WHAT LONG TERM AGREEMENTS IS IS IT OK TO BREAK?

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The effort to change ...

Politeness granted... I dunno. I tend to be polite most of the time to most people, even you TAJ, right? I hope Old Auditor doesn't feel I haven't been polite. Time will tell I suppose.

My opinion - Peddle the wares as much as anyone want but don't get offended when people openly criticize you for it.

Fair point, but sharing ideas on here in the hope that other people will also benefit from them (as I do), without any intent of personal gain, is not the same as trying to reg people for a freezone practice.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The effort to change ...

OK, well by that same token would it be OK for me to butt into a thread discussing, say Tommy Davis and say something like, "Why are you wasting your time talking about this loser?" if other people want to discuss him? Or, is it just a case of us being able to acknowledge and respect our individual differences, and "live and let live"?

Old Auditor is in a different place though, as you've pointed out, because they are actively trying to reg people on here for their own or others' auditing practices instead of just sharing ideas. I'm not sure if that's OK on here, or that Emma ever intended ESMB to be a board where it would happen.

It would be OK for you to say anything you like.

The problem is not realizing that to many of the posters here it is not a "live and let life" matter.

They have lost loved ones because of Scientology.

So it is not an equal playing field when one discusses how great Scientology is in the face of their pain.

Someone in the past gave the example of someone going to an AA meeting and talking about how wonderful drinking is.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The effort to change ...

I think it was given its own section to enable Freezoners et al to post here without being hassled.

It isn't a rule, but a politeness granted.

As for me I don't care about their threads discussing the Tech with each other.

But when they try to stir up emotions and subtly advertise for new customers among other posters and lurkers I get angry.

Some of them are insulting to those who have suffered at the hands of the Church when those who have suffered object to their shilling for the Tech.

I think it is time to no longer give them a freezone (pun intended) to poison and offend and pour salt on old wounds.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I don't (as you might expect) but I do agree that it's become a problem that badly needs sorting out. And in case anyone's in any doubt, I am very sympathetic to the needs of people who come here to "decompress" (as Trouble puts it.)

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: The effort to change ...

Posted by Cat's Squirrel

OK, well by that same token would it be OK for me to butt into a thread discussing, say Tommy Davis and say something like, "Why are you wasting your time talking about this loser?" if other people want to discuss him? Or, is it just a case of us being able to acknowledge and respect our individual differences, and "live and let live"?

Of course it would be OK and you'd probably have a point, but 'we' are not aiming at 'ARC' and don't always agree with each other (as you know) but we usually end up laughing and it would be cool if you joined in more.

Old Auditor is in a different place though, as you've pointed out, because they are actively trying to reg people on here for their own or others' auditing practices instead of just sharing ideas. I'm not sure if that's OK on here, or that Emma ever intended ESMB to be a board where it would happen.

She didn't intend that to happen at all (and says so very clearly in the FAQ's).

 

[He-man]

Re: The effort to change ...

I think the real problem is that some of us, me especially, can get so anger at their contempt for us (and our contempt for them) that sparks start to fly.

If someone we could integrate the two sides without insults and harshness it would be OK.

But that is difficult and the alternative is to work the moderators to death.

Most freezoners are not a problem and it is quite enjoyable having them here: Cat's Squirrel, Mimsey, Leon, are some and I'm sure that there are others.

But ones like Old Auditor who overtly condemns us for not believing in his crap while he sells his poison are the ones I despise.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Yes the anger that drives, I know it too well.

For me that comes when I want someone to change, mostly so they become what I want them to be. I have learnt that there really isn't a lot I can do to change people though, so I have become less of an angry person meself.

I've no problem with anyone of "them" really, but it seems to me that the problem lies in that "we" are free to think critically of the "tech" and what is being posted, and that will always be seen as an "attack" by someone promoting smut.. TECH! here on the forum.

Had to put it in there, watch an old Monty Python yesterday where they were in a smutty store and the word "smut" has been lingering within me since.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The effort to change ...

Fair point, but sharing ideas on here in the hope that other people will also benefit from them (as I do), without any intent of personal gain, is not the same as trying to reg people for a freezone practice.

Except that people here have been violated by the very subject that others want to benefit from and spread to others.

What if I started a thread about how great it feels to rape a woman and suggest ways of doing so?

Do you see the similarity?

This is what I mean about disregarding the pain that Scientology continuously inflicts on many of the posters and lurkers here.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[He-man]

Fair point, but sharing ideas on here in the hope that other people will also benefit from them (as I do), without any intent of personal gain, is not the same as trying to reg people for a freezone practice.

Sharing ideas is AWESOME! Should always be done and there is nothing wrong with that. But lets turn the light there for a moment - When I, or anyone, share a criticism of your idea, that is also sharing an idea and is also awesome!

Criticizing isn't evil in its intent. I don't always love when people criticize me(because most of the time I realize I've said or done something very stupid and I hate being called on it) but I can see the good that comes from it.

