Where do all the new thetans come from?

[Mark A. Baker]

... I do think space can exist without time. ...

This may well be 'true' in some absolute sense. It is certainly true with regard to many abstract mathematical models. However, one of the odd things about the physics of this particular universe is that it is apparently not true in THIS physical universe. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it accords with the actual observed behavior of physical phenomena. This is the subject matter of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Auditor's Toad]

easy question to answer.

Hubbard invented the word " thetan ". and some people then believed there really are thetans.

So why not being hubbard said thetans exist just, with the same degree of belief ( and the same degree of proof )believe there is an endless supply of thetans ( new or used as suits your fancy ).

Folks, this has gone way way too far to start with reason and logic now !

Be fair to hubbard....keep this logic and reason out of the discussion !

 

[Mark A. Baker]

easy question to answer.

Hubbard invented the word " thetan ". and some people then believed there really are thetans. ...

The part you overlook is he applied the term to that which has traditionally been known in the english speaking world as 'spirit', 'soul', or 'animus' (in some uses). In other words, his term is 'new' the idea itself most certainly isn't.

Whether or not you may wish to deny the existence of 'spirit', as some do, or agree as to its existence or even preeminence is a separate question. But belief in the concept of a 'thetan' is not at all dependent on belief in Hubbard. Even those who think Hubbard made it all up can acknowledge the legitimacy of the concept. It follows from recognizing the use of a 'new bottle' for what is in fact very 'old wine'.


Mark A. Baker

 

[paradox]

The part you overlook is he applied the term to that which has traditionally been known in the english speaking world as 'spirit', 'soul', or 'animus' (in some uses). In other words, his term is 'new' the idea itself most certainly isn't.

Whether or not you may wish to deny the existence of 'spirit', as some do, or agree as to its existence or even preeminence is a separate question. But belief in the concept of a 'thetan' is not at all dependent on belief in Hubbard. Even those who think Hubbard made it all up can acknowledge the legitimacy of the concept. It follows from recognizing the use of a 'new bottle' for what is in fact very 'old wine'.


Mark A. Baker

Taken in the context of, say, his 1953 Church of Spiritual Engineering corporation (incorporated Camden, NJ) could you not agree that the deliberate coining of a new "technical" jargon with terms such as "thetan" was necessary in order to accomplish a complete reprogramming ["Engineering"] of thought (à la Orwell's 1984) towards a thorough indoctrination into what eventually becomes a "Compleat* $cientologist" (my term; amongst whose number he did not include himself as belonging, since he apparently saw himself as superior SOURCE and, hence, above - or 3 ft behind and exterior to - such inferior membership).

(Yes, I am familiar with the hubbard's publicly stated rationale on why he coined new terms). Despite what the hubbard claimed was the reason behind the need for new terms, the well established words you used above would have been perfectly useable, even for the hubbard's purpose. Especially since the term "thetan" has added nothing essential to the existing concepts of soul, spirit, animus; in other words, anything stated as defining for "thetan" could as well have been related to the existing vocabulary ... unless, of course, one's intent from the start was to create/re-create a postulated tabula rasa† as a foundation in which to plant the seeds (via a whole lexicon of new, supposedly technically precise, terminology) of a quasi-experimental new system of thought control. And, if nothing else, the whole experience of Dns & $cn, under the guise of "research" was quasi-experimental (amateurish and slipshod) from the get-go. It remains so to this day, even if only in the various splinter versions of the FZ.

*adj. 1. Of or characterized by a highly developed or wide-ranging skill or proficiency: "The compleat speechwriter ... comes to anonymity from Harvard Law" (Israel Shenker). 2. Being an outstanding example of a kind; quintessential: "Here was the compleat modern misfit: the very air appeared to poison him; his every step looked treacherous and hard won" (Stephen Schiff).

†n.pl. tab-u-lae ra-sae (taby-le rase, -ze). 1. The mind before it receives the impressions gained from experience. The unformed, featureless mind in the philosophy of John Locke. 2. A need or an opportunity to start from the beginning.[Medieval Latin tabula rasa : Latin tabula, tablet + Latin rasa, feminine of rasus, erased.]

