What means cause over MEST?

newlife

Patron
You are into contradictions here.

OT definition specifically means to operate the MEST directly without using a body.


People here have been conned to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and/or decades to reach for OT, eventually we didn't got what was promised and now you come and say "sorry guys, you were OTs already if you were just able move your body around!". Bullshit!

What you refer to is the definition of OT that says: A thetan exterior who can have but doesn’t have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space and time.

1. I don’t see the contradiction, because “control and operate” are in line with “being cause”.
I would agree if you would say: There is more to it.

2. There is a gradient scale of “control”, there is a gradient scale of “operate”, there is a gradiënt schale of “exterior”.

3. You mention “the MEST”, probably refering to objects in the physical universe. That’s what most people may have in mind when they read this definition.
Operating matter, energy, space and time does not necessarily refer to “moving objects in the physical universe.”
Has is ever occurred to you that when you’re running an engram of a pc sitting in front of you, that you’re at that time controling and operating matter, energy, space and time?
Well, to the degree that one is OT, he can handle this MEST without body and without an E-meter.
Sure, this would also affect his ability to handle MEST in the physical universe. But not in the way of some supernatural manifestations, because that again would be a very complicated agree-disagree-trick.

Many people haven’t understood the definition in the first place. Both who have sold the OT-levels as well as those who bought the OT-levels.
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GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
redges and MEST

Anytime a redge has anything to say regarding MEST it ultimately has something to do with money.

Pete
 
The big MU on it all was caused by a typo. The "t' was supposed to be another "s". MESS. Damn typesetters!

You get your ruin found when you come in. = You are a fucking MESS. Just as you need to be at cause over the MESS in your kitchen and lounge, you also need to be at cause over the MESS that is you and your mind. Clear up that fucking MESS.

Matter Energy Space Shit. I am Cause over my matter, energy, and
space shit. It's all rahther simple really and so many do not understand the true nature of it.
 

LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
The big MU on it all was caused by a typo. The "t' was supposed to be another "s". MESS. Damn typesetters!

You get your ruin found when you come in. = You are a fucking MESS. Just as you need to be at cause over the MESS in your kitchen and lounge, you also need to be at cause over the MESS that is you and your mind. Clear up that fucking MESS.

Matter Energy Space Shit. I am Cause over my matter, energy, and
space shit. It's all rahther simple really and so many do not understand the true nature of it.

Another typo; I think you meant Space Ship.

I'm sure they've got little bags for the Space Shit, or they just dump it out a porthole.

Anyway with regard to OT abilities, on the SHSBC Hubbard said it was easiest just to use the body to go and pick something up.

Mind you, I was most deflated when I heard this, because surprisingly that is what I had been doing since I was about 12 months old.

LTG
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
That first story about the goldfish is from Misty Alexander, her husband and her are both CL12s. These sorts of wins are'nt cause over MEST type wins, each time they claim to have influenced MEST through a LIFE unit. For some reason this seems to be the normal type win OTs seem to have more commonly, it more aligns with their experience in auditing BTs on the pre OT levels.

I've done a lot of this kind of thing, trying to save animals and heal people by blowing bts or influencing the being in the area favourably, of course it doesn't hardly ever work, but it appears to occasionally when the target was going to recover anyway,or by mechanisms not really understood that are part of human ability which of course could well happen from time to time. Then you say OMFG how OT am I!!!!! Going up the bridge WAS sure worth all the pain and abuse!

Heh! Yeah . . . if saving animals is your buzz, might as well bite the bullet, spend the $500k and become the world's best trained vet. Student life in wog world is far from abominable, and at the end of the education you have a far greater earning potential.

