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Where Are All My Friends?

Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by Voodoo, May 21, 2019.

  1. Voodoo

    Voodoo Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow

    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

    You appear to be trying to drive a wedge between ESMBers and Mike Rinder and his supporters, which is most unusual for the ex churchie realm. In fact, it's not just an appearance. You're actively doing it. You could despise Mike Rinder quietly or noisily, but you're actually rabble rousing against him, which makes you look like you've got more fish to fry than you're letting on.

    Sure. Let's keep up the natterfest behind Mike's back, because it's so much easier to impugn a man's reputation in private, than it is to confront him directly.

    How are you "calling him out"? Unless you notified him by email or phone, he has no idea you're sitting here running him down like you are. Did you notify him, tough guy? I'll bet you didn't.

    You just accused Mike of covering up rape and child abuse. Those are very strong words. Do you have any objective proof of this? If not, you'd probably better step back before you wind up in court for charges of libel.

    And you need to put up or shut up. If you have proof that Mike committed the offenses you're accusing him of, then spill it. If not, then quit all the natter and go do something productive with your life.
  2. No One

    No One a girl is no one

    @Voodoo You forgot to drop the mic. (I couldn't find an emoji for Mic Drop, shame, that)
  3. No One

    No One a girl is no one

    Thanks for that. I have to look up ad personam. I'm not attempting to vilify you or your opinions, just giving mine as well. Peace.
  4. Voodoo

    Voodoo Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow

    Such a brave crusader. Hiding behind anonymity, while hurling bricks at someone who is publicly fighting the cult and helping others to escape that madness.

    And why is your identity so precious, Mr Clean Hands? What have you got to hide?
  5. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    When I said my piece earlier, what Voodoo said is where I hadn't gotten to yet.

    My feel for this is that I'm hypersensitive now, after quite a bit at quite a cost, and when I see the POTENTIAL of someone stirring the pot, I go hmmmm.

    I think many on this board know each other, and know most of the stories that I'm still getting up to speed on.

    It smells of distraction. It riles folks up. For my part, I've got bigger fish to fry. I know the correct target, ugh, for lack of a better term.

    And this cult has proven itself, time and again, of being quite sinister.
  6. Karakorum

    Karakorum supressively reasonable

    I already posted to his blog, which is the closest I can get to confronting him not-behind-his-back. I doubt he feels like getting a visa and flying to another continent to talk with me in person. I don't trust him enough regardless.

    I have been open about being an ex ethics guy.

    Also, I can't help to wonder why you now try to appear surprised that I'm a "gestapo thug". We had a private message conversation some time ago in which I told you (in reply to your question) that I led an investigation into a director in ABLE. So you already knew I was in ethics inv. Why the dramatics now? :giggle:
    Straw man argument.

    i have never claimed to consider msyelf a "clean as snow", or a good person nor claim that my actions in scn were not evil. Example is this post:

    Want to hear it again? Fine:
    "Duyring my time in scientology I was an enforcer inside ethics. My actions were evil. I recruited people even at a point when I lost any faith in the tech. I would put people though many hours of videoconference self-criticcism, both for real crimes as well as "matters-only-in-scn make-believe-crimes".

    I don't trust Rinder for the reasons I have already stated here. If this is "noisily" by your standards, then fine - I'm done being silent about matters that bother me as I'm not inside anymore. If you think this means I'm a plant, that's fair enough.

    Just consider these:
    1. Would it make sense for a plant to claim to be an ex-ethics director? Surely that won't win me any popularity.
    2. Would it make sense for a plant to claim to be an expat in eastern Europe? Surely the forum admins can check the IP.
    3. Would any active scn member post all the things I posted in the "humor/artwork" thread? That's a lifetime worth of sec-checking right there.
    OSA is behind coverups aimed to avoid police attention and lawsuits. OSA is behind actions aimed at keeping people outside quiet. Mike was in charge of OSA for a long time. Do the math, tehr eis no way that Mike did not know about key operations of his own team.
  7. No One

    No One a girl is no one


    Just for curiosity sake, I was wondering if you happened to see any of the multiple podcasts that Mike has been on?

    I'm a strong follower of all the exscn-related podcasts and YouTube videos; Chris Shelton's, Karen's, Aaron's, etc.
    Even some of the indie stuff I have watched because of the guest who is on or just wanting to know other viewpoints, or that that Andy Nolch guy was bizarrely entertaining... like a car crash, can't watch can't look away.

