What is trolling?

[Glenda]

Gotta disagree here. Human being are inherently tribal. Man cannot survive alone.

Do a google search on it. The recognition of humans being tribal is shown to be everywhere. It's not shameful, it's how we survived all through time. A group gives you shared shelter, shared gathering & hunting of food, shared responsibility of child rearing, a group with shared nationalism or blood in times of war. Of course there is individuality amongst members of a tribe, but the greater pull is the group, because man cannot survive alone.

In the hunter gatherer days, if you were cast out of your tribe it meant certain death, unless you found a new tribe. The urge toward survival trumps individualism.

If a man wants to become a politician he has to align himself with a group, even if he doesn't really share the groups ideas i.e Bernie Sanders and the Democrats, Donald Trump and the Republicans. When was the last time an independent became President?

Yep. Humans are wired to be social and dependent for survival. There are loads of studies on how loneliness is detrimental to health, etc. Core wounds in humans tend to be about rejection and abandonment. We are the least developed species at birth and are completely dependent on caregivers to survive. This sets up the need for others throughout life. Developing, and retaining, a healthy sense of self is often a very challenging thing for humans because of this need for other humans to survive. Personally I think human design is bloody complicated.

Humans are not designed and/or conditioned right from the start to be individuals. We need and desire each other for loads of things whether we are aware of it or not.

 

[Alanzo]

Yep. Humans are wired to be social and dependent for survival. There are loads of studies on how loneliness is detrimental to health, etc. Core wounds in humans tend to be about rejection and abandonment. We are the least developed species at birth and are completely dependent on caregivers to survive. This sets up the need for others throughout life. Developing, and retaining, a healthy sense of self is often a very challenging thing for humans because of this need for other humans to survive. Personally I think human design is bloody complicated.

Humans are not designed and/or conditioned right from the start to be individuals. We need and desire each other for loads of things whether we are aware of it or not.

Holy crap.

Whoever this "Glenda" entity is, she came after I was banned from this board.

I think I love her.

 

[lotus]

human beings = gregarious beings who like to be part of groups and communities that are more or less organized.(social bounding)

Tribalism= only one way of practicing social bounding. Usually in smaller groups, tightly organized in which a unique thought and behavior is expected by the leaders. People must comply and obey to the tribe rules and way of living and are loyal in fighting ennemies to protect their group, territory and belongings.

Both must no be confused.
A gregarious being is not necessarily tribal.

 

[Alanzo]

humain being= gregarious beings who like to be part of groups and communities that are more or less organized.

Tribalism= only one way of practicing social bounding. Usually in smaller groups, tightly organized in which a unique thought and behavior is expected by the leaders. People must comply and obey to the tribe rules and way of living.

Both must no be confused.
A gregarious being is not necessarily tribal.

True.

 

[programmer_guy]

Back to the thread topic:

I am surprised that no indie Scientologists here have equated "trolling" with "3rd partying".

 

[He-man]

Back to the thread topic:

I am surprised that no indie Scientologists here have equated "trolling" with "3rd partying".

Me too actually! I was thinking about that yesterday. I suspect that the indians here on ESMB have been out in the normal world for so long now that the lingo is being scrubbed out more and more. Maybe?

 

[Veda]

Gotta disagree here. Humans being are inherently tribal. Man cannot survive alone.

Do a google search on it. The recognition of humans being tribal is shown to be everywhere. It's not shameful,

-snip-

From what I've seen, "tribal," as popularly used, is a put down.

At the same time, there seems to be a desire by some in academia to return humans to an earlier primitive state (with emphasis on race, "tribe," group identity of the primordial forest variety). The accomplishments of great men, with great minds, are minimized or shunned.

Some universities are removing the study (and appreciation) of great scientists, mathematicians, authors, explorers, etc., from the curriculum because of their race or ethnicity ("tribe"?). For example, I've read where Shakespeare is no longer studied as part of English literature at some schools. (He, apparently, belonged to a currently shunned "tribe.")

There are fads sweeping through academia, and the general population, with particular concern about being trendy and "with it." Personally, I think it's rather silly.

But it's nothing new. Fads, mass hysteria, etc., have always existed. Sometimes these are manufactured.

