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Well I guess RogerB ran away.

Or maybe the BTs got him.

I don't know why he wanted to distort the context of my post.

He posted when I said the word "problem" but he refused to post any of the six posts of mine before that one when I discussed the problem or any of then nearly fifteen posts of others also involved with the discussion.

So I don't know what his game is.

As far as the problem goes, the Moderator, who was also involved with the discussion, came up with a solution an implemented it.

I don't know what RogerB's game is, but I think he was trying to make me, and possibly a few others, look foolish.

Tsk, Tsk, RogerB. Shame on you.

You shouldn't go around inventing problems.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Re: Want to Ignore this Thread?

What context is he distorting? I can't see it.

The context of the problem that was being discussed.

Go back and read the posts from about #75 to #96.

Even the moderator was involved.

He made it look like and said that I didn't say what the problem was while, in fact, he ignored six previous posts of mine and about fifteen others of other people where the problem was discussed.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Free Being Me

This is for you OldAuditor, including your potential and actual 'clients' as well as your circle of hubbardite associates. I wish you and them well. :)

Coming Out Of Scientology

8 Steps Out Of Scientology
Charismatic Authority
Dangerous Cult Leaders
Identifying Marks Of An Exploitive, Abusive Group
Jon Atack - Why It’s So Hard To Recover From Scientology
Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's Perspective
Profile Of A Sociopath - Cult Leaders
The Scientological Onion

Steve Hassan - Freedom Of Mind
Mind Control – The BITE Model


Combatting Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery From Destructive Cults


Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs


Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves
Books On Cult Mind Control

Cult Recovery Tools

Finding a Therapist Who Can Help You Heal
5 Things to Do When You Feel Insecure
CCI Self Help Modules
Cognitive Reframing
Cognitive Reframing - Change Your Thinking
Cognitive Restructuring
Cognitive Restructuring Aids
Cognitive Theory and Addiction (Thoughts, Beliefs, Expectations)
Emotional Intelligence
Emotional Wellness
Facing Your Feelings
Fear, Obligation, and Guilt (FOG)
Finding Time for Truly Nurturing Yourself
Healing Emotional and Psychological Trauma
Hierarchy of Needs - Abraham Maslow
New to Mindfulness? How to Get Started
Personal Boundaries
Personal Core Values And Positive Beliefs
Personal Core Values List
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Worksheets & Handouts
Psychology Tools - Free Worksheet Downloads And Therapy Resources
Self-Compassion, A Healthier Way of Relating to Yourself (Videos at link)
Self Development Recovery Techniques
Self-Esteem Improvement
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/SE_Module 6_July 05.pdf
Self Soothe - Distress Tolerance Strategies
The Path To Unconditional Self Acceptance
The Power of Patience
The 5 Stages Of Loss And Grief
Traumatic Bonding
Emotional Attachments in Abusive Relationships: A Test of Traumatic Bonding Theory - PDF (Dutton and Painter)

Brené Brown - Listening To Shame (TED Talk)

Brené Brown: The Power Of Vulnerability (TED Talk)

Jack Kornfield - Compassion

Jack Kornfield - The Ancient Heart Of Forgiveness

Karla McLaren - The Language Of Emotions

Karla McLaren - The Art Of Empathy, Part 1

Karla McLaren - The Art Of Empathy, Part 2

Kristin Neff - The Space Between Self-Esteem and Self Compassion

Eckhart Tolle - Conversations On Compassion

Informative Sites

Ex-Scientologist Message Board
Ex-Scientology Kids
Ex-Sea Org
Mark Bunker - YouTube
Operation Clambake
Reaching For The Tipping Point
Surviving Scientology - YouTube
The Underground Bunker
Tory Speaking Freely - YouTube
Why We Protest
World Cult Watch

Ex-Scientology Books
(Available at libraries and other outlets)

A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientology, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed - Jon Atack
Bare-faced Messiah: True Story of L.Ron Hubbard - Russell Miller
Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape - Jenna Miscavige
Blown for Good: Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology - Marc Headley
Counterfeit Dreams: One Man's Journey Into and Out of the World of Scientology - Jefferson Hawkins
Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief - Lawrence Wright
Inside Scientology: The Story of America's Most Secretive Religion - Janet Reitman
L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman - Bent Corydon
My Billion Year Contract: Memoir of a Former Scientologist - Nancy Many
Scientology: Abuse At the Top - Amy Scobee
The Church of Fear: Inside The Weird World of Scientology - John Sweeney
The Complex: An Insider Exposes the Covert World of the Church of Scientology - John Duignan
The Scandal of Scientology - Paulette Cooper

Cult Recovery Concepts To Contrast

Cognitive Bias
Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Distortion
Coping (psychology)
Critical thinking
Dissociation (psychology)
Double Bind
Double Standard
Emotional Blackmail
Emotional Detachment
False Dilemma
Identity (social science)
Loaded Language
Locus Of Control
Love Bombing
Magical Thinking
Milieu Control
Operant Conditioning
Peer Pressure
Psychological Abuse
Psychological Manipulation
Self-Serving Bias
Social Isolation
Stockholm Syndrome
Wishful Thinking

*Hubbard was a narcissistic sociopathic psychopath with a very shrewd adroit grasp of manipulative psychology that he vigorously incorporated into $cientology (that's what $cientology is, a mind control cult instilling hubbard's cultist identity upon his followers), here's a collective previous post on manipulation.

