Where Are All My Friends?

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
@ Karakorum

You forgot to put "This is OK" at the bottom of your CSW.

:oops:

1. We are openly discussing these matters and have been for many years.

2. The wonderful thing about leaving a cult is that it no longer has any power over exes (and that includes any exes attempting to dominate via 'encouragement'). IOW if Mike or anyone else has anything to say they will say it and if they don't they won't and that is as it should be.

3. Ne
ither OSA goons nor anyone else have a hope of splitting this community, a few have tried but they are always soooooo transparent.
 
Last edited:

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
IT'S NOT SCARY that you have determined your social media is being reviewed. That's called Caution and the understanding shit is real. That's because you were careless in some form or other. Not to Worry! The past is past. Your digital names are on a "probability list." If they knew for sure, it could be a lot worse. Again, I recommend to everyone to get a VPN (Virtual Private Network) which without losing speed or bandwidth, replaces your IP address with a difererent one; then no one can tell if its "your" IP. Also important is having a non-traceable email address like from www.hushmail.com or the like.

Truth is, I do not know if the COS today really has their old Big Brother analysis of the 90s anymore. But it never hurts to get out of the way of an on-coming car :) Practice safety. And try to "muzzle" the normal human tendency to reveal who you were, lol.

The Cherub
I have zero Internet presence under my real name. I realized early that anything published on the Internet is there forever, and that no matter what silly opinion I spout, SOMEBODY somewhere is going to get offended.

These days, doxxing and trying to get people fired for incorrect opinions is a team sport.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
@ Karakorum

You forgot to put "This is OK" at the bottom of your CSW.

:oops:
Is the aim of this statement to suggest that I am still an Co$ operative?

1. We are openly discussing these matters and have been for many years.
Exactly my point.We should continue this, instead of writing petitions, open letters and whatnot.

2. The wonderful thing about leaving a cult is that it no longer has any power over exes (and that includes any exes attempting to dominate via 'encouragement'). IOW if Mike or anyone else has anything to say they will say it and if they don't they won't and that is as it should be.
I am not attempting to dominate Mike. I am however calling him out on his decision to sweep under the rug his past coverups of rape and child abuse inside the cult.

He has the right to remain silent and I have the right to say that by doing so he is being dishonest and wrong.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Is the aim of this statement to suggest that I am still an Co$ operative?


Exactly my point.We should continue this, instead of writing petitions, open letters and whatnot.



I am not attempting to dominate Mike. I am however calling him out on his decision to sweep under the rug his past coverups of rape and child abuse inside the cult.

He has the right to remain silent and I have the right to say that by doing so he is being dishonest and wrong.

No, that wasn't the aim of the statement but it wouldn't matter to me if you are still a cofs operative, I couldn't give a toss either way.

In post number 75 I posted the following paragraph ... it still applies.

If you have any factual information (about actual crimes, cover-ups or any other illegal activity) you can now report it to the Police and I sincerely hope that you do so ... some people would say you have an obligation to report it.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
No, that wasn't the aim of the statement but it wouldn't matter to me if you are still a cofs operative, I couldn't give a toss either way.
Thanks for disambiguating that, because the CSW comment could have been taken either way.
In post number 75 I posted the following paragraph ... it still applies.
If you have any factual information (about actual crimes, cover-ups or any other illegal activity) you can now report it to the Police and I sincerely hope that you do so ... some people would say you have an obligation to report it.
If I could act as a witness with peronal testimony to crimes that are not out of their limitation period, I would do so. Thing is: in our investigations I have not encountered cases of child abuse or rape. The cases that constitute "real world crime" that I myself delt with are out of their limitation period.

I was not an OSA director, Mike was and thus personally delt with or seen documentation to a much broader spectrum of "real world sex crimes" in Co$. For example the things Wally did - no way Mike wasn't made aware of that at the time.

Neither of us has access to internal Co$ records or auditing data now that we have both been declared. So the only way is for Mike to act as a winess and speak about the facts, documents or evidence he seen with his own eyes and the orders he had himself issued.

As such, when it comes to rape or abuse of minors, Mike would need to step up and do it himself. I can't do it for him.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
What investigations are you talking about?
Ethics. After my stint at FOLO WUS, I held a series of posts including ethics inv. I'm not willing to go into further "career details". Too many people probably already know who I am.