All of that being said, I don't remember ever criticizing you for anything, if I have and forgotten please direct me to it, I have to say I have a good opinion of you, and do so of some other Frizbees(and ex Frizbees) too.

 

[He-man]

Re: The effort to change ...

Except that people here have been violated by the very subject that others want to benefit from and spread to others.

What if I started a thread about how great it feels to rape a woman and suggest ways of doing so?

Do you see the similarity?

This is what I mean about disregarding the pain that Scientology continuously inflicts on many of the posters and lurkers here.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I agree with what you are saying but at the same time, is it not better to call for an open honest discussion in a thread like you have done, than to ask for censorship?

I rather have any person feel free to post, and get shot for it, than have to worry about who I offend. Not trying to go all Voltaire on you and all that crap but... I dunno, you write the truth, I just feel that there is something that I need to ponder in my brain.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The effort to change ...

Yes the anger that drives, I know it too well.

For me that comes when I want someone to change, mostly so they become what I want them to be. I have learnt that there really isn't a lot I can do to change people though, so I have become less of an angry person meself.

I've no problem with anyone of "them" really, but it seems to me that the problem lies in that "we" are free to think critically of the "tech" and what is being posted, and that will always be seen as an "attack" by someone promoting smut.. TECH! here on the forum.

Had to put it in there, watch an old Monty Python yesterday where they were in a smutty store and the word "smut" has been lingering within me since.

You can think critically, and that's fine, but just suppose that I do something that's been mentioned or discussed in The FZ section in order to handle a problem I have in life (as I did last week), and IMO get good results from it. (Pilot's Protest process, in case anyone's wondering).

Somebody comes along and says (in effect) as people do here, that I can't have done and am just deluded or kidding myself, because LRH was a crook and a con man and the Tech (and by extension any of its offshoots) is a total crock of shite.

How is that going to work out, seeing as; 1 / I'm effectively anonymous on here and don't know any of the other posters in RL and 2 / I've got no way of contradicting them with what can only ever be a subjective experience (albeit a good one) or, if anything good actually did happen in life, it could be ascribed to a coincidence?

Do you see where I'm coming from here?

 

[Infinite]

''

I'm not sure how or why warning people against employing L Ron Hubbard techniques can be seen as somehow NOT helping someone?

Just one example, do the FreeZone [STRIKE]hynpo-cans[/STRIKE] emeters carry the following label prominently displayed?

The E-Meter is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily functions of anyone.

^^^ORDER OF United States District Court for the District of Columbia, No. D.C. 1-63. September 29, 1971.

Of course, a person is free to believe that the emeter can measure thought and, indeed, it would seem many do genuinely believe that to be the case. However, science proves otherwise. The emeter only really became essential, according to L Ron Hubbard, once researchers at New York University debunked the premise for engrams. Without academic support for his notions, L Ron Hubbard was left with no option other than to introduce a stage prop into the role playing game referred to as Auditing. Some history might help understand this . . .

[video=youtube_share;wLNgtiICesU]http://youtu.be/wLNgtiICesU[/video]​

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The effort to change ...

Except that people here have been violated by the very subject that others want to benefit from and spread to others.

What if I started a thread about how great it feels to rape a woman and suggest ways of doing so?

Do you see the similarity?

This is what I mean about disregarding the pain that Scientology continuously inflicts on many of the posters and lurkers here.

The Anabaptist Jacques

With respect AJ, I and I think most other people here would regard prostitution to be a better analogy for what you're saying than rape (there is a debate about the ethics of prostitution, at least in the liberal press in the UK) and there is a punter's forum where people go and discuss their experiences of paying for sex, which many people regard as morally dubious if not objectionable.

 

[Moderator 2]

Want to Ignore this Thread?

Here is a link to directions on how to activate the 'ignore' function for any forum on the board, for those who wish their lives to be "tech free".

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...s-on-New-Posts-list&highlight=ignoring+forums

M2

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The effort to change ...

I agree with what you are saying but at the same time, is it not better to call for an open honest discussion in a thread like you have done, than to ask for censorship?

I rather have any person feel free to post, and get shot for it, than have to worry about who I offend. Not trying to go all Voltaire on you and all that crap but... I dunno, you write the truth, I just feel that there is something that I need to ponder in my brain.

I'm not calling for censorship, just discussion on equal terms.

When someone who is pushing the Tech tells someone here who has lost a son or daughter to the cult that they are being reactive or whatever it is that has been said what is within bounds that the person can reply?

I'm not calling for any censorship at all.

Just an equal playing field.

And when one side of the argument pours salt on open wounds how can one respond politely to that?

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[He-man]

Re: The effort to change ...

You can think critically, and that's fine, but just suppose that I do something that's been mentioned or discussed in The FZ section in order to handle a problem I have in life (as I did last week), and IMO get good results from it.