You do raise that wonderful and unavoidable logic device Scientologists are trained to ignore: the static/causative/correlated dynamic. In your environment with its inherent exposure to the life and death of animals, just how much of your efforts to save life are due to the fact that some will, despite intervention, die, and some will live? It then becomes observer bias as to whether or not the "miracles" are due to the harsh reality of "the odds" or can be ascribed to the wonders of clearing body thetans.
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
...
Has is ever occurred to you that when you’re running an engram of a pc sitting in front of you, that you’re at that time controlling and operating matter, energy, space and time?
...

You are not doing it. You communicate and get the PC doing it. And it is Cause over mental images or thought, not MEST.

Whether mental masses (or mental images) have any physical mass at all, I think yes, but I see no proof, and anyway they are avery different kind of MEST. You can mock-up a pink elephant in your mind, but you can't mock it up in the physical universe.

Everybody to a degree can control mental images. The best artistic creations started in the creator's mind first. The Star Wars saga was created in George Lucas's mind first. Scientific insights started in the scientist minds.

I do not see Scientologists to excel in any creative or scientific field. Scientology's glaring contributions to society is mind control, enslavement, fraud, harassment.

So, for me Cause over MEST, as promised by LRH, is cause over MEST (a stone, a tree, somebody else's body), not cause over my own mind or over my own body. Everybody, even animals, are cause over their minds and bodies, we didn't need LRH for that.

I would also say that we are not cause over our bodies, we can control them as much as they consent. I can't control the color of my hairs, my heartbeat, my cells replication. If I lose a finger in an accident, I cannot grow another. I feel I'm a guest in my body, I treat it well and hopefully it serves me good for a long time.
 

newlife

Patron
You are not doing it. You communicate and get the PC doing it. And it is Cause over mental images or thought, not MEST.

Whether mental masses (or mental images) have any physical mass at all, I think yes, but I see no proof, and anyway they are avery different kind of MEST. You can mock-up a pink elephant in your mind, but you can't mock it up in the physical universe.

Everybody to a degree can control mental images. The best artistic creations started in the creator's mind first. The Star Wars saga was created in George Lucas's mind first. Scientific insights started in the scientist minds.

I do not see Scientologists to excel in any creative or scientific field. Scientology's glaring contributions to society is mind control, enslavement, fraud, harassment.

So, for me Cause over MEST, as promised by LRH, is cause over MEST (a stone, a tree, somebody else's body), not cause over my own mind or over my own body. Everybody, even animals, are cause over their minds and bodies, we didn't need LRH for that.

I would also say that we are not cause over our bodies, we can control them as much as they consent. I can't control the color of my hairs, my heartbeat, my cells replication. If I lose a finger in an accident, I cannot grow another. I feel I'm a guest in my body, I treat it well and hopefully it serves me good for a long time.

Definition of “theta universe”: thought matter, thought energy, thought space, and thought time, combined in an independent universe analogous to the material universe.
In other spiritual practices often referred to as “the other world”.

You have a pc in front of you and this pc has experienced a plane crash and since that time he is afraid of flying in a plane.
This incident does not exist anymore in the material universe. Let’s say it happened 10 years ago.
But it certainly exists in the universe of this pc.
He might be totally unaware of it, but it does exist in his universe.
If it didn’t exist, it wouldn’t be affecting him.
This incident has time, it has a certain location in it’s own space, it contains energy of fire and it contains the mass of the plane.
Saying that the mass doesn’t exist would mean that the incident doesn’t exist.
It doesn’t mean that this mass exists in the material universe or physically in his head.

So you run the incident and it disappears and the pc feels relieved and is not afraid anymore of planes.
Sure, the pc did it himself.
But didn’t the auditor steer him through and caused the pc to run the incident?

This pc was not cause over planes.
He would not have been able to fly a plane or build a plane.
The auditor was to a certain degree cause over planes, because if he hadn’t been able to confront planes, then he wouldn’t have been able to run the incident.
He also caused a change in the universe of that pc.
He did it with the use of his body and an E-meter.

An OT can bring about a change in the universe of others without body or E-meter.
Some can do it a little bit, others can do it better.
OT is not an absolute; it is a gradient scale.