    If you do know something specific that he knows, because of your intimate insider knowledge, as others have requested, it would be great if you would share it.

    I like, look up to, and respect Mike Rinder. I knew him while in the cult and he, through his speaking out and daily blog posts, I found the courage to type and read more than I would have without it.

    I, and likely many others wouldn't even be reading / posting here if it wasn't for Mike & Leah.

    That's one reason that it would be beneficial for us Anonymous UTR to speak out.

    There could be someone out there right now reading these posts who knew and respected you (or me) while in, who would now be surprised that you are out. It might just be that little final push they would need to look further and face the horrible truths we all had to go through to break the outer layer of that onion peel.
  8. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Mike and Leah have done a massive job exposing and documenting Scientology's abuses to the world. Absolutely incredible! :buzzin: Fantastic!:woohoo:What an incredible, and difficult, feat! :hi5:

    Oh, and on an unrelated subject: What have you done to expose and document Scientology's abuses @Karakorum? :cool:
  9. Voodoo

    Voodoo Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow

    Yada, yada, yada...

    I think I've got your number now, Karakorum. You talk a lot but say little of real substance. In my sixty-some years, I've seen it time and time again. Tough guy with a mouth who ducks and dodges pointed questions with puffed up wordsmithery.

    No one suggested that Mike Rinder should fly to eastern to confront a nattering ex Sea Org goombah. What I said, is that you should contact Mike directly to confront him on your accusations. You could do that by sending Mike a private message via his blog, or hell, get him on the phone. Someone has his number.

    The point is, you're still being slippery. Posting a comment on his blog is about the lowest confront angle of attack I can imagine. It's bullshit. He probably didn't even see it. Confront the man for real, or STFU - but spare us the natterfest on ESMB.

    You're running some kind of third party campaign against Mike Rinder. That is abundantly clear. For what reason, we don't know, except for the fact that he's got some pretty powerful enemies who would use any dirty trick in the book to get him shut down. You do realize you're effectively doing their bidding, don't you?

    Of course you do.
  10. No One

    No One a girl is no one

  11. Karakorum

    Karakorum supressively reasonable

    I've started to follow them, but only rcently since mid-May or so. Previously I've treid hard to get away from anything scn related.
    I trust Aaron, I also agree with the vast majority of his opinions. I think Rinder might be one of the few issues we disagree on. He did change my mind a bit on that front, because he stated that Rinder actually took what amounted to a pay cut to be on Leah's show. This made me respect Mike more than previously, thugh I'm still not ok with him.

    I agree with some of what Karen says, but I need to say we have a very different outlook because we come from very different situations, age groups etc. I'd say she is very representative of the "old-timers" who joind themselves, for her it was a spiritual journey taht was all about the tech. I'm a born-inside, for me it was a journey inside Co$ administration, because I felt I don't have any other life career options.

    Its hard for me to be objective about Rom Miscavige, because he is in so many ways similar to my own grandfather.

    I don't have an angle on Chris and I was not aware Nolch existed before reading your post.
    My reasoning is as follows:

    1. I know Mike ran OSA, which is public knowledge.
    2. I know OSA was responsible for coverups of expelled members with troubling information - this is pretty much public knowledge as well.
    3. The only insider info I have is further confirmation of no.2 - I was aware that OSA was doing some sort of operation against a person expelled and declared as a result of one of my investigations. I was not privy to any details, OSA mostly did not like our dept that much.
    4. There must be more cases of rape, child abuse and similar crimes that are not out of the limitation period. Too many people mentioned or hinted at that. You have mentioned two others yourself.

    Thus given the points 1-4, my conclusion is: If anyone else was expelled or punished by Co$ for crimes such as child molesting (or was a witness/victim and blew or was expelled), then I reckon OSA must have been made aware of the fact, kept track of the people and ran some coverup actions to keep the thing quiet. As Mike headed OSA, he must have been aware of all of them.

    This is all. No secret-squirrel insider data, just reasoning based on well known information.
    This is why in my introductory post I have included an image that, for people who knew me well, would allow them to realize who I am and contact me. So far, none of them did. Perhaps they are not on the forums, or just wish to avoid me even now that we are both out.

    I'm speaking out against what I believe is wrong within scientology, including on this very forum. I have also tried to contact a more famous ex-scn person that I trust (and this point I will not say who she/he is) to explore the possibility of sharing my story on their platform, which would reach far more people than I could otherwise (no reply yet).