Observable Behaviors & Tools Used By Manipulators (Collected Posts)

Sociopath (Antisocial personality disorder)
Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental condition in which a person's ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are dysfunctional — and destructive. People with antisocial personality disorder typically have no regard for right and wrong and often disregard the rights, wishes and feelings of others.

Those with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others either harshly or with callous indifference. They may often violate the law, landing in frequent trouble, yet they show no guilt or remorse. They may lie, behave violently or impulsively, and have problems with drug and alcohol use. These characteristics typically make people with antisocial personality disorder unable to fulfill responsibilities related to family, work or school.

  • Disregard for right and wrong
  • Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
  • Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
  • Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
  • Recurring difficulties with the law
  • Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
  • Child abuse or neglect
  • Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
  • Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
  • Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
  • Poor or abusive relationships
  • Irresponsible work behavior
  • Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior

A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

Narcissism is a term that originated with Narcissus in Greek mythology who fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water. Currently it is used to describe the pursuit of gratification from vanity, or egotistic admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, that derive from arrogant pride.

  • An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
  • Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
  • A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
  • Difficulty with empathy
  • Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
  • Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
  • Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
  • Haughty body language
  • Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
  • Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
  • Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
  • Pretending to be more important than they really are
  • Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
  • Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
  • Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
  • Denial of remorse and gratitude

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
(Click link for full article)

Traumatic Bonding
Traumatic bonding is “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.” (Dutton & Painter, 1981). Several conditions have been identified that must be present for a traumatic bond to occur.

–(1). There must be an imbalance of power, with one person more in control of key aspects of the relationship, such as setting themselves up as the “authority” through such things as controlling the finances, or making most of the relationship decisions, or using threats and intimidations, so the relationship has become lopsided.

–(2). The abusive behavior is sporadic in nature. It is characterized by intermittent reinforcement, which means there is the alternating of highly intense positives (such as intense kindness or affection) and the negatives of the abusive behavior.

–(3). The victim engages in denial of the abuse for emotional self- protection. In severe abuse (this can be psychological or physical), one form of psychological protection strategy is dissociation, where the victim experiences the abuse as if it is not happening to them, but as if they are outside their body watching the scene unfold (like watching a movie). Dissociative states allow the victim to compartmentalize the abusive aspects of the relationship in order to focus on the positive aspects.

The use of denial and distancing oneself from the abuse are forms of what is called cognitive dissonance. In abusive relationships this means that what is happening to the victim is so horrible, so far removed from their thoughts and expectations of the world, that it is “dissonant” or “out of tune” or “at odds” with their pre-existing expectations and reality.

Since the victim feels powerless to change the situation, they rely on emotional strategies to try to make it less dissonant, to try to somehow make it fit. To cope with the contradicting behaviors of the abuser, and to survive the abuse, the person literally has to change how they perceive reality.

Studies also show a person is more loyal and committed to a person or situation that is difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating, and the more the victim has invested in the relationship, the more they need to justify their position. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful “self-preservation” mechanism which can completely distort and override the truth, with the victim developing a tolerance for the abuse and “normalizing” the abusers behavior, despite evidence to the contrary.

–(4). The victim masks that the abuse is happening, may not have admitted it to anyone, not even themselves.

Trauma bonding makes it easier for a victim to survive within the relationship, but it severely undermines the victims self-structures, undermining their ability to accurately evaluate danger, and impairs their ability to perceive of alternatives to the situation.

Once a trauma bond is established it becomes extremely difficult for the victim to break free of the relationship. The way humans respond to trauma is thought to have a biological basis and reactions to trauma was first described a century ago, with the term “railroad spine” being used. Another term used has been “shell shocked”.

Victims overwhelmed with terror suffer from an overload of their system, and to be able to function they must distort reality. They often shut down emotionally, and sometimes later describe themselves as having felt “robotic”, intellectually knowing what happened, but feeling frozen or numb and unable to take action. A victim must feel safe and out of “survival mode” before they will be able to make cognitive changes.

Many victims feel the compulsion to tell and retell the events of the trauma in an attempt to come to terms with what happened to them and to try to integrate it, reaching out to others for contact, safety, and stability. Other victims react in an opposite manner, withdrawing into a shell of self-imposed isolation. The trauma bond can persist even after the victim leaves the relationship, with it sometimes taking months, or even years, for them to completely break the bond.

