff at ACT org at the time that this occured I have to put my 2 cents worth in...

I had just come back on staff after almost 2 years off with my first child just prior to all this starting. This protestor was an ex staff member who had blown the TTC. He had been sent to Sydney -AO for full time training and had left from there.

I have no idea where the whole sheep thing came from but I do not doubt Deans story as the data on this Withhold could only have come from his PC file of which
1. ACT org did not have as he was a trainee at the AO
2. No one had given him an ethics handling in ACT for this to have come up.
3. Was later confirmed to me by DSA ACT that it was PC file data

So this 'BAAAA' data had to come from somewhere???

I witnessed both Sir Facer and Dean running around outside of ACT org in front of poor protester looking and sounding like they needed a good ol' shearing.

This was the way for several weeks at each protest. The DSA was there at every protest and it was only after the first 3 weeks I heard her pulling both Sir Facer and Dean aside telling them they are not to BAAA anymore as it was data that came up in a session and it is priest penitent privileged. My guess is that protestor in order to try and hold onto any dignity he had left threatend to go the Church for violating PPP so of course the DSAs tuned changed.

Anyways this was not where it stopped. Not sure if you recall this bit Sir Facer but you and I were sent to put Dianetics pamphlets into the letter boxs at this protestors flat on several occassions. We were also to then just sit outside of his flat until he came home so that he saw us and would then know we knew where he lived. Being good Ronbots we of course followed orders and needless to say protestor did not look so happy to see us there. It was just a stupid intimidation tactic which after a while worked on this poor bugger and he dissappeared.

I am a little confused as to why OSA would want this info retracted. These tactics are policy. One could hope that maybe they are just ashamed of these terrible deeds...

 

[Stably Exterior]

Old memories flooding back...

Old memories flooding back...

Like the last time I was ordered to CLO because it emerged that I wouldn't be re-signing after my 5 year contract expired. The year was 2000. The usual stints on the dish line ensued. As did the make it go right to find somewhere to sleep each night; and the make it go right to find a feed ...etc etc. (These issues I'd raised as objections before coming to Sydney in the first place and as always I was assured it would all be handled. Sure enough I handled it.)

But the highlight of this particular trip to CLO was being "interviewed" in the Dir I & R's office at the AO from about 11pm 'till 4am (whereupon I fell asleep on the couch in the Div 6 lounge). Some of the choice "questions" I was asked (that I can al least remember) by S. Crut......d (who was in comm by mobile phone to Kerry Ellis) were:

"What have you done to small boys?"

"What irregular practices have you been involved in?" (I won't mention the specifics)

"You must have major crimes to be blowing staff..?"

"Come clean on your out-ethics and enemy lines on management" (These enemy lines I had later turned out to be the same outnesses DM discovered and talked about in staff-only briefings.)

"You'll be completely lost out there in the wog world?" (even though for the previous 17 years I'd been soaking up what we were told was the 'Tech to handle Life')

"You have no skills ... what are you going to do?" (Fortunately I'd spent 5 years studying Electrical Engineering at Syd University before being roped into this cult)

There were usual tone level assignments (none above 2.0 of course).

....You get the drift.

(Note: I know people that got it a lot worse than I ever did.)

Anyway, it came to end when I showed S. the reference in OEC vol 1 about pulling witholds off the meter. He resorted to insisting that I sign the f---ing contract.

I remember several times during this interview thinking (while my interviewer went off to get new ammo) Wow, I really do owe these guys a debt of gratitude. Prior to this interview I did have doubts about leaving staff. Doubts about :

• whether I was doing the right thing by leaving this - the most on-purpose and ethical group on the planet.
• these islands of sanity in a turbulent world.

But all these doubts completely blew. These Sea Org handlings brought me through Doubt and I gained a certainty. A certainty that I'd never work under these jokers, and these upstart kids, ever again.

About 4 years after this episode I met S. at a friend's place. He was well and truly out of Scn - more so than I was at that time. Turned out he was doing some roofing and was becoming quite a talent as a performer. He saw me before I saw him and he came over, looked me straight in the eyes and apologised for that night 4 years earlier. This was nice guy driven to do stuff he never would of normally done. We shook hands and all was fine.

All the best to you buddy. In hindsight I think we helped each other realise what we were really involved with; and now we're free of it.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[Feral]

Great post Dean!!

