Where is the damn treasure?

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
First, what at first might appear to be a digression. Follow.

How do we apply the scientific method to events that took place in the past? By testing our theories against newly discovered evidence concerning events that took place in the past. Paleontologist John Smith says the dinosaur known as Meatosauraus ate only meat. No veggies. Only meat. A carnivore, not an omnivore. Then a wonderful new cache of the most complete Meatosauraus fossils ever discovered is found. And the back teeth, discovered for the first time, are molars that are useful only for chewing veggies. And the bones are discovered with a bunch of half-eaten corn that, like the Meatosauraus, was swallowed up in the rapid flow of volcano lava. And John Smith says, "Oh crap."

Take history. Somebody heard the family story that Benedict Arnold betrayed the U.S. because George Washington slept with his wife. Everybody calls bullshit. Then somebody discovers hot, steamy love letters from George to Benedict's wife. The letters are authenticated. Is the theory proven? No. But people stop calling bullshit, and start paying attention.

Which leads us to the opening question: Where is the damn treasure? The artifacts? The new insights or leads regarding history? The new tech?

At this point, countless Scientologists have recovered memories of past lives. Nobody has ever recalled anything that is verifiable? Nothing is verifiable? Really? Such a poor showing. Personally, I'm disappointed about how selfish everyone is being.

Nobody has ever recalled the location of buried or lost treasure? A ship lost at sea?

Nobody has ever been able to direct historians to the location of lost artifacts?

Long ago I was friends with a guy who was working on his Ph.D. in history. His thesis had to do with the movement of the certain length of the front line during Napoleon's campaign in Russia, and whether that indicated collaboration by Russian peasants who shook off ethnic solidarity in favor of seeming liberation and ideological belief and fervor. You were there as a Russian peasant. Why didn't you help out my friend? You knew whether you and your fellow village members stuck with mother Russia, or were seduced by Napoleon. Why didn't you speak up? Why don't you? Don't you understand that your historical insights are valuable?

Nobody has recalled anything from their past life as a Tibetan monk only to have some modern day monk, or academic, say, "How could you possibly have known that? That is secret knowledge known only to those who have been accepted into the highest levels of the order?" Or, "How could you have possibly known that since we first discovered the relevant parchment last week, 15,000 miles away?"

Where is the new / old tech? Let me explain. In advanced physics in high school I learned Einstein's special theory of relativity. Everyone who majored in physics in college learned both the special and the general theories of relativity. Everyone; it was required. Thousands and thousands of students every year learn the theories of relativity.

Of course, students in the 1800s couldn't learn either theory of relativity because they didn't exist at that time.

So numerous Scientologists have now recalled their past lives as members of advanced civilizations. Did none of you attend high school that during past life? Did none of you attend college in that past life? If you did, why don't you please enlighten us about the advanced theory of quantum relativity that finally unites the general theory of relativity with quantum physics? After all, just like how every physics major in college today learns the theory of relativity, every physics major in college in your advanced civilization learned the theory of quantum relativity.

You lived a past life as a member of the advanced civilization of, say, Zobedobe. You went to college. Maybe you didn't even major in physics, but you took Zobedobe physics 101 as part of your breadth requirements. Like everyone else, you learned the theory of quantum relativity. (If you tell the truth, it was kind of boring because the theory of quantum relativity is so simple.) Why don't you share it with the rest of humanity? Or use it to invent the quantum infabtabulator? I mean, even the poorest people in Zobedobian society had a quantum infabtabulator, just like pretty much everyone in the U.S. has a telephone.

Or you lived a past life you were a member of the advanced civilization of Dowoptodowop. You at least know where your planet was, and where the star was that it orbited. And, thanks to Scientology technology, you know how long ago you lived that life. So why don't you go to an astronomer and say, "5 million years ago I lived on the planet Dowoptodowop orbiting the star Dowop. From the perspective of earth, it was located at coordinates X, Y, Z." Let the astronomer calculate the current location of the star and see if the planet still exists.

Why are you holding out on us? Why are you so selfish? Or why don't you use your secret knowledge to invent the new quantum infabtabulator, or discover treasure, or locate the ship lost during World War II? Why?
 
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In my opinion, the Church of Scientology undermines any beliefs in past lives or the value of knowledge itself. Largely because of the points you have made here, but also becasue I have met 3 Rommels, 2 Mansteins, 2 Von Rundsted's, 4 Thomas Jefferson's, 2 Van Gogh's, 3 Mozarts, 5 (count 'em-- 5) Simon Bolivar's, and 3 Beethovens.

About three years ago I was listening to a conversation between 2 Scientologists at the place I worked who were criticizing the Shuttle program. Both were agreeing that all the NASA scientists have to do is to recall the anti-gravity machines of the past. One was even giving a detailed schematic of it. They realy believed what they were saying.