    Would you have ideas on what more can be done on my end? Please let me know.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  12. Karakorum

    Karakorum supressively reasonable

    Well if that is the case, feel free to ask that "pointed question". Cause you sure are taking an awfully long time getting around to it.

    I told you I was ethics and it did not bother you at all at the time. Now that I disagree with you about Rinder, you suddenly decide that being ex-ethics is a mortal sin and pretend to be surprised by that. What's your game man?

    I wonder, if it was Astra here writing and not me, would you also throw the "gestapo and goombah" insults at her? She is an ex-ethics girl.

    So previously in post #101 you were suggesting that I'm a Shitshowology plant, now you say I am a "third party"? Make up your mind.

    It does not mean that there is a conspiracy involved just because you don't like my opinions. I'm just that - one regular guy posting on a forum. Nobody is paying me for it, I'm not a member of Co$, not an OSA operative, I'm not doing anyone's bidding. I wouldn't even be talking about Mike and Marty if it wasn't for Cherub's post. I simply replied to her post with my sincere opinions and that alone got a lot of people up in arms.

    I sincerely believe that you have no more arguments to attack my opinions on Rinder, thus you have instead decided to atatck me personally. Ad personam, "attack-do-not-defend" - that's old scillion thinking, please do not do so.

    I have not made a personal atatck on you or insulted you, please extend the same courtesy to me.

    You have implied that yourself when you said: "Man up and confront Mike directly". "Confront" has a diffeerent meaning than "contact" and in this context implied a face to face interaction.

    I'm not gonna let that man know my phone number. I could post an open letter to him if this is what you are suggesting, but I feel that would be exactly the way to drive that wedge between ex-scn people. Isn't this what you claimed you don't want to happen?

    Phone or email... after having you suggest this course of action, I am now absolutely convinced that this is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing. Because after your recent posts of name-calling, insults and personal atatcks I am convinced that you do not have my best interest at heart.

    Note that I've already posted on Mike's blog, he seems to have deleted that post (or got rid of it during moderation) so I imagine he had the chance to read it.

    One of the good parts of being outside is that we can speak our opinions freely, regardless if other people find them controversial. Thus I will gladly ignore your "stfu" comment.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. No One

    No One a girl is no one

    I know this part of your reply was for Bill, but I see you have only been looking a little while at things and may need more onion peeling friend.
    I'm glad you are exploring ways to get your message / story out. I'm trying to think of ways I could do that too while keeping my personal life intact.

    I was at PAC for quite some time, perhaps we could have known of each-other even if not knowing well enough to decipher a pic puzzle.
    I won't agree about Mike, but there are many other things to talk about and I hope you continue. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
    For a long time I didn't want anything to do with anything either for scn or anti-scn or ex... I just wanted AWAY. I've also taken long hiatuses from the board when work got too busy and life just sometimes happens.

    If I can think of anything I will let you know as well. feel free to pm me if you need a shoulder or whatnot.

    P.S. Understood about the phone number and how that made you feel like it was not a good idea to make contact but I think you could also just send Mike a private e-mail through his website Blog. He might not see it right away.. maybe he would answer and maybe he wouldn't but it's better than a public post. I've had moderators delete my posts before as well, so not sure I would take it too personally, but I wouldn't go at him like a stampede of raging bulls either, not that you would... just sayin'.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    JustSheila likes this.
  14. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Karakarum, your post above was not to me, but to No One, but I would like to respond to this particular point.

    I personally know that the Leah Remini show has made tremendous efforts to contact anyone who knew anything at all about child abuse at COS and to try to get this documented and aired on the show.

    Many people chose to remain anonymous and not come forward. There is a grapevine amongst the former children of COS who are out. They know each other, just as I know those who are out now that I knew in the Sea Org. Those who have contacted any of the ex sites, the Leah Remini show, or anyone else they knew who has been out for a while knows they have the option to come forward and be on the show or to get help and counseling. Some have been helped with Leah's fund. :biglove:

    They may be adults now, but they were children at the time and sexual abuse is a very personal, intimate matter. It's not up to other people to come forward for them if they do not wish their names and situations known. Their feelings and privacy must be respected.

    Mike Rinder has respected their privacy and this gives them tremendous relief. For all the years he has been out and fighting to expose the crimes of COS, he has never been known to ever betray anyone's trust or privacy in any way.