World War 1 was an example. Ivy Lee, the founder of modern Public Relations (public opinion manipulation) is generally credited with creating the mindset in the American population where young men happily volunteered to march off to a European war, which was just another in a long series of (usually unnecessary) European wars. It made no sense, but with slogans like "The war to end all wars," and "Make the world safe for democracy," the crowds cheered and eagerly sent their sons to be cannon fodder in a feud between the English King and his cousin the German Kaiser.

WW 1, and its aftermath, then created the conditions that lead to WW2. and also gave us Hitler and Stalin and, ultimately, Mao.

And here we are.

But this is just my impression.

Back to the topic of "tribalism" as currently used, mostly, it seems, in political (or quasi political) dialogue.

Here's a recent post by Alanzo:

"The truth is never tribal" ???

The truth has no sides.

And the truth is never tribal.

Never.

 

[Type4_PTS]

From what I've seen, "tribal," as popularly used, is a put down.

This line made me curious to go to the Urban Dictionary and look at some of the definitions. There's a couple there that are amusing:







Many of us who left the CoS were grateful to find groups such as ESMB because there were others here who understood our experiences. It was difficult to get a never-in person to really understand.

But I can't recall a time during my years here when all of us shared the same opinion on anything. Our views on David Miscavige may have come the closest in that regard, but even in that, while I doubt any of us saw him as a good guy, there were different thoughts as to why he acted the way he did.

We are a community here but we don't all share all the same opinions and/or beliefs about Scientology or anything else. There's a wide spectrum of beliefs and opinions on everything. When anyone comes here and begins addressing us as though we have no individual identity, kind of like the Borg, who are linked to a hive mind, it's not going to end well.

 

[Alanzo]

Obviously, no one watched the video from Jonathan Haidt. When you ask me what I mean by the word tribal it's in that video. If you want to know, then there it is.

For more about my views regarding the problems with tribalism, this video lays it out well.

 

[Bill]

Obviously, no one watched the video from Jonathan Haidt. When you ask me what I mean by the word tribal it's in that video. If you want to know, then there it is.

For more about my views regarding the problems with tribalism, this video lays it out well.

I think I've got it. From the very first thread Alanzo posted when he returned, it felt like there was an agenda, something important he wanted to do here. This thing about "tribes" and "tribal leaders" and "anti-cult", "anti-Scientologists" and "Outer Banks" and the "right" kind of skepticism, the attacks around Karen, Jeffrey and Tony ... Alanzo kept hammering and hammering.

I think I know what has been burning in Alanzo's soul. I think I know the agenda.

You want us to fight with Karen, et al., on your behalf.

OK. Got it.

Not going to do that, but I now understand what you want.

 

[He-man]

I think I've got it. From the very first thread Alanzo posted when he returned, it felt like there was an agenda, something important he wanted to do here. This thing about "tribes" and "tribal leaders" and "anti-cult", "anti-Scientologists" and "Outer Banks" and the "right" kind of skepticism, the attacks around Karen, Jeffrey and Tony ... Alanzo kept hammering and hammering.

I think I know what has been burning in Alanzo's soul. I think I know the agenda.

You want us to fight with Karen, et al., on your behalf.

OK. Got it.

Not going to do that, but I now understand what you want.

Oh is that what he is doing? I just thought he was on a crusade.

 

[AD1950]

I think I've got it. From the very first thread Alanzo posted when he returned, it felt like there was an agenda, something important he wanted to do here. This thing about "tribes" and "tribal leaders" and "anti-cult", "anti-Scientologists" and "Outer Banks" and the "right" kind of skepticism, the attacks around Karen, Jeffrey and Tony ... Alanzo kept hammering and hammering.

I think I know what has been burning in Alanzo's soul. I think I know the agenda.

You want us to fight with Karen, et al., on your behalf.

OK. Got it.

Not going to do that, but I now understand what you want.

So, the "answer" then, would be to "troll" ALANZO?

This would seem to be a violation of some policy.

Check out the red volumes: It is written there will be no joking or degrading, and no questioning of your leader.

Time to declare your crimes, and escort offenders to RPF.

Keep ESMB working.

 

[Enthetan]

Obviously, no one watched the video from Jonathan Haidt. When you ask me what I mean by the word tribal it's in that video. If you want to know, then there it is.

For more about my views regarding the problems with tribalism, this video lays it out well.

I've watched your video's first couple of minutes, at the point where he defines tribe, and he seems to miss a very important aspect.

The purpose of being in a tribe is to have allies in the task of survival in a hostile environment.