When you talk about “cause over MEST as promised by LRH” and “not cause over our bodies” then you’re talking again in absolutes.
Of course you’re not TOTAL cause over your body or TOTAL cause over MEST. Did LRH promise that?
If you can move your hand one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over your hand.
If you can move a stone one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over that stone.
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Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Definition of “theta universe”: thought matter, thought energy, thought space, and thought time, combined in an independent universe analogous to the material universe.
In other spiritual practices often referred to as “the other world”.

You have a pc in front of you and this pc has experienced a plane crash and since that time he is afraid of flying in a plane.
This incident does not exist anymore in the material universe. Let’s say it happened 10 years ago.
But it certainly exists in the universe of this pc.
He might be totally unaware of it, but it does exist in his universe.
If it didn’t exist, it wouldn’t be affecting him.
This incident has time, it has a certain location in it’s own space, it contains energy of fire and it contains the mass of the plane.
Saying that the mass doesn’t exist would mean that the incident doesn’t exist.
It doesn’t mean that this mass exists in the material universe or physically in his head.

So you run the incident and it disappears and the pc feels relieved and is not afraid anymore of planes.
Sure, the pc did it himself.
But didn’t the auditor steer him through and caused the pc to run the incident?

This pc was not cause over planes.
He would not have been able to fly a plane or build a plane.
The auditor was to a certain degree cause over planes, because if he hadn’t been able to confront planes, then he wouldn’t have been able to run the incident.
He also caused a change in the universe of that pc.
He did it with the use of his body and an E-meter.

An OT can bring about a change in the universe of others without body or E-meter.
Some can do it a little bit, others can do it better.
OT is not an absolute; it is a gradient scale.

When you talk about “cause over MEST as promised by LRH” and “not cause over our bodies” then you’re talking again in absolutes.
Of course you’re not TOTAL cause over your body or TOTAL cause over MEST. Did LRH promise that?
If you can move your hand one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over your hand.
If you can move a stone one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over that stone.
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tumblr_lbg76hKWjQ1qzz7nr.gif
 

Gadfly

Crusader
That's what is so clever about LRH's definition of OT. It can mean anything to anyone. And no one who becomes 'OT' has to explain, in any detail, what it means to them other than they are happy or 'blown away'.

What does it mean? Anything you want it to. There, now you don't have to spend $300,000 dollars to find out.

I suspect that some people don't appreciate just how effective Scn is at controlling you because so MANY definitions and terms are "open-ended". Meaning that, just as AngeloV so accurately points out, so many terms can mean anything to anyone.

That wouldn't be so bad, at least in normal life where people can freely communicate and discuss such things. But, always keep in mind that in the ultra-controlled environment of Scientology, that 1) all discussion of case is forbidden (per policy), and 2) ALL discussion of the "tech" is forbidden (Verbal Data heavily pounced upon whenever it occurs).

So, within the confines of the Church environment, nobody much compares notes, and most people walk around with VERY DIFFERENT ideas about all sorts of things related to Scientology, but they don't know it. And, the only things that does get promoted and constantly pushed in their faces are "wins", success stories, the OT VII completion standing and telling the biggest and best "success" he or she can muster up, etc.

Also, Hubbard, as usual defines "OT" in MANY different ways in many different places. He tells you on the one hand that an "OT" can operate and effect MEST by intention alone (entirely out of body, with no need for a body, and no tendency to go "back in" when hurt), and then also tells you that you have a "hidden standard" if you EXPECT such things as a result of auditing!

People can argue what the term "OT really means" until Hell freezes over, but the truth is that it is PROMOTED in Advance Mag and Souce Mag, and by regges, and at briefings, and has been for many decades, as including all sorts of strange and powerful "parapsychological" sort of phenomena.