Who is Wally and what did he do?
Wally Hanks who ran Mace-Kingsley. I thought this is a famous case now that it even appeard on Leah's show, I'm deliberately using his case as it is established facts by now. Wally was a fan of physical abuse of kids there. He got booted from that post becuase they found out he was also a sexual molester. They did not kick him out of scientology, just off that post :screwy:

Nathan Rich mentions him, because he lived there. So does Astra who mentions he did try to molest her. Hanks died in 2017.
 
Last edited:

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
If this Wally was mentioned in Leah and Mike's show and he is now dead anyway, what more do you want Mike to do?
Mike was head of OSA for pretty much all my line inside Co$. He will know of many more cases of rape, child abuse, child sexual abuse and other crimes that are not out of their limitation period. He will also know about OSA coverups in any of these cases.

I fail to believe that in his high position, he was being kept in the dark all the time and that OSA made its actions behind his back. That's not how they work.

We know about a handful of cases, because a few victims blew and were willing to talk. They are the minority and those victims inside Co$ will of course not speak. There's more people like Wally. Mike is the person who has the info to expose them and get them convicted.

I would like for Mike to step up and be open about all he knows about any such cases. Because this is the way to have police act against pedophiles and absuers who are still being shielded by Co$.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Mike was head of OSA for pretty much all my line inside Co$. He will know of many more cases of rape, child abuse, child sexual abuse and other crimes that are not out of their limitation period. He will also know about OSA coverups in any of these cases.

I fail to believe that in his high position, he was being kept in the dark all the time and that OSA made its actions behind his back. That's not how they work.

I would like for Mike to step up and be open about all he knows about any such cases. Because this is the way to have police act against Co$ members who ar ebeing sheilded by Co$.

How do you know that he hasn't done just that?

It's very possible that any victims would prefer that anything that happened to them is kept private or that it is only made public when they decide that it should be ... and just for the record I am not defending any predatory behaviour or any subsequent cover ups if or when they occured.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
How do you know that he hasn't done just that?

It's very possible that any victims would prefer that anything that happened to them is kept private or that it is only made public when they decide that it should be ... and just for the record I am not defending any predatory behaviour or any subsequent cover ups if or when they occured.
Well, maybe he is doing that just as I'm typing this. But its been quite a few years now since he's been out and I'm not seeing the verdicts and prison sentences. So I can only assume he is being quiet because of his own role in the OSA coverupe.

Also, you can have a trial without the victim's identity being exposed to the public.
 

No One

a girl is no one
And that's the key. If one wants atonement, then one needs to own up to the consequences of one's action. Take responsibility, suffer the consequences.

This is true in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Theravada Buddhism... and even Scientology (if one takes its ethics seriously instead of just using it for the con that the cult is).


I understand if Mike wants to avoid incarceration or other legal punishmen, he's just a man and that's a human thing to do. Not owning up to his actions should mean that he stays out of the spotlight, not play the hero and mentor.

So unless he comes clean, he won't get sympathy or forgiveness from me.
I beg to differ here, strongly. Maybe this has been said, but I couldn't read through all the replies before I felt the need to step up here and defend this honorable, sincere man.

Mike is one of the very few people who know who I am (a girl is no one). I could literally count the number on one hand. (ok maybe 1 1/2 hands).

When I first reached out to him I had a good feeling about it, but I had never wanted to reach out to Marty. I had a weird vibe about Marty, and Thank goodness for that. Mike has worked so hard and been honest and open. Have you seen all the episodes of Aftermath including the short clips and between episodes special episodes?

Mike has always shown me nothing but respect. The only thing is that if I can't (won't) come out now because of 'reasons', He and Leah don't really have any time or reason to talk with me, especially being so busy working their asses off to bring the truth out there.

I'm sure he knows Some things, but I think if he knew anything that would bring the COS down, or Miscavige down, he would put himself in the position of possible harm to expose it.

I believe it's Marty who knows and knew "where the bodies are buried". Maybe he shared this info with Mike, but even so, if he did - Mike would need some kind of evidence for it to stick.

I don't think there is any court of law that wouldn't offer Mike Immediate and full Immunity for something as hot and definitive as you are imagining he might know.

He's cried, nay, wept openly, on TV, in front of maybe 'millions'(?) of people, regarding his part at that time he was there.
That wasn't just 'acting'. It's obvious that he feels shame and regret, clear as day. Yet HE is doing something about it to the best he can.

I'm grateful he can speak for me, and others who do not have the courage to lose certain things (friends or family).
I also do not wish to subject my partner, my family, and their families to the atrocious fair gaming that would inevitably follow if I were to speak out. It's something I struggle with and that is on my mind almost every day.

