Anonycat
Crusader
Quote Originally Posted by martyrathbun09
| January 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Reply
If you were following KSW to the letter, you wouldn’t be anywhere near this blog for the past three years.
NICE find.
Quote Originally Posted by martyrathbun09
| January 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm | Reply
If you were following KSW to the letter, you wouldn’t be anywhere near this blog for the past three years.
..
WTF!! Is this Marty dissing KSW? He cites the document as evidence of L Ron Hubbard having issued policy to forbid the study of materials other than Scientology. Then, as the niggle goes up a notch, Marty says . . .
. . . really? If Marty has abandoned KSW then I'm going to have to reassess because, if true, he shifts from being a cult outsource to a potential ally. Obviously, its going to take a lot more than few blog comments but, at this stage, he's making the right noises. Now, if only the lies would stop.
..
WTF!! Is this Marty dissing KSW? He cites the document as evidence of L Ron Hubbard having issued policy to forbid the study of materials other than Scientology. Then, as the niggle goes up a notch, Marty says . . .
. . . really? If Marty has abandoned KSW then I'm going to have to reassess because, if true, he shifts from being a cult outsource to a potential ally. Obviously, its going to take a lot more than few blog comments but, at this stage, he's making the right noises. Now, if only the lies would stop.
I see the same old, tired arguments from the same folks about what Scn is and what Scn isn't.
And what I observe is that those in argument are talking at each other about different times, different periods of Scn development.
Yes Hubbard had his agenda, yes Hubbard lied, yes all of that shit . . . . we now know that. And we also now know what the org scene is as has come to be . . . but the scene was not always that way . . . and that is what some of the mutton-heads in this argument seem to refuse to acknowledge.
It is now well documented that Scn, as a technical endeavor, went negative in early 1963. I wrote on this on Alan's "Opening Pandora's Box" thread.
There are several aspects of this negativity. One is that Hubbard abandoned addressing your powers, abilities, goals, dreams and aspirations in April 1963 when he wrote that "all GPMs processed to date were not your own but implants." And the tech abandoned you and your powers/abilities and focused on what was affecting you and what you were effect of/suffering. It put the source and cause of your condition of existence elsewhere than with you . . . and that is a grave, grievous error . . . it posits you are not responsible, but a victim.
Additionally, as CarmelO writes, the beginning session Ruds that used to ask for the PC goals for life and livingness and for the session, were dropped (some time in '64-'65) . . . . so now the sessions were not towards what the PC wanted but instead towards what he/she was being told to have!
Prior to 1965, the predominance of folks coming in were interested in betterment as in increased knowledge and ability to perform and accomplish what they wanted in life. Scn was an interesting new look at life and the conditions of existence, and a huge departure from the status quo . . . so it attracted the adventurous and those who were willing to step outside of the box and learn something and do some good for themselves and their fellows.
A huge part of the scenario up until 1963 was that virtually all folks that came into Scn did training and learned to audit. When I was on staff in Melbourne in '62-'64 all the staff were auditors and we all co-audited, give and get, 20 hours per week.
Indeed, the first "grades" (1964 from memory, not the Grade Chart which came out originally in '65, but the original delineation of the grades) required the person be trained on the processes of the grade to qualify for receiving them.
But with the shift by Hubbard from addressing your cause and powers/abilities to focus on what's wrong with you that needs be removed, we had a vast shift in emphasis to victimhood.
You see this with the Dissem Formula when it was introduced ('65?) effectively all recruitment of newbies focused on what is wrong, what is "ruining" the person's life . . . and with this change in focus also was created the two paths of Scn . . . the PC side of the Grade Chart, and the Auditor/Training side.
So, by then, in '65 we had the victim side of the "bridge" and the more causative side of the training . . .
I spell all this out because this history of change that occurred in Scn is not something folks who came in after '65 understand. It might be ancient history to them . . . and superficially "known," but is sure as hell is not understood by them; and so we see the arguments we see.
There was a time in Scn, early Scn, when folks were honored as to their personal wants, dreams, aspirations, powers and abilities and they were given the tools (processes) and freedom to pursue them and to benefit from the application of the tech in the way that best suited them.
And we had big time, phenomenal gains and wins from it. Their was no KSW straight-jacket. Auditors honored each other and worked to help each other both is session and outside of session with discussion of the tech and advices to each other.
The early days was truly a voyage of discovery and of benefit for those who participated.
