What's Hubbard to you?

[Veda]

Excellent viewpoint! But it is just one of many viewpoints.

One can often get stuck with a viewpoint. But it is much better to be able to view from all possible viewpoints.

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I'm not stuck with any viewpoint, thanks anyway.

 

[Zinjifar]

Excellent viewpoint! But it is just one of many viewpoints.

One can often get stuck with a viewpoint. But it is much better to be able to view from all possible viewpoints.

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All viewpoints are not created equal, although there's no reason that only one should exist.

But, 'all-viewpoint soup' tends to be tasteless, formless and nutrition free.

Zinj

 

[lionheart]

Sure! I like to experiment with different viewpoints.



I don't know. I am not a spokesman for Idenics.

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So when someone else invalidates, you criticise them, as in what you did with Boldgirl, but when you do it you are "experimenting", implying that therefore it is ok. Thanks. I understand you now.

You've studied Idenics and don't know if it agrees with invalidation out of session or evaluation in session?

I don't think you really don't know. I think you are playing games. Pointless games.

Lets get back to what Hubbard is...

 

[beyond_horizons]

Hubbard was, from this perspective, a pulp science fiction writer trying to make a million dollars by writing pulp science fiction at a penny a word.

Once, during a routine dental operation, while under nitrous oxide, he happened to experience an NDE (near death experience). When he found himself back and in ‘present time’ his ‘time track’ mirrored and reflected various identities and entities based upon on the various individuals, themes and metaphor of the 50’s, 60's, and 70's, as witnessed in his writings.

Through various guise's of source, truth etc., he went on to obscure the 'light ' of many of the great religious icons by founding a cult based in 'theta' and based upon an assortment of expectations. In the long run it appears he ended up screwing up, enslaving and/or destroying more lives than he saved of a special few who joined up with him to further work things out with him.

What is evident is that at various levels and at varying degrees, that he has managed to stick almost everyone he met in his 50's ~ 70's era mindset inhibiting them from maturing and leading productive, constructive lives.

We now know that the brighter of the bunch had long since moved on to help to repair the damage done to those who survived the era and for others who might follow.

 

[GreyLensman]

Hubbard was, from this perspective, a pulp science fiction writer trying to make a million dollars by writing pulp science fiction at a penny a word.

Once, during a routine dental operation, while under nitrous oxide, he happened to experience an NDE (near death experience). When he found himself back and in ‘present time’ his ‘time track’ mirrored and reflected various identities and entities based upon on the various individuals, themes and metaphor of the 50’s, 60's, and 70's, as witnessed in his writings.

Through various guise's of source, truth etc., he went on to obscure the 'light ' of many of the great religious icons by founding a cult based in 'theta' and based upon an assortment of expectations. In the long run it appears he ended up screwing up, enslaving and/or destroying more lives than he saved of a special few who joined up with him to further work things out with him.

What is evident is that at various levels and at varying degrees, that he has managed to stick almost everyone he met in his 50's ~ 70's era mindset inhibiting them from maturing and leading productive, constructive lives.

We now know that the brighter of the bunch had long since moved on to help to repair the damage done to those who survived the era and for others who might follow.

Good summary. Especially an assortment of expectations.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Respectfully Fluffy, because there IS no justification that gives the 'methods' :

When I say "methods", I'm talking about things like auditing and wordclearing.These things can be done in or out of CofS.

1. Credibility (see LRH's life, drugs,satanism,black magic,communistic similiarities for mind control and non individualism, real purpose of the emeter, the true purpose of scn, etc etc)

Well, he wasn't a Satanist--not that I'd mind if he had been, y'understand.
As to "black magick"- I personally don't think there's much of that in existence unless someone ends up dead somewhere. I've read about Hubbard's pre Scn history with the OTO occult movement and Jack Parsons. I've also discussed this at length with a friend of mine who is, in fact, an actual witch. Hubbard just wasn't a Satanist, though, again, I must say that it wouldn't matter to me. I talked to some Satanists on Beliefnet- nice folks. I don't care.

In any event, auditing is auditing. One can use it anywhere and for any purpose. Wordclearing- well, nothing black magick or druggy or communistic about that, either.

2. enough of a 'pass' to claim enough personal gains (that last) that outweigh the damage and conditioning to the person's mental health and loss of ability to be a critical thinker...slowly over time...you dont know it is happening.

