Where is the damn treasure?

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

Some interesting ideas here, but this bit about recalling hi tech data is perhaps a bit naïve. We all know about tins cans, but would you know how to seal food into a tin without poisoning the food with bits of solder or whatever? I wouldn't. This is detailed knowledge developed over the years, in house, and probably is only known to a few tin can machine designers.

Now let's go more hi tech. How about a quad core 4GHz processor. Do you think you could recall how to design one, even if you did in a previous life. The thing is it would be based on everyone else's work. It takes a huge infra structure to do that sort of work. "Give me $30,000,000 and I will design one from recall." Not much of a business plan to a VC.

Ok, now let's go more hi tech. You used to work on a hyper-space drives. You used to design them. That has selected you out of BILLIONS of people, so the probability is pretty damn low. Ok, go ahead and design one to prove the point. Oh you say, you need a quantum discriminator, readily available from Maplin's on Xenu's world. Trouble is you know what it is in general, but not in enough detail to make one. Scuppered.

High school physics is a good one though. The only trouble is a can't remember much of what I studied at college. By the time you died, you might have been the same way too. And now of course you have to translate from a foreign language, in foreign units, with foreign symbols. That is pretty bloody good recall.

I am not going to make anyone wrong for not having that degree of detail in their recalls.

 

[FrankBooth]

At this point, countless Scientologists have recovered memories of past lives. Nobody has ever recalled anything that is verifiable? Nothing is verifiable? Really? Such a poor showing. Personally, I'm disappointed about how selfish everyone is being.

I believe that is because everything "recalled" is just fantasy and imaginary bullshit.

E: No, I didn't read the entire thread, so I hope that someone laid that one out prior to my response and I'm just an asshole, but if not, there it is, and I hope that reinforces the whole point of the OP in the first place

 

[Kha Khan]

High school physics is a good one though. The only trouble is a can't remember much of what I studied at college. By the time you died, you might have been the same way too. And now of course you have to translate from a foreign language, in foreign units, with foreign symbols. That is pretty bloody good recall.

If there is a universal language, it is math. If you remember F=MA, you can derive Newtonian physics if you were ever taught Newtonian physics.

And if the society is not sufficiently advanced to even begin to understand Newtonian physics, you could use and teach the Pythagorean theorem. Or multiplication. Or how to make fire.

For years Scientologists have recalled past life memories from their lives in advanced cultures, but have never recalled anything that is useful? Nothing that in the past advanced society is the equivalent of easily recalled simple high school Newtonian physics (F=MA), or if need be, multiplication, or making fire, that for us would be not only a real breakthrough, but an achievable one?

 

[NeXTep]

Sorry, simply don't buy it. The narrative about what you learned, how you learned it, how you verified it, and how you couldn't have possibly have known it before (or simply found it in PT) is simply too vague and confused for me to accept that past life recall (which you don't even really describe as past life recall) led to discovery of some new, previously undiscovered fact.

If this is the best Scientology can do to verify recall of past life memories after, what, thousands of PCs and millions of WDAHs, I'm not too worried about it.

You just answered your own OP Kha Khan.

Nobody would believe you, there is no proof good enough for everyone to accept it.

On top of that you don't need to be an extreme believer in conspiracy theories to know that anyone who brought in ideas that don't fit the current scientific paradigm have been either ridiculed or brought to silence by other means.

Knowledge comes with responsibility.

When humanity has reached a level of understanding that they can deal with the information they will get it.

You can't force feed knowledge to anyone.

 

[Pepin]

I believe that is because everything "recalled" is just fantasy and imaginary bullshit.

I guess that means your entire childhood was also fantasy along with yesterdays breakfast.

 

[Kha Khan]

You just answered your own OP Kha Khan.

Nobody would believe you, there is no proof good enough for everyone to accept it.

No, I didn't answermy own OP. Not at all. If Leon had produced something beyond a vague, confused and unverified narrative, I would have considered it. The fact that I rejected purported "proof" that was no proof at all does not mean I would reject any and all evidence.