The biggest problem, to me, about Scientology auditing is that the results are utterly RANDOM. There is no aspect where a person gets to a point where he or she can CAUSE such things AT WILL. These phenomena "happen to you", just as do sunsets, the weather and accidents. Actually, most people are the "effect" of these phenomena just as they are anything else. They don't and can't CAUSE them AT WILL.

I have an affinity for occult subjects, because some do involve extensive training techniques where one does learn to control ones own mind, imagination, intention, etc. Some Scio-defenders might say, well OF COURSE, we will learn to do all of that above OT8.

That might be true. But, then why even call anything under OT9 an "OT Level"? Because, really, up through OTVII has NOTHING to do with TRAINING to be an "OT". NOTHING. Like so much in Scientology, it is just more PR and spin, necessary to get people to pay money and do services. If they were told that the REAL OT LEVELS start above OT8, and that everything else below that is SETUP, well, who would buy THAT? Of course, it is highly unlikely that ANYTHING exists above OT8! It seems Hubbard didn't leave it all "mapped out", and the Church managers will put together some version of the upper OT levels. But again, what they will be is anyone's guess.

One of the largest flaws of Scientology is THIS:

Nobody is going to DROP "OT powers" onto you by paying money and answering some questions in session. It will not happen. If you want to get good at anything, you must PRACTICE, and practice long and hard. The same is true for "powers of the mind". But, nobody is practicing anything even remotely like that in Scientology. And, they all walk around in this cloud of delusion imagining themselves somehow "better" and "more able" than everybody else.

:puke2:

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Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Never ceases to amaze me that Scientologists will tell you "reality is agreement" but none of them can agree on what OT means. By their own logic, this lack of agreement must, therefore, conclude that there is no such thing as OT.
 

newlife

Patron
I suspect that some people don't appreciate just how effective Scn is at controlling you because so MANY definitions and terms are "open-ended". Meaning that, just as AngeloV so accurately points out, so many terms can mean anything to anyone.

That wouldn't be so bad, at least in normal life where people can freely communicate and discuss such things. But, always keep in mind that in the ultra-controlled environment of Scientology, that 1) all discussion of case is forbidden (per policy), and 2) ALL discussion of the "tech" is forbidden (Verbal Data heavily pounced upon whenever it occurs).

So, within the confines of the Church environment, nobody much compares notes, and most people walk around with VERY DIFFERENT ideas about all sorts of things related to Scientology, but they don't know it. And, the only things that does get promoted and constantly pushed in their faces are "wins", success stories, the OT VII completion standing and telling the biggest and best "success" he or she can muster up, etc.

Also, Hubbard, as usual defines "OT" in MANY different ways in many different places. He tells you on the one hand that an "OT" can operate and effect MEST by intention alone (entirely out of body, with no need for a body, and no tendency to go "back in" when hurt), and then also tells you that you have a "hidden standard" if you EXPECT such things as a result of auditing!

People can argue what the term "OT really means" until Hell freezes over, but the truth is that it is PROMOTED in Advance Mag and Souce Mag, and by regges, and at briefings, and has been for many decades, as including all sorts of strange and powerful "parapsychological" sort of phenomena.

The biggest problem, to me, about Scientology auditing is that the results are utterly RANDOM. There is no aspect where a person gets to a point where he or she can CAUSE such things AT WILL. These phenomena "happen to you", just as do sunsets, the weather and accidents. Actually, most people are the "effect" of these phenomena just as they are anything else. They don't and can't CAUSE them AT WILL.

I have an affinity for occult subjects, because some do involve extensive training techniques where one does learn to control ones own mind, imagination, intention, etc. Some Scio-defenders might say, well OF COURSE, we will learn to do all of that above OT8.

That might be true. But, then why even call anything under OT9 an "OT Level"? Because, really, up through OTVII has NOTHING to do with TRAINING to be an "OT". NOTHING. Like so much in Scientology, it is just more PR and spin, necessary to get people to pay money and do services. If they were told that the REAL OT LEVELS start above OT8, and that everything else below that is SETUP, well, who would buy THAT? Of course, it is highly unlikely that ANYTHING exists above OT8! It seems Hubbard didn't leave it all "mapped out", and the Church managers will put together some version of the upper OT levels. But again, what they will be is anyone's guess.