It seems to me that anything spiritual in Scientology is delusional.

I consider myself a spiritual person, but Scientology makes a mockery out of phenomnon and noumena.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the universe works best for understanding if you look at it like a kaliedescope of viewpoint. One drifts in and through realities and viewpoints, of which there are quite a few of course. To know completely what is going on requires full understanding of those viewrpoints. One may or may not bother to see some or all in full.

When you begin stepping out of a very fixed viewpoint things change. What you kmow is not so acclimated to oneself. Nor is what you know as fact important since there are no facts, there is only how something appears.

If you look at this way it is not so important to be someone or conversely, not to be someone. You can be anyone you want by being the viewpoint of that space. As one gets more perspective, reality will determine the importance.

Regardless, you can never lose you. My opinion.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
In my opinion, the Church of Scientology undermines any beliefs in past lives or the value of knowledge itself. Largely because of the points you have made here, but also becasue I have met 3 Rommels, 2 Mansteins, 2 Von Rundsted's, 4 Thomas Jefferson's, 2 Van Gogh's, 3 Mozarts, 5 (count 'em-- 5) Simon Bolivar's, and 3 Beethovens.
This is, of course, rather easily explained once one understands advanced OT theory (tm). Take Rommel for example. One person was Rommel. Two were Rommel's body thetans who only thought they were Rommel. QED.
 
This is, of course, rather easily explained once one understands advanced OT theory (tm). Take Rommel for example. One person was Rommel. Two were Rommel's body thetans who only thought they were Rommel. QED.

I never met a Montgomery, though. But who would claim to be him?

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Fascinating thread, KK!

When Scientology is viewed from outside of its belief systems, it instantly collapses into nothing more or less than primitive rituals & symbolic rites. The "proof" of past lives Hubbard and believers offer up is non-existent, beyond the glowing grins that accompany the anecdotal "success stories" distributed to the faithful. Whether true or not true is another subject, but one would think that in 60 years of scientific research, Hubbard would have at least stumbled upon on at least ONE small glimmer of proof; he did not, instead substituting embarrassing metaphorical and allegorical journals like "MISSION INTO TIME".

The other day I had a discussion with high level auditor and OT who pointed to that book as proof of hubbard's past life recall. I didn't have the heart to ruin his dinner (or the friendship) so I mercifully gave him a "get out of theta jail free" card.

Cloaked in scientific trappings and other culturally desirable adornments, the witch doctors (auditors) and their patients (PCs) perform an intricately well-rehearsed & articulated dramatization that exactly parallels the trance-induced "spiritual journey" of primitives. Euphoria is achieved by only those worthy enough and the rest must cleanse (repair,review, retrain...) and sacrifice (ethics, amends, donations...) in order to make the attempt again.

Only those capable of profound "suspension of disbelief" can ascend to the highest holy peaks. It is no coincidence that the Church's spiritual leader (DM) recognizes Tom Cruise as the #1 holiest of all, for the actor has perfected the self-induced trancelike state using the very same powers to immerse himself into a character that (previously) propelled him to the status of world's #1 commercial actor.

Virtually ANY aspect of Scn's "science" and "tech" deflates, under the most casual inspection, to mere superstition and mythology designed to lessen anxieties of the human condition.

Nobody would care much if Scientologists went thru these silly rituals in private. But they are not content to invite others to join their rapturous ceremonies (auditing); they have mandated that every man, woman and child in the universe must be "handled" and brought aboard the Bridge To Total Freedom (for their own good) whether they want to or not. Hence, the trickery, treachery and subterfuge.

Lying to and attacking humans is a bad choice for an organization.

It creates problems that don't go away.

But something's gotta give, so Scn and Scientologists go away instead.
 
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Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I never met a Montgomery, though. But who would claim to be him?
OMX! (That, of course, stands for, Oh My Xenu!) You couldn't possibly be suggesting that the past life recall of Scientologists is not entirely accurate, but is instead designed, consciously or unconsciously, to make themselves feel better about their current, perhaps less than stellar, lives?
 
OMX! (That, of course, stands for, Oh My Xenu!) You couldn't possibly be suggesting that the past life recall of Scientologists is not entirely accurate, but is instead designed, consciously or unconsciously, to make themselves feel better about their current, perhaps less than stellar, lives?

Exactly. I bet there are a bunch of Abraham Lincolns but not one John Wilkes Boothe. I've never had anyone tell me they were some historical figure that they never heard of themselves. The names I often hear about usually start occuring after some contemporary event like a movie or an historical novel. All of a sudden there are people realizing they were that person.

And I've never heard a Scientologists say they were Oscar Wilde, but you can take you pick of Dickens.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
About three years ago I was listening to a conversation between 2 Scientologists at the place I worked who were criticizing the Shuttle program. Both were agreeing that all the NASA scientists have to do is to recall the anti-gravity machines of the past.
The more important question is why they, the Scientologists, didn't recall the anti-gravity machines of the past?