And the proof is in the finding, or the use. The idea that "no one would believe you" if you produced evidence is not only stupid, but insultingly so.

If I recall where buried treasure is buried, and find it, I've been proved correct.

If I recall where a ship was lost, tell people where it is, and they find it, I've been proved correct.

If I recall where some artifact was lost, or body is buried, and it is found, I've been proved correct.

If I recall something about Napolean's attack on Russia that was previously not known, and share it with a scholar, and he says, "You know what? That makes sense. Let me check the archive in St. Petersberg about that family history you mentioned," I might not be "proved" correct, but he and others will take me seriously.

If I recall where some previously undiscovered star is located, and I help people find it, and it is found, I've been proved correct.

If I recall some ancient tech, some knowledge, that to me is (or was) the equivalent of simple high school physics, but for my "current" society is just beyond the current edge of quantum physics, and I use it or teach it, I've been proved correct.

On top of that you don't need to be an extreme believer in conspiracy theories to know that anyone who brought in ideas that don't fit the current scientific paradigm have been either ridiculed or brought to silence by other means.

Yeah, actually you do have be an extreme believer in conspiracy theories to believe such a thing. Or an Independent Scientologist or Freezoner. Except that is redundant.

Anything new is that does not fit the current scientific paradigm is ridiculed. Until it is proved correct or useful. Then people want to use it and exploit it and patent it. Yeah, initially Einstein was probably not real popular when he proved a lot of people wrong. But quickly, very quickly, he proved very popular indeed.

Knowledge comes with responsibility.

When humanity has reached a level of understanding that they can deal with the information they will get it.

You can't force feed knowledge to anyone.

Dear Xenu, what trite nonsense. What a pathetic and transparent excuse.

Oh, so Scientologists who recall advanced knowledge and technology don't disclose it, and don't use it even for their own benefit, because "Knowledge comes with responsibility?" Because humanity is "not ready for it?" What crap.

Just so I understand, a Scientologist who recalls some biology that would help cure AIDS would not tell anyone, and wouldn't share the knowledge, because "Knowledge comes with responsibility," and humanity is "not ready for it?" Thanks so much. Good to know that Scientologists are such humanitarians.

And who said anything about "force feeding knowledge" to anyone? How about simply using it? Or teaching it to those who are interested or willing to learn?

Which leads me to other questions. Like, are Independent Scientologists and Freezoners capable of producing anything but excuses and conspiracy theories?

Like, is the mantra of IndependentScientology and the Freezone, "It works... as long as you aren't rude enough to insist that it be tested in any sort rational, objective, or scientific way, in which case we'll just make excuses and indulge in unsupported conspiracy theories?"

I sear in name of Xenu, do you "Independent" Scientologists and Freezoners ever stop making excuses? Is there nothing that can piece the delusional bubble you are in?

Ever hear of the concept of falsifiability? If not, please click the link. Please. I beg you. When Independent Scientologists and Freezoners have the guts, and indeed the simple integrity, to posit even one falsifiable hypothesis and subject it to independent, then I will start thinking more highly of Independent Scientology and the Freezone.

Until then, could you please stop making every possible excuse, every possible desperate attempt to insulate your superior "tech" from any sort of rational analysis and scrutiny? Thanks. Appreciate it.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I want to say something here but this can be easily misinterpreted. So please read carefully.

I have had three incidents in my personal life that would probably be sufficient proof for most people of my knowledge of past lives, but I am only going to state one of them here.

It seems to me that what is considered proof by believers is a different standard than what historians or anthropologists or scientist would call proof.

And that is because the Scientologists already exist in a paradigm where they believe and are only looking for confirmation, not proof.

Here is my true-life example:
I once was in a foreign country where I had never been before but I felt confident from my auditing that I had been there in a past life.

When I was in a car in the country-side with a few of the locals, they got lost. I told them which road to take, but they never believed me. Eventually they tried my way and it turned out I was right.