One of the largest flaws of Scientology is THIS:

Nobody is going to DROP "OT powers" onto you by paying money and answering some questions in session. It will not happen. If you want to get good at anything, you must PRACTICE, and practice long and hard. The same is true for "powers of the mind". But, nobody is practicing anything even remotely like that in Scientology. And, they all walk around in this cloud of delusion imagining themselves somehow "better" and "more able" than everybody else.

:puke2:

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I can agree with several things you're saying.

People in the church are not allowed to freely speak about it, and at the same time they receive a tremendous PR which causes people to get the weirdest ideas about it.

My purpose of this thread is to at least tell people what they can and should not expect from the OT-levels.
The church should do this as well.

One could argue about contradictions in definitions in Scientology.
Undoubtedly there are.
But I know a very big religion that is totally based on one book only, and that holy book contains more contradictions than 3000 lectures of Hubbard altogether.
So in that perspective I consider it a miracle that there are not much more contradictions in Scientology.
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MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
Definition of “theta universe”: thought matter, thought energy, thought space, and thought time, combined in an independent universe analogous to the material universe.
In other spiritual practices often referred to as “the other world”.

LRH promised us ability to operate things without the body in this MEST world, not in the other (spiritual) world. LRH was very "MESTy" in his claims.

...Sure, the pc did it himself.
But didn’t the auditor steer him through and caused the pc to run the incident?

This pc was not cause over planes.
He would not have been able to fly a plane or build a plane.
The auditor was to a certain degree cause over planes, because if he hadn’t been able to confront planes, then he wouldn’t have been able to run the incident.
He also caused a change in the universe of that pc.
He did it with the use of his body and an E-meter.

Why then you need somebody's agreement to bring him to Clear?
You will learn that you cannot change anyone's mind or ideas, but you can get them to do any change with different tecniques (auditing, 2WC, lying, hipnosis, blackmail).

An OT can bring about a change in the universe of others without body or E-meter.
Some can do it a little bit, others can do it better.
OT is not an absolute; it is a gradient scale.
Prove it.
Anyway, although I believe that we can naturally communicate with beings in the spiritual (theta) realm, this does not mean that
1) it validates LRH claims about OT powers
2) it is an ability gained with Scientology
3) Scientologists can do it better than others


When you talk about “cause over MEST as promised by LRH” and “not cause over our bodies” then you’re talking again in absolutes.
Of course you’re not TOTAL cause over your body or TOTAL cause over MEST. Did LRH promise that?
Yes.

If you can move your hand one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over your hand.
If you can move a stone one inch from the left to the right, then you’re to that degree cause over that stone.
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Again, who needs Scientology then?

I think you really need a cramming on the definition of OT as written by LRH.
 

newlife

Patron
LRH promised us ability to operate things without the body in this MEST world, not in the other (spiritual) world.

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Where does LRH promise anyone an ability to operate things without the body in this MEST world?

Where did he actually promise anyone anything at all?
As far as I know it's up to every person himself what he gets out of Scientology.
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Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Huh?

Where does LRH promise anyone an ability to operate things without the body in this MEST world?
Many, many places. Check the PDC lectures, for instance.

LRH's definition of OT: "A being who is cause over thought, life, matter, energy, space and time, objective and subjective." Look up "objective", it means others can see it.
Where did he actually promise anyone anything at all?
Have you ever studied Scientology? Have you ever read anything by LRH? Have you listened to any lectures?

Just review the Grade Chart for the "Abilities Gained" for a start. Then his lectures, then his books. You'll find all his promises, but you have to actually read stuff.
As far as I know it's up to every person himself what he gets out of Scientology.
So, there is no difference between Scientology and all other self-help systems, philosophies and fads?

