What is the one information that would have gotten you out sooner?

knn

Patron Meritorious
OK, well it's in that tape and elsewhere. I do not have those, but let's set those aside for the moment.

Is there evidence that he was not an athiest?

Can we say that L Ron Hubbard believed in God?
Maybe we can't. But if I would claim "Hubbard believed in prayer" or "Hubbard believed in god" then someone would have the fullest right to ask me for proof.

For instance, is the Creed of the Church of Scientology, where there is a reference to "no agency less than God can set aside these rights" is this reference evidence that LRH believed in God?
No it isn't. Because you could replace "god" with "spaghetti monster" and it would read "And that no agency less than the spaghetti monster has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly."

However one of the next sentences reads: "And we of the Church believe that the laws of God forbid man: To destroy his own kind; To destroy the sanity of another; To destroy or enslave another’s soul; To destroy or reduce the survival of one’s companions or one’s group."

There I cannot substitute "god" with "spaghetti monster".

Hubbard is said to have believed in "Empress". This doesn't make him pray to the Christian god of course, but maybe makes hime a theist.


And since the 8th dynamic is the URGE of the INDIVIDUAL to exist as God or the Supreme Being, and then later re-written to be "the allness of all" (was that an urge still?), then the presence of the 8th dynamic in LRH's writings is not proof that LRH believed in God, or that Scientology even recognizes that God exists.
This is a wrong conclusion. It would merely show that Hubbard's definition of god differs from the Christian definition of god. Wouldn't astonish me a bit. Nowhere does Hubbard say that "god" is a person (= personal god).

In the study tapes when he says "there is no big thetan", and that "prayers are going up to a myth" - is this evidence that he is an athiest, or that he believed in God?
I didn't find such a quote on the Study tapes.

Let's take the what's missing and look at that: If you were the founder of a religion, and you believed in God, don't you think you would have mentioned God more than LRH did?
Pure speculation. It's very nice of LRH not to describe god. You know exactly that people already rave against LRH's description of Xenu (= giving the PC false items, evaluating for the PC, Auditors' Code break etc etc).

Don't you think you would have written something on God - like an essay devoted to the subject - since Scientology is a religion, right?
Don't you think Jesus should have written an essay on past lives and actual processes to experience god? After all it's a religion, right?

That BC tape was the first time I had ever heard him come right out and deny the existence of God. If I recall correctly, it was within the context of his "research" where he had determined that "we are not all one".
I must have missed that. So if you find it you can PM me or answer in this thread. I will be very grateful.

But again, I do not expect you to believe me. I will continue on my search to find that tape. And when I do, I will rub it in everyone's face on the Internet who has ever doubted that I heard it.
Please!
 
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knn

Patron Meritorious
Maybe you meant this one:
Somebody who is very Christian, extremely Christian-you know, has to have permission to eat breakfast and has to have permission to eat lunch and then forgiven for the evening. You know, their life wholly turns on these little pivots-will sooner or later in one lifetime or another listen for a moment after the prayer, you see, or something, and the circuit they've been using hasn't-hasn't spoken for some time. They get no acknowledgment. And they realize they've been talking all this time to the Big Thetan, you see? And nobody's ever said a word. And they get madder than hell at the Catholic church, you know. And they start revolutions and burn popes and . . . It's marvelous.

SHSBC lecture "ARC BREAKS AND MISSED WITHHOLDS"
 

HolyCow

Patron with Honors
Believers of Stats

How about an actual # of OT's who have left, and maybe a % of OT's who have left. Oh yeah, hard to prove, huh. Well, I gotta ask, if DM can make up outlandish "stats", why can't you?! LOL

For Public, I'd say a letter from the bank stating, if you keep this up, you'll be bankrupt and homeless in __months/or years.

Seriously, though, this ESMB Board has all the info and links anyone would need. So if you could message all "churchies" to take a look on this site and employ the "Logic" tech... with some kind of appropriate LRH quote about "who is cutting your communication lines?" "has anyone told you not to look?" "is someone stopping you from finding out?" etc, ad nauseum.

:coolwink: :coolwink: :coolwink: :coolwink:
 

Nicki

Patron with Honors
It was ALL bizarre. And the reason people would care about what he did before Dianetics is because he made up shit that he practically won WWII single handedly, he was a bloodbrother, he was the youngest Eagle Scout, yada, yada, yada. He manufactored his whole history and it was thrown in our faces for years and years. They are still standing by all that crap even though it's all bullshit and most of it has been proven to be bullshit.