Now, if I already have the paradigm that past-lives are a certainty, then this is enough proof.

But I also happen to have a great sense of direction. People have comment and complimented me on my great sense of direction. I don’t understand why one person has a better sense of direction that another, but that it happens is a fact.

If my having a great sense of direction was my paradigm, then this same incident is proof that I have a great sense of direction.

What makes it proof to me that I have a great sense of direction or proof to me of past lives depends entirely on the assumptions that I have already made and the discourse that I have already established.

For example, that I am a thetan. If I am a thetan, then of course my experience can be explained in terms of past lives.

I guess this might be called the logical fallacy of affirming the precedent or consequent, or something similar.

But to an historian or an anthropologist, or a scientist it is proof of nothing.

If you already believe in past lives, then you see confirmation of it, but not proof.
If you already believe that you have a great sense of direction, then you see confirmation of it, but not proof.

But it seems there is something unsettling about a person trying to prove his spiritual beliefs.

If one feels the need to prove it, then it seems one has doubts.

I have spiritual beliefs, but I know they are not scientific or could in anyway be proven scientifically.

I don’t need proof that I love my cat, nor do I feel the need to prove it to anyone else. Nor could it be proven scientificaly.

People may interpret my actions with regard to the cat based on their paradigms whether I love my cat or not, but my love can never be scientifically proven or disproven.

The Anabaptist Jacques

ps. To clarify things. If I acted in such a way that harmed my cat, such as never feeding her, but all the time believing that I loved my cat, that would be destructive behavior because I was letting my beliefs trump rational action. I may still believe I love my cat, I may even love my cat, but my real or imagined love of my cat does not enhance my cats chances of survival.

Scientologists are free to bellieve in past lives, anyone is. But when that beliefs trumps rational action, then they become destructive.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[lkwdblds]

A couple of possible exceptions?

First, what at first might appear to be a digression. Follow.

How do we apply the scientific method to events that took place in the past? By testing our theories against newly discovered evidence concerning events that took place in the past. Paleontologist John Smith says the dinosaur known as Meatosauraus ate only meat. No veggies. Only meat. A carnivore, not an omnivore. Then a wonderful new cache of the most complete Meatosauraus fossils ever discovered is found. And the back teeth, discovered for the first time, are molars that are useful only for chewing veggies. And the bones are discovered with a bunch of half-eaten corn that, like the Meatosauraus, was swallowed up in the rapid flow of volcano lava. And John Smith says, "Oh crap."

Take history. Somebody heard the family story that Benedict Arnold betrayed the U.S. because George Washington slept with his wife. Everybody calls bullshit. Then somebody discovers hot, steamy love letters from George to Benedict's wife. The letters are authenticated. Is the theory proven? No. But people stop calling bullshit, and start paying attention.

Which leads us to the opening question: Where is the damn treasure? The artifacts? The new insights or leads regarding history? The new tech?

At this point, countless Scientologists have recovered memories of past lives. Nobody has ever recalled anything that is verifiable? Nothing is verifiable? Really? Such a poor showing. Personally, I'm disappointed about how selfish everyone is being.

Nobody has ever recalled the location of buried or lost treasure? A ship lost at sea?

Nobody has ever been able to direct historians to the location of lost artifacts?

?

I know of two possible exceptions. One is LRH's "Mission into Time" as related in his book of the same name where he sailed the Mediterranean with a small crew of dedicated early Sea Org members. The book doesn't report overwhelming success but they don't admit to total failure either. They report some "finds" occured but certainly not enough to really convince one, especially one who knows LRH's tendency to exagerate his achievments.