I love this: When Scientology doesn't work, it's all your fault -- the ultimate justification for no results.
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
Scientology is a philosophy that says it has a route that can be used to achieve a state of “being cause over life, thought, matter, energy space and time.”
This route is called “The Bridge”.

Some have been following this route with more or less succes, but when reaching the end of the Bridge, they looked at their life or the state they were in, and they decided that they were not at ALL cause over life or MEST, and therefore concluded that the Scientology philosophy was a scam.

Others never tried to follow this route themselves, but they knew other people who had been deceived and abused by an organization who claims to apply this Scientology philosophy, and therefore they as well concluded that the Scientology philosophy was a scam.

Others cannot conceive of any higher spiritual state at all, and therefore are bluntly fighting any and all ideas in that direction.

Some people in Scientology have a certain concept of OT that consist of “being total cause” or “being able to cause anything they want, in the fullest sense of the word.”
It is a concept similar as the concept of GOD that my father and mother teached me when I was young.
God was allmighty. All things stemmed from God. The good things, the bad things, it all came from God.
In other words: God was total Cause.

The problem with this concept is that if ONE person is total cause, then all others are at effect.
Theoretically it is impossible to bring two people to a state of total cause in the same universe. It would be also an undesirable state.
Anyone who wants to be total cause in this universe should better not try to achieve it with Scientology, because he will not reach his goals with it.
As a side note: people who are very fixated and determined on being cause themselves must be at the same time very, very busy in making others effect. Hmm…, let me see, in what organization have I seen that?

Then there are people who have the idea that “being cause over MEST” means that an OT should be able to do supernatural things, like for example bending forks without physically touching them.
Well, supernatural phenomena DO exist.
But according to the Scientology philosophy this universe is based on agreements.
In other words, everything around us exists because we all agree that it exists.
There is gravity because we all agree there is gravity; water is wet, because we all agree that water is wet, and so on.
Anyone who is in this universe, is agreeing with the laws of this universe, otherwise he wouldn’t be here.

Whatever one thinks of this theory, it means that according to the Scientology philosophy doing things like telekinesis would be a very, very complicated trick.
Personally I have no clue how people can do it.
Because they have to agree and disagree at the same time and that sounds very complicated.
To me it would be similar as driving with your car from A to B and at exactly the same time driving your car from B to A.

These things are NOT teached in Scientology.
There is NO essay called: HCOB How to bend forks.
There are NO (upper)levels in Scientology that have as their end product: “The ability to bend forks.”
Anyone who practices Scientology with the goal to achieve a state of “being able to do supernatural things” is sitting in the wrong plane.

A very important principle in the Scientology philosophy is the idea of “gradient scales.”
That means simply that concepts like “good and bad” and “right and wrong” have many steps in between them. Black can always be blacker and white can always be whiter and there are countless steps in between.
My personal opinion is that if a person can not think with this principle or does not want to think with this principle, then he will not be able to understand Scientology.
If I say about a person: “He is a good man”, that doesn’t mean that he is a holy saint who will never do anything wrong.
If I say about a person: “He is cause”, that doesn’t mean he is an almighty god that will never be effect.

According to Scientology philosophy “there is a gradient scale of OT.
It’s not an absolute. One is as OT as he can cause things.” (quote LRH)

This means that anyone, wether he practices Scientology or not, is to a certain degree OT.
Anyone is to a certain degree cause over Life and MEST.

But there are also factors in anyone’s life, which he is unknowingly or unwillingly the effect of.

Scientology is a way to help a person in removing those factors.

That’s all.

And if that was truely all there was/is to it none of us would be here contributing to this forum.
James
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Where does LRH promise anyone an ability to operate things without the body in this MEST world?

Where did he actually promise anyone anything at all?
As far as I know it's up to every person himself what he gets out of Scientology.

That is such a cop-out.