Somebody comes along and says (in effect) as people do here, that I can't have done and am just deluded or kidding myself, because LRH was a crook and a con man and the Tech (and by extension any of its offshoots) is a total crock of shit.

How is that going to work out, seeing as; 1 ./ I'm effectively anonymous on here and don't know any of the other posters in RL and 2 / I've got no way of contradicting them with what can only ever be a subjective experience (albeit a good one) or, eif anything good actually did happen, it could be ascribed to a coincidence?

Do you see where I'm coming from here?

I would suggest engaging with a local university with a well documented paper on it and.. no scrap that way too complicated anyhow.

On 1 and 2 Anonymity works both ways - what's to say you aren't just making it up to troll, make fun off or to engage in some other sillyness? If you feel you have good results and they work for you, good for you. If you bring it up in a thread, you are opening up for a discussion right? And then by all means lets discuss!

I can fer sure say one thing in scientology worked for me, TR's and the communication course helped me - but I know that I could have benefited from similar techniques outside of scientology for no or little cost and less time spend, and without the mindF.
See what I mean, I don't go all black on the subject, I like to think that I'm not a parrot, or a person of little intellect who hasn't done some serious thinking on the subject. Problem is, my thinking got me into the point of view that it's all just baloney, and not good or healthy for anyone to engage in. You might consider it to be for you, but what I have seen is that it can have a very bad influence on the overall environment around any person who uses the "tech", in particular Ethics tech or any kind of "admin" stuff. meant to control how we live

 

[He-man]

Re: The effort to change ...

I'm not calling for censorship, just discussion on equal terms.

When someone who is pushing the Tech tells someone here who has lost a son or daughter to the cult that they are being reactive or whatever it is that has been said what is within bounds that the person can reply?

I'm not calling for any censorship at all.

Just an equal playing field.

And when one side of the argument pours salt on open wounds how can one respond politely to that?

The Anabaptist Jacques

Fair play on ya Jacques. On the last part, I can only say I know there used to be a site with polite ways to tell someone to sod off, I can't find the site but I know you already have acquired those skills.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The effort to change ...

With respect AJ, I and I think most other people here would regard prostitution to be a better analogy for what you're saying than rape (there is a debate about the ethics of prostitution, at least in the liberal press in the UK) and there is a punter's forum where people go and discuss their experiences of paying for sex, which many people regard as morally dubious if not objectionable.

You're missing my point.

Assuming that we want to have open and respectful discussions, what if I started a thread about how great it is to rape women and I want to spread my tech on how to do that?

Even though I may have been very polite with no Ad Homs, do you think I should expect a polite response from one of the women I raped, or intend to rape?

How would someone respond to me?

I make this analogy because Freezone et al. people here do promote that which has violated and hurt deeply many of the posters and lurkers here.

And some of them are insulting along the way.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: The effort to change ...

You can think critically, and that's fine, but just suppose that I do something that's been mentioned or discussed in The FZ section in order to handle a problem I have in life (as I did last week), and IMO get good results from it. (Pilot's Protest process, in case anyone's wondering).

Somebody comes along and says (in effect) as people do here, that I can't have done and am just deluded or kidding myself, because LRH was a crook and a con man and the Tech (and by extension any of its offshoots) is a total crock of shit.

How is that going to work out, seeing as; 1 / I'm effectively anonymous on here and don't know any of the other posters in RL and 2 / I've got no way of contradicting them with what can only ever be a subjective experience (albeit a good one) or, if anything good actually did happen in life, it could be ascribed to a coincidence?

Do you see where I'm coming from here?

I see where you are coming from Cats but that's a risk you'd have to weigh up prior to posting what will probably sound much like a 'success story' (which could make a few people want to throw up for sure) ...

I'm on my bike now (lol) ... apparently there IS a way I can block the whole poxy Freezone area and I'm off now to do it.

Love to all and goodbyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: Want to Ignore this Thread?

Here is a link to directions on how to activate the 'ignore' function for any forum on the board, for those who wish their lives to be "tech free".

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...s-on-New-Posts-list&highlight=ignoring+forums

M2

If this is offered as a solution to the problem then this board will become a Tech exchange.

(Jeez, I'm starting to sound like Alanzo)

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[He-man]

Re: Want to Ignore this Thread?

If this is offered as a solution to the problem then this board will become a Tech exchange.

(Jeez, I'm starting to sound like Alanzo)

The Anabaptist Jacques

If that'd be the case I'd love to sell/trade my old Chinese scratch sticks. Proven to help me relax when my back needs a good scratching and unlocks new potentials of thinkyness within me all of the time!

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: Want to Ignore this Thread?

If this is offered as a solution to the problem then this board will become a Tech exchange.

(Jeez, I'm starting to sound like Alanzo)

The Anabaptist Jacques

Oh bum ... it didn't work, I'll try again later (I'm off to sulk for a minute now).