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Dictionary Copyright © 1997

​

 

[Auditor's Toad]

In for a penny, in for a pound

Paradox, you got it.

Hubbard started redefining words as he read along right off the middle and center of the page on how to make yourself a cult.

Wasn't too long before it became :

Hubbard said it.
We believe it
That settles it.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Taken in the context of, say, his 1953 Church of Spiritual Engineering corporation (incorporated Camden, NJ) could you not agree that the deliberate coining of a new "technical" jargon with terms such as "thetan" was necessary in order to accomplish a complete reprogramming ["Engineering"] of thought (à la Orwell's 1984) towards a thorough indoctrination into what eventually becomes a "Compleat* $cientologist" (my term; amongst whose number he did not include himself as belonging, since he apparently saw himself as superior SOURCE and, hence, above - or 3 ft behind and exterior to - such inferior membership). ...

I was trained in mathematics. Redefining terms or common concepts is a common practice of axiomatic logic systems. At one point Hubbard thought the was doing something similar (he wasn't), hence the 'axioms'.

Frankly, I don't lose sleep over what Hubbard's intentions were. The ONLY thing that ever interested me about the subject of scientology are those aspects of it I have found to be useful to my own purpose. What Hubbard may have been, or what he may have intended, don't interest me much. People often do things for selfish reasons which things others may nonetheless find to be of widespread benefit.

What is of interest to me is what is valid in the subject of scientology as an effective spiritual practice. All else is dross.


Mark A. Baker

 

[paradox]

....

What is of interest to me is what is valid in the subject of scientology as an effective spiritual practice. All else is dross.


Mark A. Baker

An effective spiritual practice; a spiritual bridge, an engineered practice (civil engineering at that ) by one of questionable sanity and intent. But yes, parts of it have been and are, indeed, effective in one form or another. Born out by the testimony of the many here and elsewhere, pro and con.

Well, okay. I think I get where you're coming from. Thanks for replying.

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks!

The part you overlook is he applied the term to that which has traditionally been known in the english speaking world as 'spirit', 'soul', or 'animus' (in some uses). In other words, his term is 'new' the idea itself most certainly isn't.

Whether or not you may wish to deny the existence of 'spirit', as some do, or agree as to its existence or even preeminence is a separate question. But belief in the concept of a 'thetan' is not at all dependent on belief in Hubbard. Even those who think Hubbard made it all up can acknowledge the legitimacy of the concept. It follows from recognizing the use of a 'new bottle' for what is in fact very 'old wine'.


Mark A. Baker

I was just going to write something very similar back to Toady but I see that you have already done it. Yea, just change the question to "Where do all the spirits come from" or "Where do all the souls come from" and then all the arguments we have made apply equally.
Lakey

 

[paradox]

Paradox, you got it.

Hubbard started redefining words as he read along right off the middle and center of the page on how to make yourself a cult.

Wasn't too long before it became :

Hubbard said it.
We believe it
That settles it.

Boy, I tell ya ... I just ran across that 1953 corporation of his, the Church of Spiritual Engineering. It was apparently incorporated at the same time as the Church of Scientology and Church of American Science. What a demented piece of work the hubbard source and his offspring corporations were. Spiritual-fucking-engineering. Gadzooks!

 

[Auditor's Toad]

The part you overlook is he applied the term to that which has traditionally been known in the english speaking world as 'spirit', 'soul', or 'animus' (in some uses). In other words, his term is 'new' the idea itself most certainly isn't.

Whether or not you may wish to deny the existence of 'spirit', as some do, or agree as to its existence or even preeminence is a separate question. But belief in the concept of a 'thetan' is not at all dependent on belief in Hubbard. Even those who think Hubbard made it all up can acknowledge the legitimacy of the concept. It follows from recognizing the use of a 'new bottle' for what is in fact very 'old wine'.


Mark A. Baker

To me, it would highly questionable whether or not a 'new bottle' was ( can't help it ) needed or wanted.

If one wants to discuss souls or spirits that could be a fun topic.

As the thing under discussion is a Hubbard word I see no harm in having fun with it. Thetan? Sure.