The WHOLE edifice of Scientology is built on the Grade Chart and the "abilites" listed next to each level. Some of us were around back in the 1970s, before the Grade Chart had been rewritten over and over, and Hubbard SPELLED OUT VERY CLEARLY what any person would GET (as an ability) after completing that level.

This is taken verbatim from a 1976 AOLA promo piece:

ABILITY TO OPERATE EXTERIOR

"You move into the level of operating as a thetan outside your body. The being learns to see, move and operate outside the body at will."

"You recover your ability to postulate effects directly into the physical universe, and create effects at a distance without your body".


So, there it is, IN WRITING, back in 1976, and that is pretty F'ing clear and non-confusing about WHAT is PROMISED! That is why I got in, and not so that I could better talk to girls or feel more comfortable talking in front of groups! Of course, Hubbard and the Church have back-peddled greatly since then, since nobody could actually achieve the states, but the IMPLICATION is very much still there, especially since the verbiage for the AOLA promo piece comes from Hubbard "data" on tapes and in books.

Where did LRH promise anything at all? Are you a total idiot?

One might say that he "heavily implied" MANY THINGS, but the basis of KSW is that "if you do this, then because THIS WORKS, then THIS will happen"! He is constantly telling every Church member that it works, that it ALWAYS works (gets results), and if that isn't "promising", I don't know what is.

Yes, sure, anybody only gets out of any subject what you put in to it in terms of study, application, with time and attention. But, there has to be something THERE initially "to be gotten out" - other than delusion and imaginative excursions into fantasy-land. If "OT" is simply & largely some imaginative "ideal scene" of Hubbard's, some fictional creation, then extensive "hard work" and "delving into the subject" won't make any difference (outside of the effect of how "belief" affects people in real and unreal ways).

Your response above does little more than increase my suspicions that you are runnng some program here.

I have uploaded two attachments of actual scans of this 1976 AOLA promo piece. Anyone with an "older" copy of the Grade Chart can find these "promised abilities" also.

Where does Hubbard promise?:duh: Cripes, you have to be a fool to say such a thing. Oh, I know, it was due to errors in "transcription"!

With your logic, then if I fail to get out of psychiatry something good, then it must be because "I didn't try"? Or the same for EST (Erhard Sensitivity Training)? Or, if I fail to get anything out of channeling messages from the Grand Bumpkin on Venus, well then it must be because I didn't put enough time and energy into it? Shall I give more examples?

Oh, and if nothing is "promised", it would be nice if this Church Hubbard created, in excruciating micro-detail, put a sign up in each Org and Mission:

"We promise you nothing. You may get better and you may not. You may get advanced abilities and you may not. We don't even IMPLY that you will get any gains at all."

Of course, THAT will never happen.

It is true. Some people fail to benefit from some study, because he or she fails to work hard.

But also, some people fail to benefit from some study, because the subject itself is largely incapable of delivering what was promised (or heavily implied) in the first place.

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newlife

Patron
LRH's definition of OT: "A being who is cause over thought, life, matter, energy, space and time, objective and subjective." Look up "objective", it means others can see it.

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Have you not read the earlier posts on this thread?

Being cause is not the same as TOTAL cause.

And please give me a quote where LRH PROMISES
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newlife

Patron
That is such a cop-out.

The WHOLE edifice of Scientology is built on the Grade Chart and the "abilites" listed next to each level. Some of us were around back in the 1970s, before the Grade Chart had been rewritten over and over, and Hubbard SPELLED OUT VERY CLEARLY what any person would GET (as an ability) after completing that level.

This is taken verbatim from a 1976 AOLA promo piece:

ABILITY TO OPERATE EXTERIOR

"You move into the level of operating as a thetan outside your body. The being learns to see, move and operate outside the body at will."

"You recover your ability to postulate effects directly into the physical universe, and create effects at a distance without your body".