However, having said that, it is also true that the tech was incomplete . . . we knew that as we knew it was still being researched and developed. The tech, in retrospect now, can also be seen to contain some errors . . . . but one should not be too critical of that as it was a learning curve and research.
The only valid gripes any should and ought to have about it all, in my view, are these issues: a) Hubbard lied to us about so many things, b) his research methodology was so superficial, skimpy and flawed that areas addressed were routinely left incomplete or remained containing critical errors . . . and this all the while he lied to us about his competence and thoroughness and all the bullshit about him "rising above the bank."
So, what we have had as "Scn" is two distinct scenarios: one wherein we individually were and could be responsible for our actions and progress; and the other wherein you are assumed to not be responsible where in "upper management" has to control and direct you, wherein you as an auditor are not allowed to address the case you see in front of you but are told what to deal with by the system, and as a student of the subject you are not allowed the courtesy and right to "discuss" the tech in any way!
And as I have said above, these are two distinct and different times in the history and development of the entity we call "Scn."
But, I've said it before, and will do so again: the early days were FUN! And my participation in them benefited me enormously.
RogerB
I had fun in Scientology. It was a secretive cult and I was naive.
I clicked the link, and Veda's post was:
yes, thanks. I guess you didn't read my post and scroll down on the link. That's ok, wasn't posting for you but maybe others who lurk.
Sorry I didn't get it. There is a function to copy the URL to a specific post, but it was the URL to the thread that you posted. No worries if you don't want to, but if you do, I'd be interested in seeing exactly what got you going.
Good stuff, sir!
Another reason the cult can never do a "...massive reform, revision and restructuring" (even if they wanted to violate Hubbard's SP/Squirrel scripture) is that they can never do the "Danger Formula" where they must "find out what out ethics they are involved in" and "get it honest and straight". How would that look if they even dared to try it?
It would be a "mandatory briefing" to all Scientologists worldwide where they would say: "Hey, we have some pretty bad news. We have been lying about being a religion in order to scam the tax agencies. And we have been raising hundreds of millions in donations for all those fraud projects like Ideal Orgs, SuperPower and Library Donations. Sorry about that. And we lied about Clear and OT too. Our bad. Listen, there is a bright side to this. After we register properly as a business and begin paying taxes and minimum wage, we will not be selling Clear or OT any more. But we will call it, instead, "Ron's feel good talk therapy". We are getting rid of the Sea Org because that was a total embarrassment and we didn't do anything except cave people in and take their money. We are going to openly admit to the public that Xenu is the most important thing in Scientology because it is the OT levels and without that we believe we are doomed for eternity. We are going to admit that we never stopped disconnection and that Fair Game was never canceled. We are going to admit all of our decades of criminal activities. We are also going to release all the crazy secrets we have been hiding about Ron, starting with the fact that he was really nuts and sick when he died and that he didn't go to Target II. Sorry about all that. We are also going to stop lying every time a whistleblower tells what we are doing. We are going to fire all of our lying lawyers and criminal PIs too. And we are going to release our financial records so you can see the hundreds of millions of dollars that went to Hubbard and Miscavige personally. The whole thing is really FUBAR and we don't know if its even possible to keep Scientology alive after this gets out, but we just don't want to lie, defraud and steal people's money and dreams any more. We hope you will forgive us and forgive yourselves. And last of all, none of us know any more than you do. Miscavige didn't know any more and Hubbard didn't know any more. Nobody had any special abilities. There were no Clears or OTs ever made we are very sorry to say. There was no "Total Freedom" and no "eternity" and no "Bridge". Honestly? There wasn't anyone who could go exterior either including Ron, he just theorized or made all that up. One more thing...all the people we said were "SPs" were actually honest people telling the truth about what we were doing all this time. Finally, we won't be trying to sell you anything after this event. You are free to leave any time you want. And, no, you don't have to write a success story either."
Of course, he does. And so do plenty of other people still calling themselves Independent Scientologists.
__________Hi there!
Originally Posted by TGI
I also think that others who are Indies read ESMB. But I'd bet a thousand bucks Marty doesn't.
Originally Posted by Marty Rathbun
Veda, TGI's right, pay her the grand! (I never read anything on ESMB).