    When you've been the victim of sexual abuse and other crimes as a child, that's a really big deal. They have someone to turn to, and I am tremendously happy about that. If they want to stay private, that's their right. Nobody is releasing names or details without the person's willingness to come forward and that normally has to be documented to be aired for legal reasons. Saying Mike should come forward for someone else's sake puts the cart before the horse and violates their privacy. They're not going to do it that way. The rights and considerations of the victims come first.
  15. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    What have you done? "Speaking out" anonymously on ESMB which gets very little exposure.

    What has Mike done? He has used his knowledge of the crimes of Scientology to expose and document those crimes to the world -- without hiding. I'm thinking he has done everything he legally can do. He can't expose the names of those who were abused or even those who committed crimes without their authorization. He can't go to the police with "I heard about" or "I was told" as I explained before. Only the police can name names and only under strict rules.

    What do I think you should do? If you committed or witnessed crimes and/or abuse, go to the police -- not anonymously. Otherwise, stop knocking people who ARE doing something effective.
    JustSheila likes this.
  16. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    @Karakorum ... I hope you hang around. We are all in different phases of 'de-culting' and ESMB can be hard to get your head around when you first arrive, especially if you have a lot to say.

    You are very welcome here ... and I do hope you know that.

    Bill and programmer_guy like this.
  17. Voodoo

    Voodoo Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow

    Good grief, you're just one long sob story, aren't you? Did the dog eat your homework too?

    Here's the bottom line. You've got a beef with someone who's not only a public figure - he's also a member of this community. Many people here know the man personally, or know someone who does. There really aren't that many degrees of separation here.

    In such a small community, accusations like the ones you're directing towards Mike Rinder, act not just as opinion - but third party. You may think you're commenting about some distant famous person, but you're not. You're talking about someone who's a personal friend to many people on this very board.

    The point I'm making is, you can and should take up your beef personally with Mike. He's not some unreachable celebrity. You can pm him at his blog, or ask Emma to get a message to him. If you don't make that effort, and continue going on about Mike's alleged crimes, then you're just out here stirring the pot.
  18. Karakorum

    Karakorum supressively reasonable

    What about cases of: "I did X", "I wtinessed X", "I have seen documentation or auditing tapes that evidenced X", or "I have issued OSA orders to do X"?

    I was not in OSA and was not privy to the details of their ops. But I cannot imagine Mike was devoid of agency at his post. I trust that he could adress his own orders and actions in a police context.

    I have already adressed this suggestion in this thread, post #85. Any other ideas?

    There is a person who I used to know (not best friends, but we knew each other) who left and was active in the ex-scn secne in the 2000s, including speaking out in public. I'm trying to contact said person and see if maybe we could work something out. I remain hesitant to cease being anonymous at this point.

    If this was a personal issue between me and him, I'd have done so. Now that he is taking a public stand in the spotlight for the ex-scn community, I feel it would be rather odd to take a private path about public issues.
    Again: I'm stuck at the "enemy of my enemy" conundrum. I don't want to give Co$ any avenues to further attack the show and the community using me and my opinions. This one more reason for me to stay anonymous and self-censor myself when stating any opinion about Mike or Leah. I don't see a good way out, perhaps I shouldn't have replied to Cherub in the first place.

    So far in this thread you have pretended to be surprised and shocked about my ex-ethics past, despite knowing all of this for some time due to our previous PM discussion. Why the deception?

    You then made a series of personal attacks against me, insults and threatened me with legal action. This doesn't sound too much unlike some online fair-game tactics I heard about (I'm not suggesting you are a plant btw, just saying that you write in a hostile manner that discourages debate).

    All the while, I have not made a single personal attack or insult against you. I've did everythng to keep the discussion as impersonal and polite as I could.

    I'm sorry, but at this point your posts convinced me to believe that your goal is no longer to have a dispassioned, fair and polite debate in this thread.

    I'm open to discussing the mater with other persons, provided the debate is about my arguments and not personal attacks.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  19. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Well, he answered you pretty clearly @Karakorum.

    Mike Rinder's blog

  20. Karakorum

    Karakorum supressively reasonable

    Yes, I have posted this issue again to his blog and I'm glad to say we are now in a discussion. So far Mike said he provided the authorities with all the information he had. I would like to believe that this is indeed the fact, but in that case I wonder why no action was taken on the part of the authorities. I've put these questions to Mike directly as well.