Emotional Attachments in Abusive Relationships: A Test of Traumatic Bonding Theory - PDF (Dutton and Painter)


Fear, Obligation, and Guilt (FOG) in Relationships
According to Susan Forward, Ph.D. (Forward and Frazier 1997), emotional blackmail is a “powerful form of manipulation in which people close to us threaten, directly or indirectly, to punish us if we don’t do what they want." The main tool of the trade, Forward says, is FOG: fear, obligation, and guilt.

People with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder may use emotional blackmail because it’s the best or the only way they know to get what they want or need. Unwilling or unable to make a direct request, FOG becomes the lever of choice to those who suffer from low self-esteem and have difficulty setting personal limits and stating what they want. Victims capitulate because they often possess these same qualities. And perpetrators use whatever works again and again. (Full article at link)

Out of the FOG - What is FOG
FOG - Fear, Obligation & Guilt - The acronym FOG, for Fear, Obligation and Guilt, was first coined by Susan Forward & Donna Frazier in Emotional Blackmail and describes feelings that a person often has when in a relationship with someone who suffers from a personality disorder. (Full article at link)

Covert Emotional Manipulation Tactics

Covert emotional manipulation tactics are underhanded methods of control. Emotional manipulation methodically wears down your sense of self-worth, self-confidence, self-concept and trust in your own perceptions. At its worst, you can lose all sense of self and your personal values.

Positive Reinforcement: Praise, flattery, adoration, attention, affection, gifts, superficial sympathy (crocodile tears), superficial charm, recognition, appreciation, intense sex, and declarations of once-in-a-lifetime love. When all of these are present continually at the beginning of the relationship with no negative behavior in sight, it’s called “love-bombing,” and it’s designed to hook us deeply and bond us tightly to our abuser.

Intermittent positive reinforcement: This is a very effective manipulation tactic, one abusers use to great effect. Intermittent positive reinforcement occurs when your relationship goes from nonstop positive reinforcement to only getting attention, appreciation, praise, adoration, declarations of love, etc. once in a while, on a random basis. This will create a climate of doubt, fear and anxiety. You’ll know he’s withdrawing and you’ll fear you’re losing him, but he’ll deny it. This replays over and over until you’re riding and emotional roller coaster, with no way to stop the ride and get off. S/He is doing this on purpose to increase his power and control over you and to make you even more desperate for his love. You have become the proverbial lab rat frantically pushing the lever for a randomly dispensed treat. The rat thinks of nothing else, and neither will you. The bond can become even stronger during this phase, believe it or not. It’s a well-known psychological phenomenon known as traumatic bonding.

Negative reinforcement: The manipulator stops performing a negative behavior (such as giving you the silent treatment) when you comply with his demands.
Not allowing negative emotion: The victim is typically chastised for emotional behavior. The focus is put on the emotional upset itself, not the cause behind it (which conveniently takes the focus off of him). He refuses to hear what it is she wants to talk about. The only subject is her emotion, which is unacceptable; in fact, it’s an issue she needs to work on, and one he finds unattractive.The silent treatment usually follows, which increases her frustration at not being able to express her thoughts and feelings.

Indirect aggressive abuse: Name-calling is direct and obvious, but an underhanded way to make it much less obvious is to drop the angry tone of voice that usually accompanies it, and disguise the insult as teaching, helping, giving advice, or offering solutions. It appears to be a sincere attempt to help, but it’s actually an attempt to belittle, control and demean you, and you will sense this.

Manipulators share intimate information about themselves, their lives and families early on to create a false sense of intimacy. You’ll automatically feel obliged or free to respond, and afterward you’ll trust him more and feel closer to him. Later, you’ll find out most of what he disclosed wasn’t true, and that he’ll use everything you told him about yourself to manipulate you or hurt you.

Triangulation: This is a common and effective tactic of a psychopath’s covert emotional manipulation. The manipulator introduces other women into the relationship in any way he can — by talking about a woman at work, talking about his ex girlfriends, flirting with other women in front of you, or comparing you unfavorably to another woman — just to hurt you, knock you off balance and make you jealous. In a normal relationship, a man will go out of his way to prove he’s trustworthy. The manipulator does just the opposite, and he enjoys watching your pain and angst. He is usually grooming his next target, who he conveniently uses to manipulate you devalue you.

Blaming the victim: This tactic is a powerful means of putting the victim on the defense while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent of the abuser. This usually happens when she questions him about something he wants to hide (such as his involvement with another woman). The victim finds herself put in the defensive mode, and she can’t win. He tells her that her concerns are rooted in her problem with “insecurity” and have nothing to do with his behavior or with reality, and that he finds her insecurity very unattractive. Since this is very unpleasant she learns not to question him, and silently puts up with his bad behavior in the future.

The manipulator will make carefully chosen insinuating comments to evoke an uncomfortable emotional response or even several responses at once. He knows your weaknesses and your hot-buttons, and he will enjoy dropping a bomb like this and watching the fallout. If someone says something that has multiple negative meanings and causes negative emotions while leaving you flummoxed and without a meaningful response, you’ve experienced it.