The other exception is a little stronger and was written by Class XII Pierre Ethier and posted on his website upperbridge.com. I read the article several times. He gives a very logical explanation of why most people can not verify past lives with hard evidence. He concludes that burial sites for the common men and women would not exist because there would be no lasting monument to their having lived. He says that only the very rich or very famous would be honored with a lasting monument. The very rich or very famous are a very small percentage of the overall population and when someone comes forward claiming to be a reincarnation of someone very famous, such as Washington of Lincoln, he is usually made fun of as a nut because there are so many claims made of this sort. WHAT WE NEED THEN IS A VERY RICH PERSON WHO WAS NOT FAMOUS. Etheir comes up with one for himself, recalling a recent life, where he was a millionaire in Athens, Greece. He claims to recall his name and that he had plans for a large memorial for himself during that lifetime. He claims to have gone to Athens to check it out and immediately, upon gaining access into the cemetary, he saw his monument and went over to it. The name, the dates and everything about it were just what he expected to find. He does not reveal his former name or any details which might back up his story but anyone who has read Ethier knows that he does not exagerate facts the way Hubbard did but rather uses an extremely accurate time, place, form and event method of documenting events. While certainly not conclusive proof, it does make one take a second look. Unfortunately, Ethier's site seems to have been taken down recently.
lkwdblds

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

It there was one single shred of evidence for every million excuses given for why Scientology has not worked as promised or why there is no evidence of it working ... we might have run across a shred of evidence by now, for the cult to build a huge marketing campaign around. However unfortunately for anyone still buying into Hubbard's con game, the evidence does not exist and never will. This is not to say past lives or other spiritual phenomenon do not exist. It is to say that Scientology has nothing to do with it. Scientology is nothing but a con game built to take advantage of people's need for a connection with something greater than the human condition.

 

[NeXTep]

No, I didn't answermy own OP. Not at all. If Leon had produced something beyond a vague, confused and unverified narrative, I would have considered it. The fact that I rejected purported "proof" that was no proof at all does not mean I would reject any and all evidence.

And the proof is in the finding, or the use. The idea that "no one would believe you" if you produced evidence is not only stupid, but insultingly so.

If I recall where buried treasure is buried, and find it, I've been proved correct.

If I recall where a ship was lost, tell people where it is, and they find it, I've been proved correct.

If I recall where some artifact was lost, or body is buried, and it is found, I've been proved correct.

If I recall something about Napolean's attack on Russia that was previously not known, and share it with a scholar, and he says, "You know what? That makes sense. Let me check the archive in St. Petersberg about that family history you mentioned," I might not be "proved" correct, but he and others will take me seriously.

If I recall where some previously undiscovered star is located, and I help people find it, and it is found, I've been proved correct.

If I recall some ancient tech, some knowledge, that to me is (or was) the equivalent of simple high school physics, but for my "current" society is just beyond the current edge of quantum physics, and I use it or teach it, I've been proved correct.

Yeah, actually you do have be an extreme believer in conspiracy theories to believe such a thing. Or an Independent Scientologist or Freezoner. Except that is redundant.

Anything new is that does not fit the current scientific paradigm is ridiculed. Until it is proved correct or useful. Then people want to use it and exploit it and patent it. Yeah, initially Einstein was probably not real popular when he proved a lot of people wrong. But quickly, very quickly, he proved very popular indeed.

Dear Xenu, what trite nonsense. What a pathetic and transparent excuse.

Oh, so Scientologists who recall advanced knowledge and technology don't disclose it, and don't use it even for their own benefit, because "Knowledge comes with responsibility?" Because humanity is "not ready for it?" What crap.

Just so I understand, a Scientologist who recalls some biology that would help cure AIDS would not tell anyone, and wouldn't share the knowledge, because "Knowledge comes with responsibility," and humanity is "not ready for it?" Thanks so much. Good to know that Scientologists are such humanitarians.

And who said anything about "force feeding knowledge" to anyone? How about simply using it? Or teaching it to those who are interested or willing to learn?

Which leads me to other questions. Like, are Independent Scientologists and Freezoners capable of producing anything but excuses and conspiracy theories?

Like, is the mantra of IndependentScientology and the Freezone, "It works... as long as you aren't rude enough to insist that it be tested in any sort rational, objective, or scientific way, in which case we'll just make excuses and indulge in unsupported conspiracy theories?"