So, there it is, IN WRITING, back in 1976, and that is pretty F'ing clear and non-confusing about WHAT is PROMISED! That is why I got in, and not so that I could better talk to girls or feel more comfortable talking in front of groups! Of course, Hubbard and the Church have back-peddled greatly since then, since nobody could actually achieve the states, but the IMPLICATION is very much still there, especially since the verbiage for the AOLA promo piece comes from Hubbard "data" on tapes and in books.

Where did LRH promise anything at all? Are you a total idiot?

One might say that he "heavily implied" MANY THINGS, but the basis of KSW is that "if you do this, then because THIS WORKS, then THIS will happen"! He is constantly telling every Church member that it works, that it ALWAYS works (gets results), and if that isn't "promising", I don't know what is.

Yes, sure, anybody only gets out of any subject what you put in to it in terms of study, application, with time and attention. But, there has to be something THERE initially "to be gotten out" - other than delusion and imaginative excursions into fantasy-land. If "OT" is simply & largely some imaginative "ideal scene" of Hubbard's, some fictional creation, then extensive "hard work" and "delving into the subject" won't make any difference (outside of the effect of how "belief" affects people in real and unreal ways).

Your response above does little more than increase my suspicions that you are runnng some program here.

I have uploaded two attachments of actual scans of this 1976 AOLA promo piece. Anyone with an "older" copy of the Grade Chart can find these "promised abilities" also.

Where does Hubbard promise?:duh: Cripes, you have to be a fool to say such a thing. Oh, I know, it was due to errors in "transcription"!

With your logic, then if I fail to get out of psychiatry something good, then it must be because "I didn't try"? Or the same for EST (Erhard Sensitivity Training)? Or, if I fail to get anything out of channeling messages from the Grand Bumpkin on Venus, well then it must be because I didn't put enough time and energy into it? Shall I give more examples?

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You are talking about a Church promo piece, Gadfly.
Scientology philosophy is not the same as a piece of Church promo.

Yes, Hubbard claimed that Scientology works if you apply it correctly.
But saying that Scientology works is not promising anyone anything.
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Gadfly

Crusader
You are talking about a Church promo piece, Gadfly.
Scientology philosophy is not the same as a piece of Church promo.

Yes, Hubbard claimed that Scientology works if you apply it correctly.
But saying that Scientology works is not promising anyone anything.

Yes, but Church Promo is based on very exactly written Church philosophy as delineated by Hubbard in the PR Series and other "manipulative" topics that are clearly spelled out within the "philosophy" of Scientology.

All any person EVER gets and sees, even for MANY YEARS once having contacted Scientology, is the endless barrage of promo and PR. This promo is not exactly unrelated to Hubbard's "philosophy". He designed it that way!

Do you seriously believe that Hubbard didn't WRITE the Grade Chart in 1974? That he didn't himself spell out very clearly the abilities as stated in this promo piece (and on the Grade Chart)? That he didn't have a very strong/total control over what this promo piece stated? Hubbard, the micro-managing, anal-retentive fellow that he was?

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newlife

Patron
Yes, but Church Promo is based on very exactly written Church philosophy as delineated by Hubbard in the PR Series and other "manipulative" topics that are clearly spelled out within the "philosophy" of Scientology.

All any person EVER gets and sees, even for MANY YEARS once having contacted Scientology, is the endless barrage of promo and PR. This promo is not exactly unrelated to Hubbard's "philosophy". He designed it that way!

Do you seriously believe that Hubbard didn't WRITE the Grade Chart in 1974? That he didn't himself spell out very clearly the abilities as stated in this promo piece (and on the Grade Chart)? That he didn't have a very strong/total control over what this promo piece stated? Hubbard, the micro-managing, anal-retentive fellow that he was?

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Yes, Hubbard wrote PR-series.
And yes the church will undoubtedly apply this with their black and white thinking to the letter, but that still doesn't mean that promo is the same as Scientology philosophy.

What's wrong with the Grade Chart from 1974?
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