He was source. So if source lies about his history what else did he lie about?[/QUOTE]

Anyone have any info that shows that LRH actually wrote all that stuff about himself? I only remember publications put out or written by others about all of these things.
Nic
 

Nicki

Patron with Honors
What is the one information that would have gotten you out sooner out of Scientology/out of the Church?

In other words: What was the missing information that kept you longer in than necessary?

I am talking here about concrete information (= something that you could hand out to somebody), not "experience on staff" or "experience with tech" or "well, the whole internet thing"...

I am not talking necessarily about what DID FINALLY GET you out. But what WOULD HAVE gotten you out if you WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT.

I would have been gone long ago if I would have believed the truth about COB DM...at first in the 80's it was too bizarre for me to believe.
Nicki
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
How about an actual # of OT's who have left, and maybe a % of OT's who have left.
Since there is no stat of EXes (and I doubt there can be) I think the best stat (= the most representative) would be "New OT8s who didn't do the GAT version".
TruthAboutScientology.com reported that only 52 (of 1158) New OT8s did the GAT version. That means that 1106 of 1158 (= 95%) didn't redo the GAT version.
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/completeanalysis.html
and
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/otviii-twice.html

However that data is only until 2003. Moreover it takes YEARS to become a New OT8 thus we need definitely new data.

So if you could message all "churchies" to take a look on this site and employ the "Logic" tech... with some kind of appropriate LRH quote about "who is cutting your communication lines?" "has anyone told you not to look?" "is someone stopping you from finding out?" etc, ad nauseum.
= "are you PTS to your org/your ethics officer/your Miscavige?"
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I remember obtaining my PDC tapes circa 1980 and while listening to them, well into them, perhaps as far as lecture 25, I remember hearing LRH say 'THERE IS NO GOD', I thought I didn't hear it correctly. I rewound, and replay a few times..and yes that is what he said. I even remember the room I was in.

If I still had those I would re-listen to find that phrase. I am 100% sure it is there. Perhaps the BC tapes could be cross-referenced to see which ones are common to both..and that might narrow it down to which tape.

Warning, newer versions may have that phrase edited out, it was lower volume..but discernible.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I remember obtaining my PDC tapes circa 1980 and while listening to them, well into them, perhaps as far as lecture 25, I remember hearing LRH say 'THERE IS NO GOD', I thought I didn't hear it correctly. I rewound, and replay a few times..and yes that is what he said. I even remember the room I was in.

If I still had those I would re-listen to find that phrase. I am 100% sure it is there. Perhaps the BC tapes could be cross-referenced to see which ones are common to both..and that might narrow it down to which tape.

Warning, newer versions may have that phrase edited out, it was lower volume..but discernible.

Yeah, you don't really forget it once you hear it.

It changes the whole religion you are in, especially if one of your first questions to a Scientologist was, "Does Scientology believe in God"?

But the PDCs were given in 1951. The BC lectures run from 1959 to around 1964. Although there are other tapes on the BC, what is referred to as "BC tapes" were those lectures Ron gave to auditors at Saint Hill Manor from 1959 to 1964.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Anyone have any info that shows that LRH actually wrote all that stuff about himself? I only remember publications put out or written by others about all of these things.
Nic

Do you think he didn't write "My Philosophy"?

And then if he didn't, he was so out of it that he let it be published with his name on it?
 

HolyCow

Patron with Honors
95%, hey that's impressive

:hattip: :dance2: :dance2: :hug: :grouphug: :happydance: :happydance: Well, knn, you should know that in the early 70's, the OT levels were definitely chewed up and reemerged in no recognizable fashion, AND, all Prior OT's were ... Not. All invalidated and reduced to rubble. Again I submit that anyone reviewing the "OT Bridge" history will find that it regurtitates year after year.

Here's my question: For every PC, every Student, every Auditor, Every C/S, on and on, how many times did you "falsely attest"? How many certs do you have to trash? How many fortunes did you spend to trash them?
How many decades of OT levels "re-invention" does it take to realize Something?

Also, knn, I was wondering why you didn't address my points of humour. I admire your intention, but was hoping I could get you to laugh a little. Am I still naive?

I appreciate what you are doing. I would never be posting if I didn't hear about some of the newer atrocities, especially with the children and the elderly, and I'm with you about trying to get a message out. Correct data in itself is good, but I've found in dealing with people a little bit of humour and high-five attitude goes a long way.

