What will become of senior SO members?

Never In 99

New Member
I sometimes wonder, what will become of senior SO members? As far as I know most have no savings, no retirement plan, no social security, no medical insurance, they probably don't own a home or much of anything of value. Does the org. promise to house and care for them when they can no longer work? What if they have serious medical problems? What sort of life can they look forward to? Will some of them simply end up depending on family members for support, or out on the street?
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
The church takes its responsibility for the well-being of its hard-working SO staff members very seriously, and maintains and administers a large number of retirement homes for the benefit of those who have attained retirement age. They are provided with free meals, clothing, computers, travel allowances and healthcare etc.

Of course, this only applies once they have demonstrated that they have genuinely achieved the stated end-phenomena of their auditing grade, as the church does not provide the above benefits to no-case-gain SP's and PTS's.
 
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Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I sometimes wonder, what will become of senior SO members? As far as I know most have no savings, no retirement plan, no social security, no medical insurance, they probably don't own a home or much of anything of value. Does the org. promise to house and care for them when they can no longer work? What if they have serious medical problems? What sort of life can they look forward to? Will some of them simply end up depending on family members for support, or out on the street?

There is another thread dealing with this same question - it is a very good question.

Theoretically of course elderly SO members are so far ahead of the wogs in their causativeness over their physical bodies that they are very nearly the same as most 30 year olds right up to the moment when their CSW gets approved for them to causatively drop the body (which is always done after 2pm on Thursdays of course) in some sort of broom closet around the org. Usually when the elder SO member passes his or her 110th birthday.

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

From what I know elderly Sea Org members are shunted off to municipal/county home care for the indigent (which is probably as bad as it sounds. I have heard - but have absolutely no proof - that they are told not to discuss scientology. In some areas I gather that some of the elderly work part time in the orgs. I shudder to think what happens to elder so who are booted out after 35 years or more of being in.

I have no idea what happens in the UK, EU or Oz.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Yes, this issue is a travesty of monstrous proportions . . .

You see, all staff, including at missions, are instructed that since they are ministers of the cherch they are exempt from the need to pay taxes on their "income" . . .

Helen Geltman is the case I am intimately familiar with.

Thus, after the mission-holder meeting bloodbath she had her mission ripped off and she was cast out to fend for herself . . . . well, as a minster who had not paid any taxes she had no record of employment and "unemployment" benefits . . . err, were hard to come by.

Helen was already at retirement age, and had she paid any taxes and had the Cherch paid any social security tax contributions for its staff . . . which the cherch asserts they do not have to . . . well, Helen was not eligible for either SS payments or Medicare . . . .

She died, destitute and in ill health, not able to get the government services those who play by the rules outside of the cherch can benefit from.

So, you folks on staff, slaving away to save the world . . . be warned: charity begins at home!

R
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
The thread is about senior SO members. I have a feeling that DM has already made provision for his senior years, and maybe others close to him at the top have too.

The majority of SO members are unlikely to be in the same boat.

Just on Mick's comment here though;

" I have heard - but have absolutely no proof - that they are told not to discuss scientology."

There is an issue if any of them get Alzheimer's or any other form of dementia as this would of course be terribly bad PR for the CofS, not to mention the fact that someone with dementia can hardly be expected to follow bulletins or Flag orders or anything else. Telling someone who can't even recognise their own relatives or manage their own daily care that they shouldn't discuss scientology would be pretty pointless.

It wouldn't surprise me, therefore, if senior SO people were discouraged from using "wog" retirement home facilities for themselves or their older relatives, and were kept cloistered away from the public in such a way that their decline would be kept secret.
 
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CO2

Patron Meritorious
A friend of mine, who just turned 64, has been a SO member since about 1971. He has told me about the "home" where those, who can't work anymore, are relegated to. He saw it - was there ..... He has made it clear, he won't be going there. It is something he wouldn't describe or sugar coat.
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
A friend of mine, who just turned 64, has been a SO member since about 1971. He has told me about the "home" where those, who can't work anymore, are relegated to. He saw it - was there ..... He has made it clear, he won't be going there. It is something he wouldn't describe or sugar coat.

I know of an elderly SO member that went through a Fitness Board, declared unfit for staff and was off loaded. He moved in with his daughter as he had no money or benefits. Had it not been for his daughter, he would've been homeless.

Dunno which is worse, going to a decrepit home or being homeless.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Not long after blowing the SO and quitting an equally poorly paid job working for a scientologist, I found myself living in an abandoned caravan in the middle of a farmer's field in the south west of England. My wife had gone back to mother, I had no money, no family to help me out and knew nobody on the 'outside' to turn to for help.