But wouldn't it be more fun to just pull something out of some fairy tale and discuss the origins - if not ( imagined) history - of that creature?

It'd be more fun... how about Unicorns?

How many colors do you think Unicorns come in?

 

[lkwdblds]

Einstein's "space-time" concept.

This may well be 'true' in some absolute sense. It is certainly true with regard to many abstract mathematical models. However, one of the odd things about the physics of this particular universe is that it is apparently not true in THIS physical universe. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it accords with the actual observed behavior of physical phenomena. This is the subject matter of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.


Mark A. Baker

Yes, Mark, I am of course aware of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and the term or word he coined, "space-time". For what it is worth, here is the dictionary definition for the layman.

space–time noun \ˈspās-ˈtīm, ˈspās-ˌ\
Definition of SPACE-TIME
1: a system of one temporal and three spatial coordinates by which any physical object or event can be located —called also space-time continuum
2: the whole or a portion of physical reality determinable by a usually four-dimensional coordinate system; also : the properties characteristic of such an order
First Known Use of SPACE-TIME
1915

What I was discussing had to do only with the theoretical possibility of space existing without time in some sort of other theoretical universe. I took from Hat's reply only that she thought such a thing was theoretically possible and not that this universe was that way. Hopefully, she will clear this up herself.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Agree/DIsagree

Taken in the context of, say, his 1953 Church of Spiritual Engineering corporation (incorporated Camden, NJ) could you not agree that the deliberate coining of a new "technical" jargon with terms such as "thetan" was necessary in order to accomplish a complete reprogramming ["Engineering"] of thought (à la Orwell's 1984) towards a thorough indoctrination into what eventually becomes a "Compleat* $cientologist" (my term; amongst whose number he did not include himself as belonging, since he apparently saw himself as superior SOURCE and, hence, above - or 3 ft behind and exterior to - such inferior membership).

(Yes, I am familiar with the hubbard's publicly stated rationale on why he coined new terms). Despite what the hubbard claimed was the reason behind the need for new terms, the well established words you used above would have been perfectly useable, even for the hubbard's purpose. Especially since the term "thetan" has added nothing essential to the existing concepts of soul, spirit, animus; in other words, anything stated as defining for "thetan" could as well have been related to the existing vocabulary ... unless, of course, one's intent from the start was to create/re-create a postulated tabula rasa† as a foundation in which to plant the seeds (via a whole lexicon of new, supposedly technically precise, terminology) of a quasi-experimental new system of thought control. And, if nothing else, the whole experience of Dns & $cn, under the guise of "research" was quasi-experimental (amateurish and slipshod) from the get-go. It remains so to this day, even if only in the various splinter versions of the FZ.

*adj. 1. Of or characterized by a highly developed or wide-ranging skill or proficiency: "The compleat speechwriter ... comes to anonymity from Harvard Law" (Israel Shenker). 2. Being an outstanding example of a kind; quintessential: "Here was the compleat modern misfit: the very air appeared to poison him; his every step looked treacherous and hard won" (Stephen Schiff).

†n.pl. tab-u-lae ra-sae (taby-le rase, -ze). 1. The mind before it receives the impressions gained from experience. The unformed, featureless mind in the philosophy of John Locke. 2. A need or an opportunity to start from the beginning.[Medieval Latin tabula rasa : Latin tabula, tablet + Latin rasa, feminine of rasus, erased.]

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Dictionary Copyright © 1997

​

I agree that Hubbard could have stayed with the term spirit, soul or perhaps better yet, "elan vital". I always thought that his stated reason for coining "thetan" made a little sense. When speaking of spirit, soul or animus, I believe it is true that different things may be conjured up by peopole from different groups, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Aethiests, Agnostics, etc.

To insure that everyone was speaking of the same thing, Hubbard redefined the term in his own words. His term "static" also preempted an English word used in engineering and he changed the meaning of that as well. He then incorporated the altered word for "static" into the altered word for spirit and came up with "thetan"

I don't think this was totally necessary but found it helpful in studying Scientology. For example, Christians say they "have" a soul and that their soul goes to heaven or to hell. This implies that the soul is different from the essence of the person itself. No one could say that a person "had" a thetan, the way Hubbard defined things. That was a big difference. To me, that made it smart for Hubbard to give spirit or soul a new name.