Or more practically, because these two particular Scientologists may never have lived in an anti-gravity machine using past civilization, why didn't they post something on a Scientology message list, discussion board, etc., soliciting help from those Scientologists who had lived in anti-gravity machine using past civilizations? Surely, some Scientologist had. Or if anti-gravity machines are, and always have been, impossible, why didn't these Scientologists solicit their fellow Scientologists regarding their memories of past life space propulsion technology?

I mean, why place the sole buden on the NASA scientists? What if the NASA scientists' past lives had all been spent as cavemen or something?

Seriously, why isn't the COS mining the past life memories of its adherents for advanced tech? It could be all powerful! It could have the one ring to rule them all! (Um, or something.)
 
The more important question is why they, the Scientologists, didn't recall the anti-gravity machines of the past?

Or more practically, because these two particular Scientologists may never have lived in an anti-gravity machine using past civilization, why didn't they post something on a Scientology message list, discussion board, etc., soliciting help from those Scientologists who had lived in anti-gravity machine using past civilizations? Surely, some Scientologist had. Or if anti-gravity machines are, and always have been, impossible, why didn't these Scientologists solicit their fellow Scientologists regarding their memories of past life space propulsion technology?

I mean, why place the sole buden on the NASA scientists? What if the NASA scientists' past lives had all been spent as cavemen or something?

Seriously, why isn't the COS mining the past life memories of its adherents for advanced tech? It could be all powerful! It could have the one ring to rule them all! (Um, or something.)

The sad thing is they claimed they did know how the machine worked! I realized that these two and all other Scientologists have to keep feeding each other's delusions or the whole bubble will burst.

Scientology can never let any claims be tested or the whole house of cards will fall. The claims to special knowledge and awareness only exists within their our little group.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'll give you two examples to refute your claim, KK.

1. In Dianetic auditing I ran a lifetime in the Andes mountains and got a location at Macchu Piccu. This was just some hundreds of years ago, but before the white man got there - not sure when that was. I recalled a staircase, going down from the site down a narrow valley. About six months later my auditor came across the new Time magazine of the day and there in it was a report on the newly discovered staircase that nobody knew about before. I didn't follow up on precise details and descriptions, I wasn't too interested really, but there it was - confirmation of a recall for which there was apparently no evidence available before.

2. The next one, I think I have posted about it before on this board, was in the town I grew up in in South Africa. The town was established in about 1670 or thereabouts and the diary of the founder - which is extant - describes how he established it - laid it out - on an island in the river that flows there. many references to this statement have been made since because the mystery about it is Where is the island? Where has it gotten to ? Because there is no island, so what was he talking about? Well - and this was not in a session as such, it was just done by me at a time when I was very keyed out and free in my past life recalls - I just went back there and looked. And there was the island, clear as daylight. And looking at the present town I could visualise exactly where it went. I wrote a submission to the Afrikaans Wikipaedia article on the town and my report was still there when I last looked.

Verifiable recalls are posible. Not on demand perhaps but certainly sporadically.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I'll give you two examples to refute your claim, KK.

1. In Dianetic auditing I ran a lifetime in the Andes mountains and got a location at Macchu Piccu. This was just some hundreds of years ago, but before the white man got there - not sure when that was. I recalled a staircase, going down from the site down a narrow valley. About six months later my auditor came across the new Time magazine of the day and there in it was a report on the newly discovered staircase that nobody knew about before. I didn't follow up on precise details and descriptions, I wasn't too interested really, but there it was - confirmation of a recall for which there was apparently no evidence available before.
This is no verification at all. You "recalled" a staircase at Machu Piccu. So what? The very first Google search result for [Machu Picchu staircase] states that there are "several such stairways in the city," which only makes sense given the fact that Machu Piccu is a pre-Columbian Inca site located 2,430 metres (8,000 ft) above sea level. If you look at pictures of Machu Picchu, there are stairways all over the place. "Recalling" the existence of a staircase or stairway at a city 8,000 feet above sea level is no great feat.

How do you do know that the staircase you "recalled" actually exists at Macchu Piccu, much less that it is the "new" one that your auditor conveniently found in Time magazine? You don't because you weren't "too much interested really" and "didn't follow up on precise details and descriptions."

2. The next one, I think I have posted about it before on this board, was in the town I grew up in in South Africa. The town was established in about 1670 or thereabouts and the diary of the founder - which is extant - describes how he established it - laid it out - on an island in the river that flows there. many references to this statement have been made since because the mystery about it is Where is the island? Where has it gotten to ? Because there is no island, so what was he talking about? Well - and this was not in a session as such, it was just done by me at a time when I was very keyed out and free in my past life recalls - I just went back there and looked. And there was the island, clear as daylight. And looking at the present town I could visualise exactly where it went. I wrote a submission to the Afrikaans Wikipaedia article on the town and my report was still there when I last looked.
To tell you the truth, I don't understand this. It was not in session. It was not a past life. You went back in time, looked, saw the island, and could "visualize where it went?" And it was "there???" It moved in the last 400 years? And you have and others have verified this?