Empty words: The abuser can turn on the charm and tell you exactly what you want to hear: “I love you,” “you’re so special to me,” “you’re so important to me,” etc. The problem is they are just words, backed up by nothing. Filling your need for approval, validation, and reassurance with these empty words gives him incredible power over you.

Denying/ Invalidating reality: Invalidating distorts or undermines the victim’s perceptions of their world. Invalidating occurs when the abuser refuses or will not acknowledge reality. For example, if the victim confronts the abuser about an incident of name calling, the abuser may insist, “I never said that,” “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” The same as gaslighting, really, a tactic which is explained below.

Minimizing: The manipulator will tell you you’re making a big deal out of nothing or that you’re “exaggerating” when you confront him with something he’s done.

Withholding: Includes refusing to communicate, refusing to listen, and using emotionally withdrawal as punishment. This is commonly called the “silent treatment.”

Lying: It’s often difficult to know when someone’s lying, but psychopaths are pathological liars who will say anything to get what they want. You may notice they lie so much they can’t keep the details straight. If you question them, they revert to denial.

Lies of omission: A more subtle form of lying where a truth is left out if it’s not convenient.

Gaslighting: An especially frustrating manipulation tactic where you know you heard him say something or saw him do something but when you confront him, he simply denies it. It seems obvious enough but if it’s repeated often, victims can begin to question their “version” of reality. We also want to believe whatever it was didn’t happen, so we may let this absurdity slip by. I forget who said “words are more real than reality,” but that sums it up.

Projecting the Blame: Nothing is ever a psychopath’s fault, and he will always find some crafty way to find a scapegoat
Diversion and Evasion: When you ask the psychopath a question, instead of answering it he may use diversion (steering the conversation to another topic) or evasion (giving an irrelevant, vague and often rambling response).

Selective forgetting: The manipulator pretends he forgot something important he once said. If you feel the need to use a tape recorder when speaking with someone, covert emotional manipulation is at play.

Refusing to take responsibility for his behavior, for the relationship or for your reactions to it.

Attempts to turn the tables and make you look like the abuser: These skilled manipulators have an arsenal of tactics at their disposal, and they will be pushing as many buttons as possible to get you to lose control. They can inflict so much psychological warfare and make you suppress so much emotion that you can be backed into an emotional corner. When this happens, the intense frustration you feel, but can’t express through normal communication, will cause you to react in self-defense. Emotional reactions in self-defense to an abusive situation do not make you an abuser.

Diminishing and belittling your opinions and ideas non-verbally by using eye-rolls, scoffs, smug smiles, etc. There are plenty of variations.

Hypnotism and trance induction: This is the most powerful manipulation tool a psychopath uses with his victim, and is related to charm. The technique of hypnosis comes naturally to the psychopath, and he mesmerizes his victim to gain emotional control. Hypnosis and trance are the “attraction heat, attachment magnet and bonding glue,” according to Sandra L. Brown, M.A., author of “Women Who Love Psychopaths.” (*This tactic applies only to psychopaths; the rest on this list are also used by all types of manipulators as well as psychopaths.)

What is Psychological Manipulation?

Psychological Manipulation is a type of influence that attempts to change the behavior or perception of others through underhanded, deceptive and abusive techniques. This advances the interests of the manipulator, generally at the victim's expense, in methods that may be considered abusive, devious, deceptive, and exploitative.

In order to be successful, the art of manipulation involves two things - concealing aggressive or subversive intentions and behaviors while knowing the psychological vulnerabilities of the victim well enough to know what will be the most effective psychological weapons or tactics to be used against them. This is most often accomplished through covert-aggression or carefully veiled aggression - which may be so subtle that it's not easily detected.

Psychological Manipulators know what they want and fight hard to get it.

The tactics Psychological Manipulators use are very effective methods of power and control, because they're almost impossible to be seen as aggressive on the surface, at the unconscious level, the victim feels backed into the corner. Once a victim is backed into a corner, it is more likely that they'll back down or give into the manipulator's demands.

Why Do People Manipulate?

There are many motivations behind manipulation - as varied as the manipulators themselves. Perhaps the manipulator needs to gain something purposefully or feels that they have to advance their own causes or plans - no matter what the cost to others may be. Maybe they need to feel powerful and in-control of their relationships with others. Maybe feeling powerful over others increases their own self-esteem. Maybe the person does not have the social skills to obtain what is wanted or needed by traditional means. Some Psychological Manipulators are psychopathic, having trouble empathizing with or understanding the feelings of themselves or others, and placing their own desires foremost because of it.

How Do Manipulators Manipulate?

There are many techniques that manipulators can use to gain power and control over their victim. Here is a breakdown of some manipulation techniques.

Brandishing Anger - manipulators use anger and rage to shock their victims into submission, although real anger is not necessarily experienced by the manipulator. The anger is simply a show to get whatever he or she wants by cowing the victim into submission.