THIS THREAD - This etymology is very interesting but is a completely different topic than the OP question which this thread asks. To get back on topic, we merely need to ask ourselves where all the spirits come from.
Lakey

 

[paradox]

Regarding space-time and all that jazz. A grounded, less trippy "viewpoint." Shouldn't ego-hurt much to at least give a look-see.

Start here.

WHAT'S THE POINT?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSJjs4l_FHU&feature=related


DEBUNKING AL'S SPACE-TIME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q9IePuHut4

​

 

[paradox]

....

But wouldn't it be more fun to just pull something out of some fairy tale and discuss the origins - if not ( imagined) history - of that creature?

It'd be more fun... how about Unicorns?

How many colors do you think Unicorns come in?

How 'bout leprechauns?

DO LEPRECHAUNS EXIST?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9kA6dbaer4&feature=related

​

 

[paradox]

....

THIS THREAD - This etymology is very interesting but is a completely different topic than the OP question which this thread asks. To get back on topic, we merely need to ask ourselves where all the spirits come from.
Lakey

REPOST

There's quite a number of assumptions that go along with the question of where new thetans come from.

No traction here.

Try another question.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=559523&postcount=132

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Thetans come from that place located between Unicorns and leprechauns.

.

If Uniforms are white does that mean Leppies are always green ?

 

[lkwdblds]

Well, okay, Leprechauns came from thetans!

How 'bout leprechauns?

DO LEPRECHAUNS EXIST?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9kA6dbaer4&feature=related

​

Well leprechauns are fictitious spirits, the concept of which came from real spirits, which term was changed from spirit to "thetan" by L Ron Hubbard so as to trap people in Scientology. There is your answer. Next question?
Lakey

 

[Mark A. Baker]

To me, it would highly questionable whether or not a 'new bottle' was ( can't help it ) needed or wanted.

Probably isn't. So? Coining new words is a popular human activity. Many are superfluous.

If one wants to discuss souls or spirits that could be a fun topic.

As the thing under discussion is a Hubbard word I see no harm in having fun with it. Thetan? Sure.

But wouldn't it be more fun to just pull something out of some fairy tale and discuss the origins - if not ( imagined) history - of that creature?

It'd be more fun... how about Unicorns?

How many colors do you think Unicorns come in?

So, discuss unicorns. Nothing is stopping you.

However, if the goal is to examine increasing human potential through some form of personal or spiritual enhancement, then it fails to be clear what 'unicornology' has to offer. Thetan is at least 'on topic' if redundant.


Mark A. Baker

 

[lkwdblds]

Comparing this guy to Einstein is silly?

Regarding space-time and all that jazz. A grounded, less trippy "viewpoint." Shouldn't ego-hurt much to at least give a look-see.

Start here.

WHAT'S THE POINT?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSJjs4l_FHU&feature=related


DEBUNKING AL'S SPACE-TIME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q9IePuHut4

​

Einstein's theories revolutionized phsyics, answering some riddles about the universe. Isaac Newton's law had held up for 250 years or so but flaws in those laws were starting to appear by the late 19th century. No one could explain them using Newtonian physics. Einstein put most of those anamolies to bed with his revolutionary two theories of relativity. It is one of the biggest breakthroughs in science ever to occur.

Of course, the breakthroughs, as revolutionary as they were did not resolve all understanding but rather led to new questions arising which would not resolve. This often happens in science when the boundaries are pushed significantly further.

Einstein's theories are not going to be the last word in physics for all time. Some day, another Einstein will come along and do to Einstein what Einstein did to Newton but Einstein was a great man.

This Bozo on the video is a cartoon maker. Einstein's theory is probably over his head intellectually. The man is entertaining but lacking in depth and substance.
Lakey

 

[paradox]

Well leprechauns are fictitious spirits, the concept of which came from real spirits, which term was changed from spirit to "thetan" by L Ron Hubbard so as to trap people in Scientology. There is your answer. Next question?
Lakey

Ah. Didn't watch or listen, did'ja? S'okay, never mind.