:melodramatic:
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Also, knn, I was wondering why you didn't address my points of humour.
I would submerge humor in friendliness: Thus being friendly would also mean showing easiness and being humourous:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=226294&postcount=38
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=226302&postcount=41

As I pointed out there: Probably the most missing thing on staff is a normal + undemanding + friendly attitude.

Thus you could break Ronbotism by being normal (= human natural) + being friendly + helpful + easy + humorous.

I appreciate what you are doing. I would never be posting if I didn't hear about some of the newer atrocities, especially with the children and the elderly
Yeah, the children thing is sickening. Was the final thing that got me out and moving.

Maybe a culture is not as great as its dreams (LRH) , but as its treatment of children (KNN).

But... you cannot prove it to a Scientologist unless he sees it.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
I remember obtaining my PDC tapes circa 1980 and while listening to them, well into them, perhaps as far as lecture 25, I remember hearing LRH say 'THERE IS NO GOD', I thought I didn't hear it correctly. I rewound, and replay a few times..and yes that is what he said.
No, he said "There is no guard" (meaning a member of the Guardian Office). That's why they had to cut it out. At least this is my version of a conspiracy theory, since we are at it.

:whistling:
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Anyone have any info that shows that LRH actually wrote all that stuff about himself? I only remember publications put out or written by others about all of these things.
Nic

"ALL that stuff"?

You want info "that shows LRH actually wrote ALL that stuff"?

That's an old game played by Scientology since the 1960s. It's a disgusting and dishonest game.

Hubbard is a court acknowledged liar, many times over. He lied about himself, and about Scientology, and this is not the least in doubt, and hasn't been for decades.

Do you expect others - NOW - to spend time attempting to prove that to your satisfaction?

You must be kidding.

Google is your friend. The information is there. It's easier than ever to find.

IF you want to know.
 
He was source. So if source lies about his history what else did he lie about?

Anyone have any info that shows that LRH actually wrote all that stuff about himself? I only remember publications put out or written by others about all of these things.
Nic


Doesn't really matter, Nic. LRH allowed it to be published and kept it in print for around 30 years. :yes:

Either he wrote it, authorized it, or didn't have a clue what was in his own books. None of those conclusions redound to his favor in regards to credibility. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Nicki

Patron with Honors
Doesn't really matter, Nic. LRH allowed it to be published and kept it in print for around 30 years. :yes:

Either he wrote it, authorized it, or didn't have a clue what was in his own books. None of those conclusions redound to his favor in regards to credibility. :)


Mark A. Baker


True Mark...it's been a long time since I've read any of that info....There are so many promo pieces and stories ...over the years it's like...ok...so he was a man and did all these things...I was never really interested in all of that, anyway....
Most people are imperfect...heaven't met one yet that hasn't had a flaw or two. Y'know...especially us ignorant Scientologists.
(Thanks for simply answering without schrunching up yer face in a sneer. :coolwink: )
Nic
 
Most people are imperfect...heaven't met one yet that hasn't had a flaw or two.

I guess we'll never be able to meet then. :no:

I wouldn't want to destroy your stable datum. :)


(Thanks for simply answering without schrunching up yer face in a sneer. :coolwink: )
Nic

I rarely sneer at beautiful women. Although I've been known to direct disdain upon incitement at the odd loutish male. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 

Nicki

Patron with Honors
Well Veda,
Snarl and growl right back atcha.:grouch: :grouch:

I googled and found many things as well as this board....some find.
You're on the internet...should I believe everything you say? This message board is on the internet....and I'm getting to the point where I'm finding IT hard to believe.
I asked a damn question on a thread.
I think I'll stick to lurking...fewer claws and teeth..I got enough of that in the CofS...
I see that it carries right on out.
Crazy thing is...I didn't come out of the church with all that bitterness. Must have been too much good auditing.
Shame on me for haveing a few good experiences and not raging on about the injustices.
I handle things the way I see fit and don't need to get a bunch of agreement.
If you don't want to answer my question or you think it's stupid, just don't bother responding.
What is the real purpose of this board anyway? To find out who's more torked up about Scientology or anything having to do with it, or to find people who have also left and.......what ? You tell me.
Nic





"ALL that stuff"?

You want info "that shows LRH actually wrote ALL that stuff"?

That's an old game played by Scientology since the 1960s. It's a disgusting and dishonest game.

Hubbard is a court acknowledged liar, many times over. He lied about himself, and about Scientology, and this is not the least in doubt, and hasn't been for decades.

Do you expect others - NOW - to spend time attempting to prove that to your satisfaction?

You must be kidding.

Google is your friend. The information is there. It's easier than ever to find.

IF you want to know.
 
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