Covert Intimidation - The victim is thrown on the defensive by the manipulator using subtle, indirect, or implied threats.

Denial - The manipulator refuses to admit that he or she has done anything wrong.

Diversion - Rather than giving a straight answer, the manipulator will often change the subject, often without the change being noticed.

Feigning Confusion - The manipulator plays dumb - pretending she or he has no idea what the victim is talking about, or is confused by the topic at hand.

Feigning Innocence - The manipulator suggests that anything harmful was done unintentionally or that it didn't happen. This makes the victim question their judgement and/or sanity in feeling hurt or betrayed.

Evasion - Providing vague, rambling, incoherent responses to the victim. This often leads to confusion over the matter at hand, as well as making it less likely that the victim will be inclined to pursue further conversations on the topic.

Gaslighting - A form of psychological abuse involving the manipulation of situations or events that cause a person to be confused or to doubt his perceptions and memories. Gaslighting causes victims to constantly second-guess themselves and wonder if they're losing their minds.

Guilt-Tripping - The manipulator suggests to a conscientious victim that he or she doesn't care enough, is too selfish, or has it easy. The victim generally feels guilt or shame as a result, and is thrown into a submissive, anxious, and self-doubting state.

Lying - By the time the truth is apparent, it may be too late to do anything about it. Many manipulative personality types are experts at lying and may do so in subtle ways that are hard to detect.

Lies of Omission - This is lying by withholding a part of the truth, usually with the intention of making something seem innocuous, or less harmful than it really was.

Minimization - The manipulator asserts that his or her behavior is not as harmful as is suggested.

Lying - By the time the truth is apparent, it may be too late to do anything about it. Many manipulative personality types are experts at lying and may do so in subtle ways that are hard to detect.

Projecting the Blame - Scapegoating in subtle ways, blaming the victim or other people for the negative actions or consequences of their actions. This helps to portray the manipulator in a more positive light, and can actively harm the victim's relationships with other people, who may not even have been involved.

Rationalization - An excuse from the manipulator for inappropriate behavior. Rationalization involves giving reasons as to why their behavior was justified and appropriate. When coupled with Guilt-Trips or Scapegoating, the manipulator will often wind up looking like a victim, evoking sympathy from the real victim.

Seduction - Using charm, praise, or flattery to lower the defenses of the victim so that the manipulator gains trust and loyalty.

Shaming - Sarcasm and insults can be used by the manipulator to increase self-doubt and fear in the victim, to make the victim feel unworthy. This may be accomplished by anything from a very subtle fierce look or unpleasant tone of voice to a rhetorical comment. This may make the victim feel badly for daring to challenge them, which also fosters a sense of inadequacy in the victim.

Vilifying the Victim - A powerful method of putting the victim on the defensive while masking aggressive intention.

Vulnerabilities Exploited By Manipulators:

The following are a list of vulnerabilities that may exist in the victims of manipulators. By no means comprehensive, these traits tend to be common in people who are often victimized by Psychological Manipulators.

  • A desire to please and earn the approval and acceptance of others.
  • Naivete - the victim doesn't want to believe that anyone is cunning or ruthless and may be in denial of own victimhood.
  • A fear of negative emotions.
  • Over-internationalization - believing what the manipulator says to be true, which can result in self-doubt or shame.
  • Excessive empathy - the victim tries really hard to understand the point of view of the manipulator and believes the manipulator has a justifiable reason to be hurtful.
  • Over-conscientiousness - victim is too willing to give the manipulator the benefit of the doubt.
  • Low Self-Confidence - victim lacks the ability to say no, doubts themselves, lacks confidence.
  • Emotional Dependency - the victim has a dependent or submissive personality. The more submissive or dependent, the more vulnerable the victim is to exploitation.
  • Low emotional skills - when the victim does not understand his or her emotional self well, they misinterpret feelings

Spotting Manipulation:

In an article by Fiona McColl about manipulation, she identifies several methods of spotting manipulation. If you think you are being vicitmized, these are common signs to look for.

1. Bullshit apologies are often noticable. If your inner gut is telling you that an apology is bullshit, it probably is. Further if you are honest with an emotional manipulator about your feelings, he or she may turn their angst and stress upon you, until YOU wind up comforting THEM.

2. I'll do you a favor, I guess is an example of a common manipulation tactic. A manipulator will propose or agree to assist you with a task, and follow the acceptance up with sighs and subtle behavior to let you know they do not want to follow-through on the agreement.

3. Manipulators are awesome at turning a phrase, by which I mean that they may say one thing, then later deny that they did not say anything at all! Also common is the telling of the truth in such a way as to mean something other than what, on the surface, has been said.

4. Guilt is a common tool for manipulators. Because manipulators often do not directly express their needs and wants, they use tactics, such as guilt, to get someone to act the way they want them to act. Typically this is manifested in terms of the victim needing to care for the manipulator's needs, at the expense of your own.

