What is trolling?
- Thread starter Emma
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TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
I think that's pretty close. I admittedly am not up on all this history and back lines stuff as much as others but my sense is that one camp is POed that Mike doesn't go public with all of his insight into Scientology's dirty and illegal ops and they are POed at people like Karen who have formed an alliance with Mike to pursue this other more long view PR oriented strategy.
We are supposed to gang up on Mike and his supporters to get Mike to come clean. I think this rift has been evolving over a long time and has become very solidified into the respective camps and so neither camp has much involvement or influence in the other camp. ESMB is kind of in the middle and more susceptible to influence and therefor one of very few places where anything like this can be done.
How am I doing?
Veda
Sponsor
It's nonsensical pablum that has taken over many colleges and universities. That latest fad.
It seems to have crept into some of the "New Religious Movement" ("NRM") literature which is where you probably first bumped into it.
It's fashionable.
Cults such as Scientology have been trying to make the word "cult" disappear for a long time. For a while, Scientology Inc. - and friends - used "anti cult cult" to describe critics and dissenters. (The tragically crushed Marty Rathbun still uses "ASC" for "Anti-Scientology Cult.")
The problem is, that still uses the dreaded "cult" word.
"Tribalism," with its academically recognized - and fashionable - negative connotation, would be a desirable replacement. But it doesn't quite have the same impact, so it's tentative.
That's as close as I can come to how it is you've backed yourself into this latest exercise in silliness.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Veda
Sponsor
Sure.
"The tribalist Scientology haters are attacking a minority religion."
Scientology Inc. will try anything.
Veda
Sponsor
I'm not sure what the point of your schematic is, but it's misleading and ugly.
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
I had one of his books on my list to read:
The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mi...r&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar
But some of the comments I read in the reviews section (on Amazon) were a bit concerning, such as this:
<snip>
Haidt rejects rational thinking entirely. Indeed, he goes so far as to label those who engage in systematic rational thinking as "autistic" (pg 136). He labels modern, civilized countries as WEIRD (an insulting acronym he made up). He also has no interest in individual rights, such as America's Bill of Rights. Rather, he finds solace in the ignorance of impoverished villagers in northeast Brazil and primitive people of India who wipe their butts with their hands (really! see pg 122). He praises studies which show that ignorant people prefer collectivism and use their intuitions (prejudices/biases) when making moral decisions. Critical thinking? Rights? To Haidt, they're irrelevant. He's openly hostile to critical thinking. He disparages psychological studies of advanced ("WEIRD") countries as "statistical outliers" (pg 112).
Essentially, his ethics can be summarized as "cultural relativism", except that Western cultures are always wrong and those on the upper half of the bell curve (advanced, civilized societies) are WEIRD. Since humans are incapable of reason (according to Haidt), we can only navigate ethical and political decisions by intuitions. Whose intuitions should we follow, you ask? Well, that's unclear, although he does provide some helpful graphs of the intuitions of different political views towards the end of the book. I guess whoever shouts the loudest gets to make the rules.
<snip>
Full review: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-...iewpnt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0307455777#R2JXZAQF2WM66N
Bill
Gold Meritorious Patron
I never said I knew what you thought, I said I read what you wrote. And note, unlike you, I said "I think", where you claim "you believe".
And, of course, there's that post of yours where you ordered ESMB members to specifically go to "Outer Banks" and challenge Karen, et al. with specific questions.
Yeah, that.
I don't have to read your mind to know what you are writing.
For a greater context, consider the writings of ALANZO within the "biography" section of his blog:
"Alanzo first began writing about Scientology in the mid-1980’s on the Religions & Ethics section of the GEnie Bulletin Board using a 2400 baud modem. He’s been writing about Scientology, both in and out of the subject, since then.
When Alanzo left Scientology in 1999 and became a critic of them on the Internet, Scientology sought to redefine him as a “Suppressive Person” and an overall low-life scumbag.
Since waking up a few years ago, from the tribal environment of Anti-Scientology and applying critical thinking to that, too, AntiScientologists have sought to do the same.
Alanzo has seen the tribalism that makes Scientology a cult in Anti-Scientology, too – simply at a less intense volume.
Because of his long experience both in Scientology and in Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an assh#le* in these matters."
https://alanzosblog.com/category/alanzos-scientology-biography/
*(word modified)
"Alanzo first began writing about Scientology in the mid-1980’s on the Religions & Ethics section of the GEnie Bulletin Board using a 2400 baud modem. He’s been writing about Scientology, both in and out of the subject, since then.
When Alanzo left Scientology in 1999 and became a critic of them on the Internet, Scientology sought to redefine him as a “Suppressive Person” and an overall low-life scumbag.
Since waking up a few years ago, from the tribal environment of Anti-Scientology and applying critical thinking to that, too, AntiScientologists have sought to do the same.