. . . keep Scientology alive . . .[/COLOR]
chrismann9 | January 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Reply
I think this has some truth and some conclusions you draw that perhaps were helpful for you, but I’m not sure if they align with my views. I dont see how it is helpful to have an open discussion on everyones opinions of how LRH was wrong, of target, off the rails. How he created policies that were incorrect or his pinions and attitudes regarding certian things were off base or based on his own personality faults. I believe in your writings you suggest that perhaps his attitude towards psychiatry was caused reactively by his feelings being hurt from being attacked. I am still of the opinion that psychiatry as a whole, as it is currently being used on earth is harmful. There are of course some good people who have studied it and do manage to help people to a degree, but I would like everyone to really confront psych drugs, court mandated psych drugging, child psych drugging, and other current and historical practices of psychiatry. Psychiatric treatment generally bars spiritual, mental and physical improvement and health. Miscagive uses this truth to fill his coffers and for power the way our government uses “terrorism”. This doesnt mean its not a truth though.
I agree that communication is good, but I also think a lot of this discussion leads to group agreement. I’ve never seen anything good come out of the type of group discussion happening here recently. People are taking your views and it becomes their reality, then others add in and that sort of becomes the overriding reality. Right now it seems like this is: LRH was a little nutty, particularly towards the end. We should take what he did and pick and choose what we think is correct and not correct. We should “integrate” with other subjects and the group agreement of society so as to be less controversial. Etc. I may have that wrong.
I understand LRH was volatile and that he did a lot and created a vast subject and that not all of it fits every situation- policies for example. I think a judgement of it ideally should be something someone gets after he understands it and can apply it instead of just scholarly quoting of policies or tech. I think your recent surveys and discussions bypass that step and invite a reactive group agreement. People giving their opinion on auditing, past lives, OT3 etc who only know of these things from what they read on the internet or this blog helps nothing IMO. it doesnt forward any understanding, it only creates the kind of enviroment you see over on the ESMB. If I want information about OT3 I’ll ask Tom Martiniano or guys I think might have experience with it- Dan Koon, Jim Logan, Les Warren etc, or you. Preferably guys who have or are auditing it. I think Tom even supervised it. Those are the kind of opinions I want. I think they would tell me to do it when I get there and focus on my next level. What would you tell me about it?
I fully understand that the Church and the subject itself to some degree is off the rails. I still think the correct target is Miscavige and perhaps our own laziness and acceptance of outpoints in the Church.
I also believe that application and preservation of the unaltered tech of Scientology is probably the best medicine. Mosey observed you applying Scientology and recognized it was good and then you audited her and I assume she got the results of that which are a beautiful, amazing, life changing thing. I dont understand why the urge to make it more complicated than that. Why cant we just handle the suppression and have more of that?
All the anaysis and opinions and group think, I dont think it goes anywhere. It’s a dead end Marty. In the beginning the blog was very valuable because there was pure data. People (and you) who were there were recounting firsthand experiences. Knowedgable people were writing valuable, applicable data that was de-enturbulating a lot of people. Personal opinions, discussions of tech by untrained persons, critiques of policy (always negative) are much less helpful in my opinion. I do not believe that publishing your personal views on what is wrong with Scientology and LRH is going to lead to a “healing” or greater acceptance by society.
That to me seems like a wrong target. I think a correct target would be a removal of Miscavige, and correction back to standard actions that result in the VFP’s of Scientology and Oganizations.
Is that where this is heading? If you cant say yes, I would like to know why
Good stuff, sir!
Another reason the cult can never do a "...massive reform, revision and restructuring" (even if they wanted to violate Hubbard's SP/Squirrel scripture) is that they can never do the "Danger Formula" where they must "find out what out ethics they are involved in" and "get it honest and straight". How would that look if they even dared to try it?