I sear in name of Xenu, do you "Independent" Scientologists and Freezoners ever stop making excuses? Is there nothing that can piece the delusional bubble you are in?

Ever hear of the concept of falsifiability? If not, please click the link. Please. I beg you. When Independent Scientologists and Freezoners have the guts, and indeed the simple integrity, to posit even one falsifiable hypothesis and subject it to independent, then I will start thinking more highly of Independent Scientology and the Freezone.

Until then, could you please stop making every possible excuse, every possible desperate attempt to insulate your superior "tech" from any sort of rational analysis and scrutiny? Thanks. Appreciate it.

Well actually I am neither of those you accuse me to be.

But if it makes you happy to put me in that drawer, so be it.

Have a nice day and dream on.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Why are you holding out on us? Why are you so selfish? Or why don't you use your secret knowledge to invent the new quantum infabtabulator, or discover treasure, or locate the ship lost during World War II? Why?

Humans are not yet ready for such knowledge.

Klaatu barada nikto






MarkAB aker

 

[TheBellMare]

To Verify Past Life Geologically

2. The next one, I think I have posted about it before on this board, was in the town I grew up in in South Africa. The town was established in about 1670 or thereabouts and the diary of the founder - which is extant - describes how he established it - laid it out - on an island in the river that flows there. many references to this statement have been made since because the mystery about it is Where is the island? Where has it gotten to ? Because there is no island, so what was he talking about? Well - and this was not in a session as such, it was just done by me at a time when I was very keyed out and free in my past life recalls - I just went back there and looked. And there was the island, clear as daylight. And looking at the present town I could visualise exactly where it went. I wrote a submission to the Afrikaans Wikipaedia article on the town and my report was still there when I last looked.

Leon, in order to document your island in the middle of the stream in 1670, a geology student from some local South African university would use photogeology and examination of the stream sediments with core plugs to determine the age of river sediments, in what order they were laid down and thereby come close to determining whether the supposed “island” existed in 1670. This is a fairly common type of study for recent (Pleistocene) sediments in geologic literature and valid interpretations result. Stream channels change thru time. Depends on how serious you are about proving that pastlife; contact some South African University Geology department with a Geomorphology professor and get one of his graduate students to do the work. The guy will get a Senior thesis and a publication out of the work, good for his career progress, and you will get your proof.

 

[Kha Khan]

Humans are not yet ready for such knowledge.

Klaatu barada nikto






MarkAB aker

Now I understand the paradigm. Scientologists, Independent Scientologists and Freezoners could easily provide me with the evidence I seek. But then they would have to kill me.

 

[Zinjifar]

Now I understand the paradigm. Scientologists, Independent Scientologists and Freezoners could easily provide me with the evidence I seek. But then they would have to kill me.

Much easier and more satisfying than knocking your hat off at 50 paces.

Zinj

 

[Mystic]

Exactly. I bet there are a bunch of Abraham Lincolns but not one John Wilkes Boothe. I've never had anyone tell me they were some historical figure that they never heard of themselves. The names I often hear about usually start occuring after some contemporary event like a movie or an historical novel. All of a sudden there are people realizing they were that person.

And I've never heard a Scientologists say they were Oscar Wilde, but you can take you pick of Dickens.

The Anabaptist Jacques

If it helps any, TAJ, I knew an ex-John Wilkes Booth, and a couple of George Pattons. But one of the best was a chickie Oat Tea I was auditing who had been Xenu's daughter! ... and it was "real" to her and "real" to me at the time.

So without any evidence at all, just these meager experiences, we can make a super-valid scientific kornklushun: These folks are hallucinatory.

 

[TheBellMare]

Past Lives, Angels, and Spiritual Law

This has always been one of my questions too. If we are indeed Spirits/Thetans traveling from life to life, then we should be able to document past lives. I think it should be researched. Carefully.

If not, then is it all just "Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk."? “What’s it all about Alfie, is it just for the moment we live?” Is that all that is going on?