I'm glad it worked out for both of you!

I see that finishing your staff contract doesn't exclude you from the mandatory abuse when you leave staff!

 

[scooter]

I remember being told this story by another person - so I know what's been posted here is true.

The person who relayed this to me was in a quite evil glee about caving other people in.

This person did make it to OT 8 - someone who happily carried out orders like this.

 

[Terril park]

The other day Arnie asked the likes of Feral and myself, about any concerns we had regarding 'fair gaming'. We answered him, and expressed a previous concern re our 'priest penitent privileged' data being divulged.

Feral gave a specific example about the ED ACT being told to go to a protester and say "baaa..". (the protester had obviously had some sort of an experience with a sheep or something).

Yesterday, this ex ED ACT was called by Vicki Dunstan (CO OSA ANZO) in reference to what Feral posted. Per the ex ED, he was instructed to go and use this tactic on a particular protester, in an effort to drive in the guys anchor points and miss his witholds. Reportedly a DSA staff member instructed him to do so. On the phone yesterday, the CO OSA was telling him that this wasn't so, that it must have been some local ACT staff member's idea or somebody else's idea. Per the ex ED ACT, the order did come from the DSA (and he had clear recall on what occurred). He told me that the CO OSA was trying to get agreement from him that it didn't come from the DSA. He also said that she wanted him to counter what Feral had posted on the same thread, and 'correct it'.

So what is their flip out on this? Are they concerned about being prosecuted as extortionists, or just trying to protect the conception that anything that comes up in auditing is priest penitent privileged? The CofS has been accused of revealing pc data before. The fact that OSA called and wanted the statement retracted, supports the view that they are sensitive to this type of accusation. What is their specific concern about it being known that data in one's pc folder, has been or is being used to silence critics of Scn?

From a PR point of view this is a disaster. It demonstrates to the public
that its not safe to get involved with COS.

I don't know what the legal ramifications are [IANAL] but this seems well
documented as coming from upper management, and DM is single handing that......

Also legally this may be a problem with regard to status as a church.

Would be good if this were to go out on TV with interviews and have a COS spokesperson present in the studio.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Terril is spot on!

But since that particular cat, folder culling, has been out since I was in, it seems weird that thay freak out over it now.

The difference in this case is that folder culling is undeniably documented. Right in the scilon neigborhood where it happened. So that those still in see it... And documented in a most hilarious way.. Those scilons running around 'BAAAA'ing at a protester.. I'm going to laugh for a week over that shit!

Mewhaha.. Anyway.. Folder culling is a serious betrayal of the solemn promises made about counselling at the early gradients of Scientology. We were 'persuaded' later that the ethics conditions cancelled that.. But I think even those still in knows that to be an 'overt' of some magnitude. When I was in, it was certainly some of the most 'sensitive' stuff around. Even as it was done routinely.

In fact it 'disabled' auditing for me.. When I realized, I knew I could never be audited. I already had figured out how to make my needle float when I wanted and needed it to. The knowledge that the confidentiality was compromised, made auditing impossible.

 

[Free to shine]

Mewhaha.. Anyway.. Folder culling is a serious betrayal of the solemn promises made about counselling at the early gradients of Scientology. We were 'persuaded' later that the ethics conditions cancelled that.. But I think even those still in knows that to be an 'overt' of some magnitude. When I was in, it was certainly some of the most 'sensitive' stuff around. Even as it was done routinely.

In fact it 'disabled' auditing for me.. When I realized, I knew I could never be audited. I already had figured out how to make my needle float when I wanted and needed it to. The knowledge that the confidentiality was compromised, made auditing impossible.

Thanks for that Schwimmy! I just realised it was the same for me. And as time went on, I realised I didn't need the Bridge anyway.

 

[alex]

From a PR point of view this is a disaster. It demonstrates to the public
that its not safe to get involved with COS.

I don't know what the legal ramifications are [IANAL] but this seems well
documented as coming from upper management, and DM is single handing that......

Also legally this may be a problem with regard to status as a church.

Would be good if this were to go out on TV with interviews and have a COS spokesperson present in the studio.

This distrust of the confidentiality of session data is currently my biggest block to bridge progress. Of course I may have been "third partied" by what I have read on the web, but cameras in the auditing rooms fuel my paranoia.