And this is what passes in Scientology for scientific study and verification?
 
Interesting Thread ...

You raised a good point KK.

I spent 5 years at Sydney University - studying Elec Eng - before I got body-routed into Sydney Org and a staff contract.

Over the next 24 years I put a great deal of time into the task of extrapolating the "fundamental truths" of the universe contained in Scientology.

I went as far as studying Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth for the same reason.

I also ran a lot of "whole track" while on the FEBC auditing line-up. And most of these past societies were high-tech.

I can categorically state that all such endeavours at "superior enlightenment" led to a great big static. A monumental nothingness.

I have also heard LRH lectures that indicate that he doesn't know the difference between concepts such as fusion and fission.

I tried to be a good boy.

D.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I went as far as studying Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth for the same reason.
Xenu knows, I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't hijack and divert my own thread. But... can't... resist.

I knew other people who did this -- studied Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth as if they were "scripture," as if they were "tech." They were all OTs. Not necessarily OT8s, but now that I think of it at least OT3. OT3s, OT5s and OT7s.

After talking to them about it in general terms, I interpreted it as wanting... needing... more. More tech. More policy. More guidance. More instruction. Almost an addiction.

It seemed like they knew they were reaching the end of the line. They were OT3, OT5, etc. They new the big secrets, or most of them, and... it wasn't working. They needed MORE. MORE RON!

So they turned to the fiction books. Maybe there were clues there. Disguised tech.

I already told the story of the woman who stopped performing oral sex on her husband because Ron made disparaging remarks about the practice in one of the "Earth" books. That is how desperate they were to have someone still guide them, lead them.

Seriously, what was one supposed to do once one achieved OT8? Go out and simply lead one's life? Please, don't be ridiculous. There has to be more Scientology.

Don't you understand, there simply has to be. Please?

Now please go back to your regularly scheduled programming.
 

Tim Skog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Xenu knows, I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't hijack and divert my own thread. But... can't... resist.

I knew other people who did this -- studied Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth as if they were "scripture," as if they were "tech." They were all OTs. Not necessarily OT8s, but now that I think of it at least OT3. OT3s, OT5s and OT7s.

After talking to them about it in general terms, I interpreted it as wanting... needing... more. More tech. More policy. More guidance. More instruction. Almost an addiction.

It seemed like they knew they were reaching the end of the line. They were OT3, OT5, etc. They new the big secrets, or most of them, and... it wasn't working. They needed MORE. MORE RON!

So they turned to the fiction books. Maybe there were clues there. Disguised tech.

I already told the story of the woman who stopped performing oral sex on her husband because Ron made disparaging remarks about the practice in one of the "Earth" books. That is how desperate they were to have someone still guide them, lead them.

Seriously, what was one supposed to do once one achieved OT8? Go out and simply lead one's life? Please, don't be ridiculous. There has to be more Scientology.

Don't you understand, there simply has to be. Please?

Now please go back to your regularly scheduled programming.


Yes, there is always more scientology as long as you are willing to pay for it.

Hubbard created the perfect 'Bridge' that goes nowhere and all along the way there are toll booths so that you can pay for the privilege of going 'there.'
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Your answer to my first one is fair enough. I have never followed up on Machu Piccu nor read up on it. So I accept what you say.

On your second one though:

To tell you the truth, I don't understand this. It was not in session. It was not a past life. You went back in time, looked, saw the island, and could "visualize where it went?" And it was "there???" It moved in the last 400 years? And you have and others have verified this?

And this is what passes in Scientology for scientific study and verification?

The island didn't "go" anywhere. It's right there. But all (or most) appearance of it vanished when the river changed its course somewhat. "Vanished" sufficiently to convince most people that it may never have existed, but once you know where it was you can see the traces of it in present time.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
On your second one though:

The island didn't "go" anywhere. It's right there. But all (or most) appearance of it vanished when the river changed its course somewhat. "Vanished" sufficiently to convince most people that it may never have existed, but once you know where it was you can see the traces of it in present time.
Sorry, simply don't buy it. The narrative about what you learned, how you learned it, how you verified it, and how you couldn't have possibly have known it before (or simply found it in PT) is simply too vague and confused for me to accept that past life recall (which you don't even really describe as past life recall) led to discovery of some new, previously undiscovered fact.

If this is the best Scientology can do to verify recall of past life memories after, what, thousands of PCs and millions of WDAHs, I'm not too worried about it.
 
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