This thread brings me back to my original question, the WHY I was interested in spiritual growth/Scientology in the first place. Am I A Spirit? Is there a Purpose? How Should We Then Live? Is there not something outside myself – like God? Or, if the Kingdom of Heaven is within me as Jesus Christ said, then how can I tap into some of that Heaven? Like now?

My conclusion after this venture into Scientology is OK, wrong track, OOPS, back up the train, OK, dust myself off, hmm, pick myself back up, and Aw shit! Several years and many $$ lost. Damn! What now? Where were we --- OK! Feels good to be free again! Where to now?

Got it. LRH was a con man and has created the greatest scam ever (about on par with the Catholic Church). The CO$ needs to implode, bigtime implode, before more minds are twisted, before more 20 year old kids trapped in billion-year-loss-of-human-rights contracts, before more Lisa Mcphersons die. Got it.

But there seem to be some real "spiritual" phenomena here. As I turn it over and look at it, and read this message board, Scientologists report the same spiritual stuff that can be found elsewhere. Anecdotal evidence that we have out-of-body experiences -- same as reported by people in surgery and by accident victims. Anecdotal evidence of past life experiences --outside of Scientology, Hmmm. (MORE PROOF needed on that one!) Anecdotal -- and statistical!! -- evidence that some people are more able than others, simply because of their belief system! Anecdotal evidence of the OT phenomenon of being able to find your lost keys. (A few months ago I was looking for a particular book lost in our warehousefull of stored junk/books/etc -- and I went immediately to the right area, the right box, and found the right book. An OT phenomenon? But I am not an OT! ) So I conclude that a belief system can affect my survival. A “spiritual” thing can affect my survival. Maybe I AM a thetan/spirit walking from life to life.

A while back I was thinking: Ifthere are a set of physical laws which govern the physical universe -- (and there do seem to be, even if we do not know them all yet) Then could there possibly be a parallel set of spiritual laws which govern the spiritual universe (and there do seem to be spiritual laws, even if we do not know them all yet). Make sense? Spiritual laws like Karma. We Become What We Think About. As Ye Sow So Shall Ye Reap. This Above All To Thine Own Self Be True. Honesty Is The Best Policy. Love Your Neighbor As You Love Yourself. Repeat In The Next Life What You Don’t Get Right in This One. Stuff like that.

Physical law stuff is at work in daily life. We follow the physical laws to survive (don’t step off cliffs, drink enough water, keep warm, etc). So should spiritual law stuff be at work in daily life (Karma, Love, Honesty, etc). (I am sure this is NOT an original thought.) I should be able to use both physical and spiritual laws to increase my survival, that of my family and that of mankind. That makes sense to me.

(Which is why LRH was so fascinating – he said “Come into this tent, young man, I have here the spiritual answers to ALL. . .Step Right In. . .” !@#$%^& Snake Oil Salesman. . He didn’t have Shit. . . Goddamn paradigm he was selling had a bunch of good stuff in it, but didn’t hang together under close examination and was twisted beyond all recognition to control, harm and destroy. . . . but the first trick in the tent sure worked to bring ‘em in, and he sure had a few other tricks-- and a smooth delivery!!. . .for a while. . . . .)

So in order to survive better than just use of physical laws, what are these pesky spiritual laws --and how to use them? If this spiritual realm exists, toward what purpose? If I, a thetan, indeed walk from life to life, toward what purpose? To Survive? (. . .So, without asking WHY survive at all. . .) --What then would increase my survival – could these spiritual phenomena help? To make better decisions, understand more, enjoy more, SURVIVE? How to use spiritual phenomena? Some examples follow. . .

You can choose to believe the following or not. In January 1991 I needed to make a decision whether to adopt twin baby boys. I was a Christian at the time. Seeking spiritual guidance, I went to the Bible, opened it at random. It opened to the last page of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 12. Page 1002, New International Version Study Bible, 1985 edition. "Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come. . . .remember him, before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. . .”