 

[He-man]

Actually, here is what I think know.

Karens actions speak for her own, Alanzo knows that, everyone knows that.Alanzo also knows how unpopular he is(for proof, read the unpopular thread) on this board after his previous drama.
He knows exactly how tribalized we are(rather thent traumatized) and that our reaction towards his ideas will be instant rejection. He knows this! Everyone knows this!

No it is obviously an elaborate scheme by Karen to increase her popularity on this board, so that she can come back and take it over from Emma. We all know of the drama between these two MAJOR players behind the scenes.

Karen has previously admitted to paying money to people to get stuff she wanted. Therefore, it is obvious to me that Alanzo is in her pocketings.

That is exactly what is happening and you should all believe me because I am a very knowledgable poster with loads of likes and stuff in my belt. Also, because I am extremely experienced and has seen it all go down.

I'm telling you. Shit went down.

Shit went down man.

 

[Alanzo]

I think I've got it. From the very first thread Alanzo posted when he returned, it felt like there was an agenda, something important he wanted to do here. This thing about "tribes" and "tribal leaders" and "anti-cult", "anti-Scientologists" and "Outer Banks" and the "right" kind of skepticism, the attacks around Karen, Jeffrey and Tony ... Alanzo kept hammering and hammering.

I think I know what has been burning in Alanzo's soul. I think I know the agenda.

You want us to fight with Karen, et al., on your behalf.

OK. Got it.

Not going to do that, but I now understand what you want.

So hilarious. You constantly accuse me of thinking I can read minds.

And now you are positive you've read mine.

 

[Alanzo]

I've watched your video's first couple of minutes, at the point where he defines tribe, and he seems to miss a very important aspect.

The purpose of being in a tribe is to have allies in the task of survival in a hostile environment.

Good point. Are you saying that Haidt misses that point?

In his book, he certainly doesn't. His book is fantastic. Moral psychology. He described moral foundations on which we base our moral decision making.

Funny as hell experiments he did about people's moral decisions. Just hilarious.

 

[Veda]

Obviously, no one watched the video from Jonathan Haidt. When you ask me what I mean by the word tribal it's in that video. If you want to know, then there it is.

For more about my views regarding the problems with tribalism, this video lays it out well.

This video appears is to be a soft and gentle lead in to "cultural Marxism," which sees "culture as a main driving force for inequality in the Western world."

The problem with that is that all cultures are not equal. Some are preferable to others.

Not interested in joining cultural Marxism's proposed utopia - and its very controlling (authoritarian) culture - so, no thank you.

As for treating every human being as an individual and with humanity, that's an ideal that's been around for a long time. I'm all for that, without the re-packaged Marxism.

Returning to the subject of Scientology, the term "tribalism" - as a negative - is unnecessary.

There's a perfectly good term for Scientology Inc, and that's CULT.

 

[lotus]

I think I've got it. From the very first thread Alanzo posted when he returned, it felt like there was an agenda, something important he wanted to do here. This thing about "tribes" and "tribal leaders" and "anti-cult", "anti-Scientologists" and "Outer Banks" and the "right" kind of skepticism, the attacks around Karen, Jeffrey and Tony ... Alanzo kept hammering and hammering.

I think I know what has been burning in Alanzo's soul. I think I know the agenda.

You want us to fight with Karen, et al., on your behalf.

OK. Got it.

Not going to do that, but I now understand what you want.

I carry quite the same impression.
Shall this proof the be true,

we would find ourselve part of a TRIBAL war
which it is my understanding that most ESMBers refuse to be part of:

Out of the Scn cult = out of tribal mindsets!

 

[He-man]

For those unaware of the Cultural Marxism theme that circles around in the alternative universe of the right: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

I think Scientologists also have a "Tribal" world view. They absolutely and completely perceive non-Scientologists as following group think. Because wogs have not been audited they are still under the influence of the subconscious reactive mind and other things like whole track alien implants and even alien spirits. The complete list of things Scientologists consider as making non-Scientologists unable to make rational individual decisions is long and complicated. The list of derogatory euphemisms that further characterize non-Scientologists as being inferior to Scientologists because of this inability to make rational decisions is also long and complicated but together this creates a philosophy that makes it impossible for them to understand non-Scientologists while letting them think they know more about non-Scientologists than non-Scientologists themselves.