We were (most) all participants of it at one time, we were (most) all victims of it at some point.

Mike is truly a stand up guy and I've never felt that my identity or anything else was in danger of being exposed by him.

With only a small handful of times we were in contact, I have only ever found Mike to be sincere, willing to correspond, and dedicated to what he is doing now.

How many of you at one time or another wouldn't have completely disconnected from a family member or friend when you were in the thick of it? How many of us wrote KRs on the same to avoid later penalty to ourselves if someone found out you knew. How many of us got others involved, recruited, regged?

It's an insidious mind fuck, that's for sure.

P.S. I often wonder where are all my friends too. I've seen a few on facebook, still in. As far as I know there hasn't been one person that has posted or asked whatever happened to No One (insert real name here). I guess maybe that is a good thing though for being UTR.
 

No One

a girl is no one
Yeah, but that is again: "I am not gonna talk about bad stuff I did, if there are gonna be any consequences". I don't buy into that crap. You walk the walk, or not. If Rinder helped to cover up pedophilia or rape, he should now be upfront about it and go to the police or FBI, even if this means he will do time. That'd be real to me.

Saying sorry with no consequences is not humility.
Are you really saying he hasn't had to face any consequences? What about the loss of family, job, fair gaming, being followed, etc.
Here you sit, with me, admittedly, anonymous yourself. Pot, meet Kettle?
 

No One

a girl is no one
Well, maybe he is doing that just as I'm typing this. But its been quite a few years now since he's been out and I'm not seeing the verdicts and prison sentences. So I can only assume he is being quiet because of his own role in the OSA coverupe.

Also, you can have a trial without the victim's identity being exposed to the public.
If it would harm an 'SP', the COS would find a way to leak it somehow.
 

No One

a girl is no one
We know about a handful of cases, because a few victims blew and were willing to talk. They are the minority and those victims inside Co$ will of course not speak. There's more people like Wally. Mike is the person who has the info to expose them and get them convicted.

I would like for Mike to step up and be open about all he knows about any such cases. Because this is the way to have police act against pedophiles and absuers who are still being shielded by Co$.
Mike potentially having the info does not mean that he has evidence or the victims on hand and willing to speak. At that point it would be a he said she said situation, without solid evidence or proof, what would the point be?

I've let him know about some things. It's always the same in the end. Am I willing to come forward. Right now that answer has to be a no.

If things worked like you are saying they do, anyone could say anyone did anything... (this is what the COS likes to do, isn't it?) it wouldn't necessarily lead to any convictions. He would need proof, collaboration, corroboration and evidence.

I speak from a position of being raised in, experienced rape, experienced and saw child abuse, neglect and abandonment.

Let's say I wanted to speak for a child (now adult and still in). This person would not speak for themselves, and possibly even lie and refute any statement I might make. On top of that the COS could produce 100 'affidavits', etc. claiming the opposite and then go about happily spilling the contents of my folders, putting up a hate site, protesting at my place of employment, etc.

What purpose would have been served here?

I can't even count the amount of times Mike and Leah have been floored and beyond shocked at things they found out about in the course of doing the Aftermath show. The many times both of them have stated 'what the fuck were we a part of?'
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I remember Wally. I remember his last name, too. I knew him. He was primarily the CEO bus driver.

I remember reading on the exscn kids that two anonymous persons stated he had abused and/or sexually assaulted them as children.

I remember not knowing who those two were and being floored to hear this.

In 1977 before even finishing the EPF, I was the 3rd missionaire assigned to move the CEO to the Melrose. I was 16 years old at the time and new to both Scientology and the Sea Org.

It was shocking to discover from the Mission I/C and in the Mission Orders that there were two people (and a possible 3rd) that had definitely assaulted children at the CEO. One was very, very bad. :angry: The second bad, but not nearly as bad as the first. Those two were Fitness Boarded out of the Sea Org and never reported to the police. My Mission I/C was very angry about the fact they weren't reported to the police. The third person was still under investigation when my mission ended.

None of those three were Wally. So imagine my shock to see his name come up on the exscn kids site. From all I'd seen of him, he was nice to the kids and decent, but you never really know.