5. Fighting dirty is not uncommon because manipulators do not like direct confrontation. Often they are passive-aggressive and let you subtly know that they are not happy.

6. Being upstaged by the manipulator's pain - you have a headache, he has a migraine. Calling them on this behavior often results in someone becoming defensive and combative.

How To Combat Manipulation:

1. Hold them accountable! Manipulators often are not held accountable and thus have poor boundaries with others. They do what it takes to get their way. If you tell someone how they hurt your feelings and then that person turns that around to be about them and their suffering, bring the conversation back to the original point- that your feelings are hurt.

2. Take notes! Take notes about conversations and important points, so that you can refer back to those notes later when a manipulator claims a conversation went a different way or never happened.

3. Walk away! Sometimes, the best thing to do is to just walk away. Revisit the situation later, and don't get sucked in to the drama.
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George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
A statement pointing out the RUIN, followed by implied profound understanding of reality, and the promise of delivery the cures necessitated therein, does have the feel of seduction. Viewing it thus am I hiding from true reality because of my lack of profundity of THAT view of reality? When folks emerge from a teaching that reality is ALL contained in the small sphere they have been living and learning in, and out there are the unimaginably boundless realms they could experience, is presenting more of the same therapeutic to them? Don’t they deserve a break, along with the right to explore avenues of development that haven’t been allowed them? Avenues that have been misrepresented? Avenues that have been misunderstood? Avenues that were scorned because they fell out of the sphere of influence the being was trapped in? If one is seriously empathetic of fellow beings, can’t those being’s divine right of exploration be respected? Can you honestly say that your idea of a necessary treatment for another is free of empathetic vanity? Can you not see that true reality is bigger than any of us? Do you honestly believe that it is you that can provide what is best for others? Who fixed you?

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Correct (except that yours was not "ill conceived") . . . TAJ is doing his typical psycho-political type learned red-herring introduced method of making one thing equal another that it does not equal when he pulls stunts like accusing you of trying to abridge folks "right to discuss" . . .

It's perfectly fine and correct to discuss . . . . what is unseemly and against the board rules is the ad homs and the hurling of insults such as TAJ has hurled at Old Auditor by calling him a charlatan, et., etc.

Umm, like it would make sense if those discussing Old Auditor and their opinions of OA's motives or mentality, etc., were to actually instead discuss the subject of his POST! :duh:

And, of course, for those who object that anyone would want to indulge any aspects of investigation into spiritual matters . . . . the intelligent move would be to read this:

That's at the top of the page of every thread you open and you can simply avoid those threads and what is "offensive" to you.

But NOOooo . . . we see the insistence of the urge to engage in being offensive instead.:duh: And you people accuse the likes of OA as being "off the wall" or "bent" :duh:

Don't you realize how this kind of behavior comes across to the lurkers you say you are wanting to influence to get out of the Cof$?

I suggest you look at the fact that many who are on the verge of getting out of the cult are looking for what else and how to continue to pursue their belief in the opportunity to advance their spiritual recovery and awareness. The thing that holds many IN the cult is the lie that only in the cult is the "route out."

Insulting and vitriolic behavior on this board does not help those folks you say you want to help exit where they are.


I am under the impression that it is not so much as to be offensive as it is to warn folks about handing their trust over without reading more than just the positive views.

This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dear TINO,

I do not sell blocks of hours aka intensives.
I sell auditing in whatever quantity my clients want and generally do not let them buy more than they can consume in a month.

Money on account is an obligation and most clients have only as much on account as they wish to have.

Most of my clients are soloing on the SRT processes as well as getting sessions from me. I would estimate that solo sessions are twenty times greater than what I personally deliver.

This paying in advance business is shaky in my opinion.

It's a Scientology practice, a cult practice.

What other therapist, councillor, priest, fortune teller or medium operate with Advanced payments? I can't think of anything. Earlier, or on another thread you said you had 40 clients or something. Charging $100.00 an hour, you could have built up an AP LIST value of several tens of thousands of dollars or even more.

That's a huge obligation and liability! You're an older person, what happens if you drop dead? Who's going to deliver this service?

How many of these customers are elderly and on fixed incomes? I mean, dude, don't you think there's room for a lot of elder abuse potential in this set-up?


I swear, the more you post you wins and abilities to assist people with their BTs, the more questions I have.

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
I know of very few OT IIIs who did not have nightmares for several days after starting OT III because their body thetans were all jazzed up from days of demos and restimulative study assignments.
When I got the confidential OT III pack, I stayed up until 2 A.M. enjoying it as I would a good piece of science fiction (although I didn't consider it to be fiction). I didn't have any nightmares. I just took the attitude I was freeing beings and giving them case gain.

My attitude now is that not all entities are bad -- you only want to cast out those who are problematic in some way.



Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Dear TAJ and other bitter clingers,

You condemn yourself with every comment and it is a shame.
Surely Scientology has not left such permanent scars on your that you cannot smile once in a while.