By doggedly adhering to this doctrine they grossly underestimated Emma, Karen, Mike and the many other exes who have spoken out and made huge miscalculations that have all but destroyed them. The failures of thinking this way should be obvious to anyone but instead of self-reflecting and changing their operating basis they double down on their need for Scientologists to think this way. Their leader(s) are motivated to keep members from doubting the infallibility of Hubbard, the doctrine and management but I think more importantly they need something to explain the rejection of their core principles by so many people who have intimate knowledge and experience about those core principles and yet because of that knowledge and experience still reject it.

This concept of Tribe started in the 70s around the same time Cloward & Piven formulated the strategy of radically transforming America into a socialist country by deliberately overwhelming it's welfare system. They come from the same mindset of Marxist social science and anthropology intelligentsia. In the US the ratio of Democrat to Republican professors is greater than 10 to 1. I expect in other more socialist countries the ratio of left to right orientation amongst professorships is much higher, possibly 50 to 1. Statistically it is a perfect example of bias. If this was a sound doctrine it should have equal support regardless of political orientation. For all practical purposes Trump is the first independent president because many of the people who voted for him were equally disappointed by the Democrat Party and the Republican Party deep state. Both had sold out Americans to special interests. We don't see this concept of people as Tribe coming from the people who voted for Trump. We see it coming from the left who need some way of explaining the rejection of their ideals and the Republican deep state whose nice gig Trump upset.

The best lies contain an element of truth and it is true that humans evolved as a group oriented species for millions of years. It isn't realistic to expect that there won't be deeply ingrained instincts based on that. I think the phenomenon of stockholming is a prime example of how people instinctively know how to exploit group behavior because they themselves are human. But we are much more than that now. Americans place a very high value on independence. American culture isn't based on old world Marxism. That really is tribal and I can understand how they would give so much credence to a philosophy based on the concept of Tribe. They literally belong to a tribe that has as it's most cohesive ideal being a Tribe. LRH said something to the effect that as we see ourselves we see other people. Another cleverism to draw you in but it kind of works. I see myself as a capable individual and I see other people the same way and this makes it impossible for me to attribute my and other people's thinking to herd mentality that doesn't deserve respect. I don't need another guru to tell me I'm operating on primal instinct and only they know how to understand my thinking and have the solution to correct thinking.

Tribe is used to explain away the reason people no longer rely on the main stream media for their information. The MSM, another organization that has a difficult time with rejection. If anything we are becoming less tribal because they have less of a monopoly on the sources of information. This forum itself stands as evidence of that. Because I am here I am not on a news channel or website. This, Twitter, and many other things are crashing their eyeball stats and they know it. But because people don't go where they want them to go they are considered a "basket of deplorables" - Hillary's equivalent to DBs, SPs and PTSes.

What she is really describing is the two Americas. One America is mostly large population centers that rely more on government services. Those services are provided by unions and unions dominate the politics there more than the people. The other America is mostly rural. They aren't dominated by unions and don't want to be. Being pro-union is correct tribal thinking and being anti-union is incorrect tribal thinking that must be corrected. There are other factors but if we are going to define the single largest rift in American culture it is political union influence or lack of influence. The Marxist professors pushing Tribal doctrine are pro-union and heavily against anyone who isn't pro-union so this bias is reflected in the doctrine.

The reality in the US is that without dual state and federal legislatures and without dual Constitutions and the Electoral College to keep 7 or 9 more populated coastal states from telling the rest of the country how to live - it would be much easier to transform America into a Marxist state. Marxists hate that and to transform the country they need people to think of traditional American nationalism as something primitive, mindless and obsolete while Marxist nationalism is the correct updated version of Tribe.

So if Scientology's insistence on relying upon these kinds of distorted world views resulted in them being self-defeating then I have to ask myself why should I want all these socialist professors to change their thinking? Maybe it serves a better purpose to have them think that people are incapable of individual thought so they continue to underestimate and miscalculate. And if Alanzo wants to perceive me that way why should I try to change his mind? If I deliberately wanted to troll Alanzo with misinformation so that he thinks of me in a way that I am not that would be a whole lot of work. If he already thinks of me that way why should I work so hard to undo it?

So yes, Alanzo! I admit it - I am a member of a Tribe and all my thinking is inherently biased and I blindly follow my leaders without asking unpopular questions and I reeally neeed you to get my head straight around all this.