Still, I have no firsthand knowledge of Wally assaulting any of the children. I can only state as a fact that his name was not one of the names that was in our Mission Briefing or in our Debriefing notes. At the time, I knew him. I would have remembered, I would have reacted to seeing him continue on staff. He was definitely not one of the three. I did not know the other two and never met them and they were already FBed out by the time our Mission began so I would not remember their names because this was so long ago and their names had no special significance to me, where Wally's did, because I saw him for years afterward and at that time, the CEO staff had been sec checked and nobody knew anything like that about Wally.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I have no personal knowledge of it, but there were other abusers that were not Wally. Mike Rinder would not have known what I knew then. This was a CMO Mission and up until that time, the CMO handled anything to do with the children.

I'm really sorry I didn't come forward about that years ago. :sorry: I don't have any evidence and undoubtedly the evidence that was there is long gone or locked away in COS where nobody can get to it. I was a scared teenager and in shock over everything there, but especially how the kids were treated and thought at the time that it was because people weren't following policies and I tried to fix things from within COS for years afterward. How wrong I was about everything to do with COS.

The State of California had a statute of limitations on child abuse of 3 years and 8 years at the time. :sad: I didn't know that until it was too late.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mike was head of OSA for pretty much all my line inside Co$. He will know of many more cases of rape, child abuse, child sexual abuse and other crimes that are not out of their limitation period. He will also know about OSA coverups in any of these cases.

I fail to believe that in his high position, he was being kept in the dark all the time and that OSA made its actions behind his back. That's not how they work.

We know about a handful of cases, because a few victims blew and were willing to talk. They are the minority and those victims inside Co$ will of course not speak. There's more people like Wally. Mike is the person who has the info to expose them and get them convicted.

I would like for Mike to step up and be open about all he knows about any such cases. Because this is the way to have police act against pedophiles and absuers who are still being shielded by Co$.
It is certain that Mike was never a direct observer of any such crimes. Knowing about something is worthless in a legal sense. What would you have Mike do? "I heard about something very bad" has no legal weight. None. Police and prosecutors cannot act on such rumors.

If you think he should do something now, well, what do you think he's doing? He and Leah are exposing Scientology's crimes, tracking down the actual victims and documenting their first-person testimonies. I don't think you understand about legal evidence and legal witnesses compared to rumor and hearsay.
 

Voodoo

Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow
I'll take a shot at treating the suggestion seriosly:

1. This goes down to the "enemy of your enemy" paradox.
If I were to start some sort of petition by ex-scn members, then it would be seen as an attack on the show itself, hence in a weird way "helping CoS". People critical of Rinder could be accused of being scn plants and actual OSA plants would probably try to use this mess to split the community.

2. Secondly, I would need to openly disclose my identity and I'm not willing to do so currently (though after so many posts, I imagine some people already have a good idea who I am).

3. I am hardly the best person for the job because of my history and the posts I had inside scn. I don't think any initiative within the ex-scn community benefits from having ex-OSA, ex-ethics or ex-Int management people at the helm.
Which is exactly one of the reasons I do not think its a good idea to have Rinder as a co-host.


Conclusion: The best thing to do is not to write petitions or write letters etc. The best thing is to use our freedom of speech and openly discuss these matters within the community.

If we accept that people will have different opinions and are open to the perspectives of others, OSA won't be able to split the community. At the same time, if the topic is being widely discussed this might encourage Mike to be more transparent.
You need to stop wagging your tongue behind Mike's back, and confront him like a man.

All this talk is a bunch of noise and clutter - pretty much straight up natter. You don't think he's apologized enough. Fine. Tell him yourself, tough guy, who can't reveal his precious identity while casting stones at others from the shadows.

You say you're not the best person for the job of running a petition drive against Mike. You're right about that, coward. For all your puffed up, self righteous blather about all the things Mike did wrong, turns out that you yourself are an ex Sea Org gestapo thug. How many knuckles have you broken, Mr Holier Than Thou? How many lives have you derailed, Mr Clean As The Driven Snow? How 'bout you confess all YOUR crimes against innocent parishioners and staff?

Enough with all the goddamn sniping and criticism. Man up and confront Mike directly. He can be reached at any time. There are plenty of people here who would be more than happy to help you open a comm line to him, if you don't have the confront to do it yourself.

I'll bet you don't.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Well, I think I already posted everything what I feel about Mike in this thread and would now only repeat myself. If anyone wants to question any specific points I raised, please qoute them and ask, I'd be happy to go from there.
Other than that, I'll reply to points raised by others.

Are you really saying he hasn't had to face any consequences? What about the loss of family, job, fair gaming, being followed, etc. Here you sit, with me, admittedly, anonymous yourself. Pot, meet Kettle?
Though the posts in this thread, when writing "consequences" I was referring to legal consequences.