It would be a "mandatory briefing" to all Scientologists worldwide where they would say: "Hey, we have some pretty bad news. We have been lying about being a religion in order to scam the tax agencies. And we have been raising hundreds of millions in donations for all those fraud projects like Ideal Orgs, SuperPower and Library Donations. Sorry about that. And we lied about Clear and OT too. Our bad. Listen, there is a bright side to this. After we register properly as a business and begin paying taxes and minimum wage, we will not be selling Clear or OT any more. But we will call it, instead, "Ron's feel good talk therapy". We are getting rid of the Sea Org because that was a total embarrassment and we didn't do anything except cave people in and take their money. We are going to openly admit to the public that Xenu is the most important thing in Scientology because it is the OT levels and without that we believe we are doomed for eternity. We are going to admit that we never stopped disconnection and that Fair Game was never canceled. We are going to admit all of our decades of criminal activities. We are also going to release all the crazy secrets we have been hiding about Ron, starting with the fact that he was really nuts and sick when he died and that he didn't go to Target II. Sorry about all that. We are also going to stop lying every time a whistleblower tells what we are doing. We are going to fire all of our lying lawyers and criminal PIs too. And we are going to release our financial records so you can see the hundreds of millions of dollars that went to Hubbard and Miscavige personally. The whole thing is really FUBAR and we don't know if its even possible to keep Scientology alive after this gets out, but we just don't want to lie, defraud and steal people's money and dreams any more. We hope you will forgive us and forgive yourselves. And last of all, none of us know any more than you do. Miscavige didn't know any more and Hubbard didn't know any more. Nobody had any special abilities. There were no Clears or OTs ever made we are very sorry to say. There was no "Total Freedom" and no "eternity" and no "Bridge". Honestly? There wasn't anyone who could go exterior either including Ron, he just theorized or made all that up. One more thing...all the people we said were "SPs" were actually honest people telling the truth about what we were doing all this time. Finally, we won't be trying to sell you anything after this event. You are free to leave any time you want. And, no, you don't have to write a success story either."
I don't think Marty reads ESMB at all.
TG1
But I would guess that Mosey does. It's right per the Simon Bolivar PL! You know the one
where Simon Bolivar's old lady (Manuela Saenz) handles all the intelligence collection for him
and has his back.
Before she was intimated and cowed by Miscavige and his henchmen, Mary Sue had that roll
for Hubbard. Mary Sue was often mentioned when I was in the GO as having the job of
Manuela Saenz.
Hey Pooks! While supplies last, we're running an OT LADIES ONLY SPECIAL with a 50% OFF SALE in the bookstore today only....on our lovely line of Simon Bolivar bookmarks!
It's a beautiful nostalgic reminder of how Mary Sue flourished and prospered by flowing power to our Founder.
But I would guess that Mosey does. It's right per the Simon Bolivar PL! You know the one
where Simon Bolivar's old lady (Manuela Saenz) handles all the intelligence collection for him
and has his back.
Before she was intimated and cowed by Miscavige and his henchmen, Mary Sue had that roll
for Hubbard. Mary Sue was often mentioned when I was in the GO as having the job of
Manuela Saenz.
But I would guess that Mosey does. It's right per the Simon Bolivar PL! You know the one
where Simon Bolivar's old lady (Manuela Saenz) handles all the intelligence collection for him
and has his back.
It would be more accurate to say that Hubbard put the CMO over the GO, and had his henchman, David Miscavige, remove Mary Sue.
If a vote were taken of the posters on Marty Rathbun's blog, today, I wonder how many (assuming their posts were allowed) would still hold to the idea that it was Miscavige, not Hubbard, who threw Mary Sue under the bus?
As expressed in Marty Rathbun's 'Ode to L. Ron Hubbard':
You said your legacy would be the tech
but the dictator said otherwise
and the church began its demise
and hurt came to those who would object
You said there was no hidden data line
but the dictator said he knew better
and burned all of your policy letters
and the church went into long term decline
You said the tech was timeless and free
but the dictator wanted power and cash
and made your truth a confusing hash
and status and greed replaced the state of OT
You acknowledged the loyalty of your gracious wife
but the dictator used her as a stepping stone
and she died forgotten, friendless and alone
and thus he erased your dear Manuela [Simon Bolivar's girlfriend] from your life
You raised three fine children and one who died too soon
but the dictator wanted them forgotten too
and your progeny turned from sunshine to blue
and the many who loved you wept under a sorrowful moon
You had faith that your friends would make it come out right
but the dictator mis-used your treasure to enervate them
and black dianetics, reverse scientology internecine mayhem
and with violence did he destroy their willingness to fight
You said only truth could penetrate thick armor plate
and though the dictator protested this fact
it was your ace in the hole that has our back
and everyday now more are working to reverse your fate
And alas, it may take time and a perilous struggle
but we assure you it is too late to reverse our tide
you’ve got friends to the end of time on your side
and come hell or high water we’ll emerge from this jungle
Because we know you were right that the truth shall set us free
and that is one thing no dictator will ever take away
it will be your real friends standing at the end of day
humanity freed, the only proper acknowledgment of the