I'm an educated woman. I've studied psychology in college and read much about many movements. I'm also a former member of a lay religious Catholic order. I'm more than qualified to assess myself and what I'm experiencing.

The bad I saw in CofS- and I'm former staff and I thought it was exactly like indentured servitude, if not outright slavery- was due to dichotomies found both in Hubbard's policies and also by staff who contradicted themselves constantly. Things like "think for yourself" or "be self determined or at cause" and then comes super invasive policies and some other invasive stuff they do. Which is why I left.

3. The 'methods' ARE what creates the cult, they are not even remotely mutually exclusive...they are the same. Take any course, any ethics cycle, any auditing action and all that occurs in them (good and bad perceptions).... the common thread to them all is conditioning to introvert, introvert, introvert, accept a madmans work as 'truth' ALWAYS in all instances, be a 'good' little group member by keeping your thoughts to yourself and your auditor so you never question what the h-ll you are doing, and dont forget to donate beyond your means for a goal that is so unreal to most everyone I have met....

I've posted many times, many places over the years that the majority of the problems with CofS are to be found in Hubbard's own writings and practices.

But I don't do or follow those things, I'm not in CofS, and so it's working out just fine from where I am.

I would never advocate anything harmful and have not done in years.
It's not a question of accepting anything or what some cult leader did or the fact that he was raving about demons almost every night in the months before his death- which I have on good authority and tend to believe. If I get auditing and it's helpful, then it's helpful. If I wordclear something and that helps me understand it, then it is. If I use the tone scale or the data series or the TRs and they help,then they do. I suppose I could misuse those things, but I could also misuse a feather pillow, a kitchen knife, or to make it a more precise comparison, I could misuse Christian or Vedic or Islamic scripture, too. And right there next to me would be adherents of those religions who were using those scriptures constructively.

Most things in life are double edged swords, I find.

So , no, you cannot say you don't want to be part of the cult part of it but you want to use the methods....the methods-all of them--CREATE THE CULT..THEY CREATE COMMUNISM, THEY CREATE CONDITIONED PEOPLE WHO HAVE MYSTERIOUSLY accepted that LRH is truth....even so far as to say to self silently...'I may not understand this all yet...but soon I will...I will...I will see the truth...

Look- I know you mean well and it's fine with me if you don't like Scn (in its totality) and want to describe your objections to it. More than fine. But I'd really very much appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me what I can and cannot do. Thank you in advance.

I'm not in a cult. I'm ex CofS. If I use some ideas or sit down with my husband to do TRs, it isn't communism. I did see a lot of things in CofS that were very similar to communistic and fascist regimes. Those things are not things I recommend or practice.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

That appears to be typical for you in responding from the short time I have been posting. You do EXACTLY what the church has taught you to do ... LRH would be proud of you.

Hi,Boldgirl,

Kevin is ex CofS, thinks the OT levels are crap, is interested in something that CofS would like to stamp out completely, and is at this point trying to get back in touch with his family who are still in CofS. He's repeatedly done what CofS did NOT want him to and it's cost him a lot.

He disagrees with you, but that doesn't make him a CofS dupe.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Re the communism point- well, there are things in Cofs that are totalitarian. And they originate with Hubbard's writings on the subject.

I personally LOATHE the staff system and think the RPF is an abhorrent thing. And it's very totalitarian.

So maybe that's what Boldgirl meant.

Now, me- I don't think that sitting down with my husband to do TRs or going to see my auditor to get some auditing perpetuates anything like that, and that's where maybe Boldgirl and I would part company, viewpoint-wise.

 

[gomorrhan]

That's what all you goddamned reds would say.

 

[Moonchild]

I answered that I thought he was brilliant. I do. It seems he collected information from a huge variety of sources, and had the ingenuity to put it together and create a very organized approach to getting a wide range of people to experience enlightenment, no matter what it was that seemed to be standing in their way. That he turned this into a money machine shows that he, himself, had a long way to go towards being enlightened, himself, but that he was brilliant seems hard to question.

I would tend to agree with this. Whatever his motives, LRH was IMHO a brilliant synthesist....the same has been said about Aleister Crowley.

The comment has been made, many times, that LRH "took over" where AC left off. And again, IMHO, this ain't far off the mark.

But, in the times in which he lived and produced most of his significant work (50s...60s) LRH had the advantage of being able to weave the then-burgeoning fascination with all things "Sci-Fi" into his oeuvres; something which AC simply didn't have. The "whole track"...implants, OT3 et al etc.