Holy shit. This seems like a death message. What? Hello God? Are You there??? I decided to adopt the boys. I felt completely joyous. It was an international adoption and the process took several months. Over and over, many times during those months, when I went to the Bible, it opened to that page. Page 1002, New International Version Study Bible, 1985 edition. (No, there was no bookmark, no jelly, nothing stuck in the pages.) In May 1991 one of the twin baby boys died. It is a very long story. We were conned. My husband and I adopted the remaining boy. From that day on, whenever I went to my Bible with a question, it never randomly opened to that page again. You can believe me or not.

"Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk." If there is no road, and I make the road as I walk – then somehow did I know the baby would die? Why did I get that message, that Bible page? If we become what we think about – if my life is what I create -- I would have liked for that child to have lived. I met that child, I loved that child, I held that baby boy. Why did I “have to get that experience?” Is there indeed such a thing as “pulling it in??” (Note to Auditors; Yes, I have audited this incident to FN. My beautiful smart healthy 18 year old surviving son is a joy to me now.)

So -- was there a purpose to that spiritual message? That would have helped me and my child survive? As we thetans/spirits walk through our various lives?

Another example. Again, you can choose to believe it or not. (To doubters – yeah, I know, I know, your cousin went to the Bible one day and it opened up to something really dumb about so-and-so begat so-and-so, or sheep and goats, or the wrath of a vengeful God etc, --yeah, me too most of the time. Maybe all of this was just an odd coincidence. Maybe so.)

When I hit the wall several months ago in Scientology – (and I was only a public (such a derogatory term) not Sea Org), I went through a period of anger and confusion, and while still in that confusion, seeking guidance, I went to the Bible and opened it at random. It opened to the Book of Habbakuk, an obscure prophet, who wrote about 600 years before Christ. (Page 1388, New International Version Study Bible 1985 edition). (Once again, no bookmark, no jelly stuck on the page, etc.) Habbakuk brings complaints to God; Chapter 1 Verse 13 “. . . .Why then do You tolerate the treacherous? Why are You silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous then themselves? You have made men like fish in the sea, like sea creatures that have no ruler. The wicked foe pulls all of them up with hooks, he catches them in his net. . . he lives in luxury and enjoys the choicest food. Is he to keep on emptying his net, destroying nations without mercy?. . . .” And God answers Habbakuk, in Chapter 2 Verse 4, “Then the Lord replied . . .the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. . . See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright. . .he is arrogant and never at rest. He is greedy as the grave. . .Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying, ‘Woe to him who piles up stolen goods, and makes himself wealthy by extortion! How long must this go on? Will not your debtors suddenly arise? Will they not wake up and make you tremble? . . . Because you have plundered many nations, the peoples who are left will plunder you. . . .Woe to him who builds his realm by unjust gain.. . .”

WOW! In this ESMB, in Headley vs CO$, in Jason Beghe’s video, in the recent SP times videos and new articles, I observe the victims suddenly arising, waking up, and making CO$ tremble. . . Thanks for the message, Habbakuk! And this “message” came from a guy who lived 2600 years ago! Ol’ Habbakuk obviously ran into the same problems back then. Arrogant rapacious conmen been around for a long time, seems like. So, Habbakuk –is that you. . .? You tryin’ to tell me something today, 2600 years later . . . are you a thetan/spirit hangin’ out lookin’ over my shoulder here, just chillin’, just waiting for your next body, next life?

Or was it all "Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk." Wait a minute, wait a minute – Either
1) it is all just coincidence, the Bible pages, I watch too many TV programs with angels and that kind of shit, and I am imagining some “message”;
2) somehow I subconsciously knew ahead of time that my child would die? Somehow I subconsciously knew ahead of time that CO$ was a con – and the Bible simply opened to those pages for me?
3) Is there some thetan/spirit out there that is touching me on the shoulder, putting things in front of me, whispering softly, “Hey, this way, over here, look over here. . .” The still small voice. The thing you KNOW in your heart is true. The sixth sense, the thing that crosses your mind and causes you to take your foot off the gas pedal and sure enough in a few minutes you come upon a wreck/cop/traffic jam. . . .