Scientology tech cannont work over the continuous ptp of worry about privacy.

Wisdom and perspective seem to have been lost in the rush to expediency.

 

[Zinjifar]

This distrust of the confidentiality of session data is currently my biggest block to bridge progress. Of course I may have been "third partied" by what I have read on the web, but cameras in the auditing rooms fuel my paranoia.

Scientology tech cannont work over the continuous ptp of worry about privacy.

Wisdom and perspective seem to have been lost in the rush to expediency.

There was nothing to 'lose'. Folder culling and disdain for 'personal space' and privacy are integral to Scientology. Naturally, this is more blatant in the 'movement' aspect of Scientology, but, there is no real dividing line between the 'Therapy' and the 'Movement' and never was.

'KRs', 'Flying Ruds', 'Scientology Ethics' are all anathema to 'Personal Privacy' and even the supposed 'confidential' PC Folders are and were never 'confidential' in the sense that, say, a Roman Catholic confession is, since they were always reviewed by multiple people.

It's possible that actual Therapeutic Confidentiality could exist in a 'non-movement' Scientology, one that existed in a form that was designed to serve the PC himself, rather than serving the PC as a side-effect of serving the 'Greatest Good For The Greatest Number of Dynamics'; i.e. The Scientology Movement, but, that would *not* be a Scientology as designed and intended by L. Ron Hubbard and specifically enumerated in 'Keeping Scientology Working'.

After all, there's a Planet to 'Clear' and Scientology is Mankind's Only Salvation.

You can't have it both ways Alex.

Zinj

 

[uniquemand]

Flying ruds isn't anathema to privacy. The person who is receiving an auditing session is there for the purpose of talking to the auditor about their case, with the aim of resolving it. Flying ruds is a way of opening the case that the person wants to share. It's entirely volitional.

 

[Zinjifar]

Flying ruds isn't anathema to privacy. The person who is receiving an auditing session is there for the purpose of talking to the auditor about their case, with the aim of resolving it. Flying ruds is a way of opening the case that the person wants to share. It's entirely volitional.

I've heard this before, and, you are incorrect. An important aspect to 'Flying Ruds' is locating 'present time problems' or upsets, and there are specific questions about 'upsets' with Scientology Management itself, or (gasp) Ron. But, even without those entirely self-serving 'investigations', the entire concept of demanding Scientology insight into 'Present Time Problems' is anathema to 'privacy'. Had a spat with your wife? What about? Is there anything you don't want to tell me? Yadda yadda.

Besides, *all* of Scientology, including even the worst abuses is 'voluntary'. Including 'Sec Checks', ComEvs, RPF....

Zinj

 

[Terril park]

Terril is spot on!

But since that particular cat, folder culling, has been out since I was in, it seems weird that thay freak out over it now.

Not only is it documented, its documented as coming from management and the buck stops with DM.

Also there is an army of people trying to correct abuses who are beyond COS control.

Currently the media seem very happy to do programs about COS.

I believe these are all new factors.

 

[Terril park]

This distrust of the confidentiality of session data is currently my biggest block to bridge progress. Of course I may have been "third partied" by what I have read on the web, but cameras in the auditing rooms fuel my paranoia.

Scientology tech cannont work over the continuous ptp of worry about privacy.

Wisdom and perspective seem to have been lost in the rush to expediency.

You know who to call.

Freezone ghostbusters!

 

[Feral]

Not only is it documented, its documented as coming from management and the buck stops with DM.

Also there is an army of people trying to correct abuses who are beyond COS control.

Currently the media seem very happy to do programs about COS.

I believe these are all new factors.

Err, is that us or anon or someone else??

 

[Voltaire's Child]

They will stop at nothing to quash criticism. Even if it means breaching their own codes, breaking the law, shooting themselves in the foot, etc.

 

[Smitty]

comment to Terril Park

Not only is it documented, its documented as coming from management and the buck stops with DM.
Also there is an army of people trying to correct abuses who are beyond COS control.
Currently the media seem very happy to do programs about COS.
I believe these are all new factors.

Terril seems to believe what he wants to believe. Culling of data from pc folders to be used for blackmail or provocation goes back at least into the early 1970's when it was done by the Guardian's Office on orders from Mary Sue and L. Ron Hubbard. It is standard scientology.