Going from there to getting back to London, finding a place to live and getting a real job was actually a tough call, but I was in my late twenties and in good health and I managed to do it. What it must be like to be out on the street at over 60 years of age is a frightening prospect
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
A friend of mine, who just turned 64, has been a SO member since about 1971. He has told me about the "home" where those, who can't work anymore, are relegated to. He saw it - was there ..... He has made it clear, he won't be going there. It is something he wouldn't describe or sugar coat.

This subject has been covered at length in other threads but much of the information is old. It is helpful to have more current reports, so thank you!

Sea Org members are subject to Fitness Boards which determine ongoing eligibility based on criteria such as performance, ethics actions, affiliation with hostile persons or groups, debts, medical condition, etc. According to this article the Policies regarding Fitness Boards has been revised several times but I expect they are difficult to find as the detailed procedure for offloading the sick and elderly could prove embarrassing:

http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/hubbard_vs_freeloaders.html

I expect they have become adept at transitioning elderly offloads onto public services out of a need to avoid negative PR.

One thing about recruiting young people is they may not have had to deal with issues such as Social Security, Healthcare, Retirement Plans, Taxes or even the realities of paying their own rent, maintaining resumes or marketable skills, etc. They may not know these subjects even exist or how to ask the pertinent questions and then they live in an insulated environment where they do not have access to the internet, material or people who can educate them. Even if they did, if they are working 100-130 hours a week they may not have the time or energy to pursue it.

Idealistic college students transition straight from a subsidized life into the Sea Org and then 50 some odd years later they get Fitness Boarded. Young people often have little concept of how important proper utilization of their most productive years are towards establishing the means for independent retirement and can trade it off cheaply. Young people also discount the need to function as part of a family unit in order to provide mutual logistical support so not only are the elderly Sea Org members often completely dependent but their elderly parents may have also suffered for lack of an adult child's care and support.

If a Sea Org member is willing to disconnect from and abandon their own parents and family on the basis of something as arbitrary as an SP Declare then why should anyone expect them to be concerned with each other's retirement package?
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
What little staff pay we had, some of it went towards Social Security, Federal and State taxes. However the Social Security statements say I had ZERO contributions the years I was on staff. The employer is also required to match your SS taxes.

At that time, the only staff exempt from Social Security taxes were those that held the Minister's cert.

I wonder what happened to the withholding taxes that was taken from our paychecks. Any past FBO or Treasury staff remember actually writing out the checks for the above taxes and mailing them out?
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
This subject has been covered at length in other threads but much of the information is old. It is helpful to have more current reports, so thank you!

Sea Org members are subject to Fitness Boards which determine ongoing eligibility based on criteria such as performance, ethics actions, affiliation with hostile persons or groups, debts, medical condition, etc. According to this article the Policies regarding Fitness Boards has been revised several times but I expect they are difficult to find as the detailed procedure for offloading the sick and elderly could prove embarrassing:

http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/hubbard_vs_freeloaders.html

I expect they have become adept at transitioning elderly offloads onto public services out of a need to avoid negative PR.

One thing about recruiting young people is they may not have had to deal with issues such as Social Security, Healthcare, Retirement Plans, Taxes or even the realities of paying their own rent, maintaining resumes or marketable skills, etc. They may not know these subjects even exist or how to ask the pertinent questions and then they live in an insulated environment where they do not have access to the internet, material or people who can educate them. Even if they did, if they are working 100-130 hours a week they may not have the time or energy to pursue it.

Idealistic college students transition straight from a subsidized life into the Sea Org and then 50 some odd years later they get Fitness Boarded. Young people often have little concept of how important proper utilization of their most productive years are towards establishing the means for independent retirement and can trade it off cheaply. Young people also discount the need to function as part of a family unit in order to provide mutual logistical support so not only are the elderly Sea Org members often completely dependent but their elderly parents may have also suffered for lack of an adult child's care and support.

If a Sea Org member is willing to disconnect from and abandon their own parents and family on the basis of something as arbitrary as an SP Declare then why should anyone expect them to be concerned with each other's retirement package?

Good question. I suppose to play devil's advocate here the orthodox Scn answer would be that the difference is that increasing infirmity necessitating eventual retirement happens to everyone and so provision ought to be made on that basis, whereas disconnection only happens to SPs and DBs.

In practice of course it doesn't work out like that in either case, but still...
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good question. I suppose to play devil's advocate here the orthodox Scn answer would be that the difference is that increasing infirmity necessitating eventual retirement happens to everyone and so provision ought to be made on that basis, whereas disconnection only happens to SPs and DBs.

In practice of course it doesn't work out like that in either case, but still...