Alanzo has seen the tribalism that makes Scientology a cult in Anti-Scientology, too – simply at a less intense volume.
Because of his long experience both in Scientology and in Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an assh#le* in these matters."
https://alanzosblog.com/category/alanzos-scientology-biography/
*(word modified)
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
When you read the book, you'll see this review is utter crap.
I'd love to see what you think of it.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
It's an invasion of Cultural Marxism under the guise getting Mike to cough up a crime.
We're using SATA as our Trojan Horse. Shhhh!
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
Actually I did watch the Jonathan Haidt video. And believe there is some truth in some of the things he says. But disagree with the conclusions your drawing from the information he presented.
For one thing, if you were wanting to characterize the members of ESMB as a "tribe", we most certainly are not an anti-scientologist tribe, or as Marty writes, part of the ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult). While many individuals here are strongly opposed to Scientology, what this group actually has in common is our opposition to the CoS. And some are not even opposed to that and would go back if Miscavige were removed from power and the organization were reformed, removing the abusive policies and practices.
But you are characterizing those of us here on ESMB as being part of the "Anti-Scientologist tribe". And that's false.
Also, those who are in what Haidt characterizes as a "tribe" (a group of people who feel connected to each other in a meaningful way, and share something in common that matters to them) while they most certainly may be influenced by those they associate with, that association is not the only determining factor of what attitudes and behaviors they adopt. While Haidt didn't say that, you act like he did, and you act as though a tribal membership you falsely claim we are in is the sole determining factor of our attitudes, beliefs, and behavior.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
That's really not necessary, and on the contrary is counter-productive.
If you disagree with someone you can attack their ideas and actions without having to attack them personally.
When you do make it personal and become an asshole than any points you make, even if valid, will not be accepted.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Thank you SO MUCH for making that distinction that it's MARTY who uses that term and not me.
And yes. Tribes can be defined by their enemies.
And yet, you said this just 2 sentences earlier:
"While many individuals here are strongly opposed to Scientology, what this group actually has in common is our opposition to the CoS.".
As for the less fanatical of you, you should remember that 90% of the people that ISIS kills are other Muslims because they are not Muslim enough.
The purity of your adherence to the tribal narrative will be the determining factor on who gets rewarded with status and prestige, and other tribal benefits for conformity.
And the social costs will be meted out to those heretics, like me, who question and choose, and [gasp] CRITICIZE the tribal narrative: Bannings. humiliation, vilification, shunning.
You do admit that in addition to the information control that is run in some AntiScn groups, AntiScn also practices shunning and humiliation, right? Not necessarily on a scale like Scientology, but they practice it nonetheless. They even practice fair game:
Leah Remini and Mike Rinder's AntiScientology Minions Fair Game Monique Rathbun's Business
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
I do really want to read the book as I saw it recommended by some others I know.
Unfortunately, I've got a pile of unread books on my desk now that are also demanding my attention. And they have the advantage of having already been paid for.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
Seriously, IMO, only one question remains:
Regarding the whole scientology scene is there tribalism???
To answer this question I think we must look for people who act according to tribal culture:
"who attack their perceived ennemies ( either individuals or communities) as targets to be destroyed, openly or secretly , as for example OSA, and other of similar mindset, would do"
Attack, divide, smear, destroy, infiltrate, all part of a tribal behavior to protect the tribe and accomplish it's goal to gain territory (for example: public opinion, media coverage, internet groups compliance...)
Jeez
I am tired just to name it..
are they providing vitamins and proteins for free???
Regarding the whole scientology scene is there tribalism???
To answer this question I think we must look for people who act according to tribal culture:
"who attack their perceived ennemies ( either individuals or communities) as targets to be destroyed, openly or secretly , as for example OSA, and other of similar mindset, would do"
Attack, divide, smear, destroy, infiltrate, all part of a tribal behavior to protect the tribe and accomplish it's goal to gain territory (for example: public opinion, media coverage, internet groups compliance...)
Jeez
I am tired just to name it..
are they providing vitamins and proteins for free???
Last edited:
He-man
Hero extraordinary
Ok. I always thought that using the term "cultural Marxism" was misleading and ugly, but everyone to his own.
The reason I posted a link to rational wikis page on "cultural Marxism" is because I think it is very important to understand where that term comes from when it is being used in discussions on the internet. I feel that branding people, social constructs, ideas or whatever as "cultural Marxism" to be at the very least a gross exaggeration of reality. I know the failing is mine, I will always have an issue with that. I do apologize if that comes across as overtly rude.
I added the schematics because I find it funny and it is a cute tribute to Marx's obsession over social triangles and how it reflects on how "cultural Marxism" is being perceived. I don't wish to add it, but I feel that I must, it is a misconceived perception because "social Marxism" doesn't really exist.
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