As for non-legal consequences, both me and Mike were raised in scn, lost our respetive positions. Mike had a higher position than I did, but he was in the hole while I was happily advancing up the management ladder when I left.
We are both declared now, lost our friends and are disconnected from family.
One difference is that he seems to like his famiy and regret being disconnected, while I hate my mom and would not reconnect with her even if the church collapsed.

Does it stil feel like a case of pot, kettle, black to you?

P.S.
I don't like to engage in the "who-had-it-worse" victimhood thing and I certainly don't want to feel sorry for myself. I wouldn't go into the personal stuff, but I felt I have to reply as you used an ad personam argument.

Here you sit, with me, admittedly, anonymous yourself. Pot, meet Kettle?
I never claimed to be the good guy in the whole Co$ saga. Quite the opposite to be honest, I think my most lasting impact was sadly as the cult enforcer and inquisitor. To be fair, I did my best to rein in the most overzealous of my EO subordinates, introduced policies to that extent and tried my best to fairly investigate real crimes. I also did my best to oppose abortion and got some serious flak for it - this is one of the few things I'm still proud of.
Thus a lot of my actions I now see as immoral and wrong, especially since I no longer believed in the tech at the time.

I do not currently have any information that could lead today to a police investigation into the church. I never encountered child sex abuse. The vast majority of physical abuse I experienced living at PAC as a kid came from other scn kids, not from adults. Thus I do not have "prosecutable" info, while I'm sure he does.


I'm sure he knows Some things, but I think if he knew anything that would bring the COS down, or Miscavige down, he would put himself in the position of possible harm to expose it.
I deeply respect your opinion, but I do not share it and see no evidence to that extent.


I believe it's Marty who knows and knew "where the bodies are buried". Maybe he shared this info with Mike, but even so, if he did - Mike would need some kind of evidence for it to stick.
I can't imagine how Mike with his post at OSA could know less about "buried bodies" than Marty. How could he have not known about all the coverups done by OSA, when he was the one running it?

He's cried, nay, wept openly, on TV, in front of maybe 'millions'(?) of people, regarding his part at that time he was there.
That wasn't just 'acting'. It's obvious that he feels shame and regret, clear as day.
Again, I respect your opinion but I do not share it. The only moments where I felt there was real tension in him was when he spoke about being disconected from his family. The rest felt insincere. That's my subjective impression.

If it would harm an 'SP', the COS would find a way to leak it somehow.
Fair point, I concede that argument.

Mike potentially having the info does not mean that he has evidence or the victims on hand and willing to speak. At that point it would be a he said she said situation, without solid evidence or proof, what would the point be?
(...)
If things worked like you are saying they do, anyone could say anyone did anything... (this is what the COS likes to do, isn't it?) it wouldn't necessarily lead to any convictions. He would need proof, collaboration, corroboration and evidence.
That is a decent point, yet I feel a "he said she said" lawsuit could make the court seek additional evidence, including auditing data. I know how auditing info is stored - not only do you have multiple copies in various places, but you also have various summaries and abbreviated versions and summaries of summaries that reference one another across several systems.
What I am saying is that it would be very hard to falsify it without making it obvious that it has been tampered with or that there are records that are lost or deleted. Mike Rinder has that knowledge.

Let's say I wanted to speak for a child (now adult and still in). This person would not speak for themselves, and possibly even lie and refute any statement I might make. On top of that the COS could produce 100 'affidavits', etc. claiming the opposite and then go about happily spilling the contents of my folders, putting up a hate site, protesting at my place of employment, etc.
That's a fair point and I agree that taking up a case of a victim who is inside (and who would probably actively oppose the case and claim he/she is not a victim) would be very hard. There might still be evidence (like the auditing info I mentioned), but ti would be a hard fight. I believe its best to pursue cases of people who are out.
And I am not in any way trying to pressure or convince you to testify - as a victim this should be your decision and your alone.

Yet when it comes to OSA coverups, its a more simple issue. Mike himself is the witness and in many cases might be the perpetrator. He is the one who could come forward. He will know where the OSA data is that would serve as evidence. The FBI could make an evidence raid if warranted.

I speak from a position of being raised in, experienced rape, experienced and saw child abuse, neglect and abandonment.
I am sincerely sorry about these horrible things you experienced.

I also want to add that aside from the ad personam argument, you have posted what is so far the best and smartest arguments against my position. I'm sorry if I appear hostile, as I enjoy the discussion we are having and I think it is a valuable one to have here.
 
Last edited:
Top