I do not recall that ESMB was always a non-stop bitchfest, but it seems that any suggestion of things possibly getting better for any reason prompts a tirade from the self-appointed guardians of the "Life is awful and can't get better" brigade.

Do you plan on sitting in your self assigned penalty box forever?

Most of us in the Freezone, free zone, and Independent field have gone on to lead normal lives with kids and jobs and careers and we still find time to help those who are having trouble recovering from the cult. We "misguided" positive thinkers you sneer at are getting on with life and looking at new vistas while you roam the dark corners of ESMB looking for any signs of hope so you can squash them before they spread.

It appears that you have left Hubbard's cult only to found one of your own: "Life is awful and can't get better"

I've never seen such a display of contempt towards those who have been evaluated as needing to be helped.


Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
This thread has raised numerous issues that I find worth responding to.

1. Censorship v. ad homs -
I don't see any call by Moderator 2 for censorship. Ad homs lead to nastier ad homs, which lead to whatever is nastier than ad homs, e.g., calls for bannings, raeg-quits, and actual bannings. The Board rules encourage free expression of all kinds and require that debates observe the rules of civilized discourse.

2. The Freezone Forum -
This is a forum where things Freezone are discussable. It is NOT a place free of criticism of Freezone practices. I've never heard a mod or Emma suggest that.

3. Putting people on IGNORE -
IGNORE is useful for those of us (certainly including me) who decide we'd rather not listen to people we find ignorant, irritating, or so inflammatory they raise our blood pressure or incite us to verbal violence. And since verbal violence is against Board rules, sometimes the IGNORE function has kept me from violating board rules. The button is under my control. I can turn it on and off at will. I use it in different ways -- as an emotional governor, to remind me that this poster is on my "stupid" list, or just as an efficiency tool.

4. Old Auditor - is he a Scientologist in sheep's clothing?
You be the judge. Look at this site published by Old Auditor: http://workabletechnology.com/?page_id=505 . He refers to preclears, OTs, grade chart, auditing -- all the things that Scientology is about. He's perfectly welcome to be a Scientologist. But to pretend here that he's doing something different is disingenuous. It's also tacky.

5. Is Old Auditor trolling?
Maybe. ITYIWT quoted Old Auditor's obvious snark: "There is only one thing sorrier than a person who has lost all hope. That is some one who wants to make sure there is no hope for anyone else." That's Scientology-speak for "You're going to hell and taking your friends with you!" Yes, it's snark, but it's also amusing to those of us who have graduated beyond hoping this bullshit will turn out to be true if we just buy more auditing or attempt one more harebrained C/S. To suggest that those of us who object to Old Auditor's legacy goal ("... my goal is to have 1000 people soloing on the SRT processes in the next few years") are "without hope" because we don't share his goal is silly.

6. Does Old Auditor have the right to speak his mind here?
Yes. Of course. But those who don't agree with him also have the right to criticize his opinions and suggestions. But board rules require that we must do that without ad hom. We can use reason or cite examples or even just express our disagreement. Even if every post Old Auditor made here were followed with twenty posts of "I disagree! Your Scientology is harmful!" he can't holler, "Harassment!" We have the right to oppose Scientology here. He has the obligation of persuading others of the efficacy of his Scientology (whether standard or squirrel) -- or of his Oldauditorology (if he maintains that what he's doing is not Scientology) -- against a backdrop of Scientology's record of abuse, idiocy, extortion, disaffection, and pissed off people. If he prefers to express himself in a forum where he'll have to holler louder over the noise of those who don't agree with him, he is perfectly welcome to go find another forum in which he doesn't have to holler so loud.

My two cents' worth.






Silver Meritorious Patron

What long term agreements did Hubbard break?
What long term agreements and promises made were broken within the subject matter...Scientology?
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OldA said:
I have yet to complain about harassment or the failure to read my posts before commenting as I feel that is part of the ESMB tradition where those who have lost hope can gnash their teeth at any suggestion that things might possibly get better. What is more remarkable is that the loudest naysayers never seem to acknowledge that they were in a cult and still are manifesting cult behavior.

Wow. Just wow.
Firstly, there isn't any 'tradition', it is simply too many differing minds to be thus, and I am talking generalities here and, admittedly, there are a couple of people who tackle things in the same sort of mind-set as if they were still cultified. I hate to say it but you are doing exactly that, maybe you cannot see this. I've been around here for a bit and rarely see 'tooth-gnashingness', and most frequently a massive amount of understanding and patience, love and tolerance.
Mostly, people will read a persons posts 'per-topic', but usually are replying to a specific point of contention. Buttons get pushed, alarms go off, and all that fun stuff, it ain't a big deal.
You demean others because they criticized your take on things, and frankly man, I can see why some have (and I have read many of your posts, including old non-related things). You strike me as neither clever or logical in debating issues that concern some of the people here, instead choose to try and subtly attack/condescend them because they 'do not see my rightness'.