Sea Org members are carefully defined to be under the specific orgs for which they are contracted in order to limit financial and legal liability from other church entities. Does anyone ever recall FPing (Financial Planning) for the care of staff who could no longer work due to old age or infirmity?

There have been a few reports of people who were permitted to stay in Sea Org berthing.

Is there now a central unit that manages offloads, transfers to retirement homes, the dying or "invalid"?
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
What little staff pay we had, some of it went towards Social Security, Federal and State taxes. However the Social Security statements say I had ZERO contributions the years I was on staff. The employer is also required to match your SS taxes.

At that time, the only staff exempt from Social Security taxes were those that held the Minister's cert.

I wonder what happened to the withholding taxes that was taken from our paychecks. Any past FBO or Treasury staff remember actually writing out the checks for the above taxes and mailing them out?


Oh those taxes went to the true government, little dave.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
What little staff pay we had, some of it went towards Social Security, Federal and State taxes. However the Social Security statements say I had ZERO contributions the years I was on staff. The employer is also required to match your SS taxes.

At that time, the only staff exempt from Social Security taxes were those that held the Minister's cert.

I wonder what happened to the withholding taxes that was taken from our paychecks. Any past FBO or Treasury staff remember actually writing out the checks for the above taxes and mailing them out?

I don't think there was ever a year that I made enough to require filing a return. That may be different now with Obamacare. As I understand it, even people under the poverty level need to file a return to prove that they have insurance in order to avoid the penalty. In my day a staff member's return was their personal matter and there was no professional assistance provided by the church. It typically costs at least $300. to have a professional service prepare a return. If the church doesn't provide assistance, I imagine that will have to come out of the staff member's pocket and they will need to submit a request for the time to see an accountant or some low cost tax service for the poor.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I don't think there was ever a year that I made enough to require filing a return. That may be different now with Obamacare. As I understand it, even people under the poverty level need to file a return to prove that they have insurance in order to avoid the penalty. In my day a staff member's return was their personal matter and there was no professional assistance provided by the church. It typically costs at least $300. to have a professional service prepare a return. If the church doesn't provide assistance, I imagine that will have to come out of the staff member's pocket and they will need to submit a request for the time to see an accountant or some low cost tax service for the poor.

Does anybody recall ever getting a W-2 form from Treasury, listing out your tax withholding?

As far as doing your taxes, I'm middle-class and I don't use a professional. I just use Turbo Tax.

Somebody who doesn't make much and has an uncomplicated tax situation can use form 1040-EZ, which a reasonably literate person can figure out.
 

renegade

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't think there was ever a year that I made enough to require filing a return. That may be different now with Obamacare. As I understand it, even people under the poverty level need to file a return to prove that they have insurance in order to avoid the penalty. In my day a staff member's return was their personal matter and there was no professional assistance provided by the church. It typically costs at least $300. to have a professional service prepare a return. If the church doesn't provide assistance, I imagine that will have to come out of the staff member's pocket and they will need to submit a request for the time to see an accountant or some low cost tax service for the poor.

Even if the staff member did not file taxes (made under 3000.00 annual income), the withholding taxes are still due to the appropriate party. The IRS and State are very strict and views it as stealing from the government. When found out, they will charge penalties plus interest and it doesn't matter if the IRS catches you a year later, you are still responsible.

Even the scn companies who wanted to help moonlighting staff members and paid them cash, got into serious IRS trouble. The employer crying private contractor services were not let off the hook and were held responsible for the back taxes, interest and penalties.
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
Meanwhile, back in the real world....

From what I know elderly Sea Org members are shunted off to municipal/county home care for the indigent (which is probably as bad as it sounds. I have heard - but have absolutely no proof - that they are told not to discuss scientology. In some areas I gather that some of the elderly work part time in the orgs. I shudder to think what happens to elder so who are booted out after 35 years or more of being in.

I have no idea what happens in the UK, EU or Oz.

From what I have read, this is pretty much accurate. Long time devoted members get shoved into a 5th class nursing home where bare minimum help and love and attention is given. It can be a down right nightmare in some of these places. I know because I put my Mom in a 5 star nursing home (Beechwood) and she was treated like shit. These lovely people that gave their lives to Scn are treated like dirt. This cult is despicable.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
T
There is an issue if any of them get Alzheimer's or any other form of dementia as this would of course be terribly bad PR for the CofS, not to mention the fact that someone with dementia can hardly be expected to follow bulletins or Flag orders or anything else. Telling someone who can't even recognise their own relatives or manage their own daily care that they shouldn't discuss scientology would be pretty pointless.


That was exactly my reaction to this.

My mother has Alzheimer's. I have a lot of reality on the "pretty pointless to tell them anything they should do".

:no:
 
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