And undoubtedly, the man was a powerhouse? Many who care to take cheap shots are simply unaware of his output; the very prolificity of the guy seems to grant him a certain regard...in my eyes anyway.

 

[gomorrhan]

AC was restricted by communications media. Hubbard took advantage of lots of recording methods, and wasn't at all bound by oaths to any lodges (at least none that he honored). While Hubbard had the sci-fi archetypes to work with, AC was working with the Spiritualism fascination at the turn of the century, and with Kabbala. I don't know that Hubbard actually was picking up where AC left off (Crowley's opinion of Hubbard was, shall we say, not high), but he certainly seemed to think so. If you haven't read Carline Letkeman's articles about Hubbard being a magus of the Left-Hand Path, I strongly recommend them. http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1364&Itemid=92

 

[number 6]

I would have chosen "He was an evil man" by that wasn't on the list. So, I chose he's a nutcase. Close enough.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Here's an extract for Ron's "The Handbook for Preclears" (1951)

"Physically, on the evolution chain, Man is attempting a greater and greater control of hs environment, The environment does not control a healthy Man. He controls the environment.

The surroundings of a sick Man, a neurotic or an insane Man have a tendency to control him. One sees this clearly as one advances, by this new science, into happier states of mind. One's health and ability rises directly as one asserts greater and surer control over his surroundings. Conversely, one asserts better and better control or his surroundings as he becomes healthier and happier."

Those are the words of a man who believed that the way to health and happiness was to become more and more at cause over one's surroundings and over life generally. One way or another, this is a theme he repeats over and over in his writings. And yet, we now have a CofS which tries to assert as much control as possible over its parishioners.

Could this be what Ron actually wanted? I don't think so, but maybe he was blind to the possibility of this happening. Anyway, I find it hard to believe that the man who wrote this was also intending to enslave people and ruin them utterly, as others have said here.

 

[Zander]

Here's an extract for Ron's "The Handbook for Preclears" (1951)

"Physically, on the evolution chain, Man is attempting a greater and greater control of hs environment, The environment does not control a healthy Man. He controls the environment.

The surroundings of a sick Man, a neurotic or an insane Man have a tendency to control him. One sees this clearly as one advances, by this new science, into happier states of mind. One's health and ability rises directly as one asserts greater and surer control over his surroundings. Conversely, one asserts better and better control or his surroundings as he becomes healthier and happier."

Those are the words of a man who believed that the way to health and happiness was to become more and more at cause over one's surroundings and over life generally. One way or another, this is a theme he repeats over and over in his writings. And yet, we now have a CofS which tries to assert as much control as possible over its parishioners.

Could this be what Ron actually wanted? I don't think so, but maybe he was blind to the possibility of this happening. Anyway, I find it hard to believe that the man who wrote this was also intending to enslave people and ruin them utterly, as others have said here.

That brings to mind the serenity prayer:

God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.

I think acceptance and serenity is a far better way forward. Trying to be in control all the time must surely be the path to madness.

Zander

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

But it also says, "change the things that should be changed", which is pretty much what Ron's saying. If you found a wasps' nest in your attic you'd want to get rid of it I expect (I would anyway).

 

[Zander]

But it also says, "change the things that should be changed", which is pretty much what Ron's saying. If you had a wasps' nest in your attic you'd want to get rid of it I expect (I would anyway).

I don't see that he is saying that, Cats. He is talking about having greater and greater control over the surroundings. And he certainly never admits that some things can't be changed.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

It's my bedtime, I'll think about that one. It could be that you're right.

 

[Little Bear Victor]

Lots and lots of you who took this poll, consider hubbard to have been brillant. How is that true for you?
Please respond.

In the same way as LRH himself considered Hitler "brilliant," in other words capable of bringing about a lot of activity around him to go madly toward a personal goal of his, making it appear like it was the goal of all men. Besides, few have done as much work to achieve something, anything, however flawed the goal or their personality may have otherwise been.

Hubbard could be very convincing at times. Convincing enough to fool me to spend 18 years of my life supporting him. So, I would have to say he is up there with the "best" of them (As well as down there with the worst of them).

So I voted "flawed but brilliant."

Could've been the way the poll was worded.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I think I set it up so that people could make more than one choice, IIRC.

 

[Pixie]

Oh yes!!! He was brilliant alright, a bloody brilliant bullshiter!