My wee thought of the afternoon before rescuing the dwarflette from school.

:cheers: to you, watch that horse eh, it may seem higher because you might be smaller than you think.

Edit~ I feel I must add this forgotten omission because it is an important point to me and I derp'd~ The 'hope' card. Hope is a wish, and here the hope is recovery amongst good people from an evil, degrading, illusionary experience.(YMMV)
Casting aspersions at people because 'you' consider yourself and your ways some sort of 'only hope' ( :duh: ), and that those who disagree are in some strange way negating the 'hope-factor', looks disingenuous when I look at your claimed goals. By suggesting that YOU have an 'only answer'.... oh how Hubbardarian *sigh-of-sadness*
Yeh, I know I'm being a bit of a bitch here, I hope I remained polite :)
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Maybe this~

"Kindness is the language the blind can see and the deaf can hear." Mark Twain


And "Ignorance is Bliss". Don't know who said that, but I want bliss. I have wasted a lot of my life trying to cut out the very thing that would make me happy.

So for my battle plan I need to get blind and deaf so I can apprehend all the kindness that I now fail to see and then I need to get ignint. Happy life, here I come!

But even though I'm not deaf and blind yet Ossy, I know you are kind.


Patron with Honors
Dear TINO,

I can appreciate your concern, especially if your only frame of reference is the church of Scientology.
Let's start and see if I can respond to this one first:

I swear, the more you post you wins and abilities to assist people with their BTs, the more questions I have.

That is quite understandable as what I deliver is so far from Scientology that we decided to call it what it was, Spiritual Rescue Technology. The pc is audited remotely, she does not hold emeter cans, and she can enjoy a beverage of choice while in session. Meter reads are not indicated and neither are Floating Needles although I as the auditor may use them to guide the session actions.

Ownership of charge is always checked as in some cases both the client and the spiritual beings may have have charge on an area.

The sessions almost always start with enough two way communication to insure that the client and the practitioner are comfortable with each other. We call it "sharing space" as it enables the client and the practitioner to be in such good communication that the practitioner is able to see the client's pictures and follow what the client has her attention on.

The opening statement is usually one of these: "Is there something your attention is fixed on? or "What would you like to handle today?" The rest of the process is described on spiritual-rescue-technology.com

And, now for the rest:

This paying in advance business is shaky in my opinion.
What other therapist, councillor, priest, fortune teller or medium operate with Advanced payments? I can't think of anything.

If your only experience of paying for services is the COS method of bullying pcs to mortgage their futures for imagined gains, I can see why you would view it as shaky. My clients can buy as few hours as they wish and I suggest that they buy only enough for a months worth of sessions which is probably 4 or 5 sessions. As far as paying in advance, I have always requested payment in advance for consulting, for my other business, and for counseling. When you take a class you pay in advance. When you rent an apartment you pay in advance. Why not pay in advance for counseling? I have never had a refund by the way.

My clients usually come to me as a last resort after failing to get help from the church or Ron's Org, or other independent auditors. They know that they have not been helped even by the best standard tech auditors available. I give them an introductory session and if I handle their ruin in that session, which happens quite frequently, they sign up for more of my SRT processing. They already know they will get results before they buy a single hour.

Earlier, or on another thread you said you had 40 clients or something. Charging $100.00 an hour, you could have built up an AP LIST value of several tens of thousands of dollars or even more.

That's a huge obligation and liability! You're an older person, what happens if you drop dead? Who's going to deliver this service?

Yes, there was a time when I had an AP list value of several tens of thousands of dollars and I worked it down to its present modest level. I had the same concerns you have. Advanced payments are a liability and I keep that liability manageable. I have other obligations in life and do not audit all day every day. I am on call seven days a week, but I try to keep my auditing down to 4 hours a day.

How many of these customers are elderly and on fixed incomes? I mean, dude, don't you think there's room for a lot of elder abuse potential in this set-up?


Almost all of the customers are younger than I am and yet a good portion of them are on marginal incomes, fixed income or disability because escapees from the cult of Scientology are often in bad shape spiritually, physically and financially. They have already suffered more elder abuse than you could imagine from the COS. My task is to get them able to support themselves again and remove any barriers to recreating their lives as they wish them to be.

Fortunately, I have a growing number of professional clients who own their own businesses and they are a major source of income.

I have found that intensive auditing is not necessary. In fact, most of my clients need a week to come down after a good session as things change so much in each session.

I have tried to explain this in previous comments, but auditing entities produces different effects from conventional Hubbard auditing. An entity is capable of altering a person's perception of life and is also capable of generating emotions and attitudes that alter how the person deals with life. Handling just one entity in session can permanently change a person's life. A lawyer is no longer afraid of a particular judge, a man no longer has voices in his head telling him what to do, a woman no longer falls in lust whenever she meets a new man. These sessions can be as short as fifteen minutes.

You are welcome to ask as many questions as you wish.
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