So if there is a purpose to these things ---Hey wait a minute! How come I couldn’t have gone to the Bible first and “got” the Ecclesiastes message, and could have changed events so my baby wouldn’t have died? That is certainly what I intended. How come I couldn’t have gone to the Bible and “got” that Habbakuk message a few years ago and skipped the Scientology pain and suffering and $$$ scam? That is certainly what I intended. If my life is what I create, what I mock up, why did I “have to get that experience” of the dead child? Of the Scientology scam? Was there a purpose to all this madness? Wouldn’t it have saved me a lot of pain, a few bucks and a few years if I had known before I ever took the plunge and joined CO$ and IAS?

That was my original question! That is why I went into Christianity, Science, Scientology!! Is there some greater wisdom outside myself, the keeper of the spiritual laws perhaps--? That we can learn from BEFORE we fall for the GodDamn CONS!!! So my infant son would be alive! So that I would still have the money to build my house instead of the goddamn IAS conning me out of it with their we’re-gonna-save-the-world bullshit! So that all our children can better survive and we can be like all other species that have gone before us, getting successfully from day to day!

Or is it just another pit in the trail that we --as ants --stumble into? Chaos, anyone?

So – aside from LRH’s brief hoax (really quite an interesting story line actually)– and the Christian Churches made up story lines – and Mohammed’s made up story line --are you sure there is not something outside ourselves? Are these thetan/spirits indeed just wandering from life to life? Maybe some purpose to it all? Is the road is already there and we are just sort of beginning to figure out we are even on a road?

I sort of think there is a road here, and it is NOT "Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk." The road seems already here, and it is way bigger than me. This tree I stand next too is bigger than me. The mountains sure seem bigger than me. This planet sure seems bigger than me. The stars I look up to at night sure seem bigger than me. The Milky Way, sprawling ghostlike across the sky, sure seems bigger than me. The pictures we take with our new little Hubble snappycamera sure made a few snapshots of something way bigger than us. That matter is just waves of energy, and that the whole universe is made of it - whoooh-- that is way bigger than my understanding.

We keep figuring out new stuff every day, as a species – like, you know, that the earth is round and not flat, like how to make gunpowder and kill each other more effectively, like how to use radio waves, that continents drift over the planet, like how to make atomic bombs and kill each other even more effectively, like how harness the wind to make electricity, stuff like that – maybe we are just exploring the road? Maybe we are on the way to figuring out if there is a purpose bigger than us?

We all seem to agree that there is a physical realm (matter energy space & time). Now, if we MADE THAT ALL up (what is the end phenomena of OTVIII – that we mocked it all up?), then we must have MADE UP ALL PHYSICAL LAWS to make that physical stuff work. And it appears to be quite a nice and admirable construction; our paradigm of the physical universe seems to hang together fairly well -- at this juncture at least.

BUT –what if we didn’t make all the physical realm up – then it would behoove us to figure out what the physical laws are, from the guy who DID make it up -- what he (or she, or it?) had in mind. So we could at least stay on the road before we fall off and completely blow ourselves up.

So if I go back to my two instances mentioned above with the Bible pages – and all the other evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, suggesting that there truly is a spiritual realm – and IF WE MADE IT UP –. . Then WE WOULD HAVE MADE UP THE SPIRITUAL LAWS too. Without our infant stumbling species even being conscious of what they are – yet.

BUT ---What if we didn’t make up all the spiritual realm? – then it would behoove us to figure out what the spiritual laws are from the guy who DID make it up -- what he (she, it?) had in mind. So we could at least stay on the road before we fall off it and completely blow ourselves up.

I kind of like the road. It has been fun here on earth from time to time. I don’t want to blow myself up, and I don’t want others to blow themselves up. I would like to come back at some time in the future. I would like for “past lives” to be true.

So what are those spiritual laws? Obviously LRH and Co. were selling some faulty “spiritual laws” or that schtick would actually work. How should we then live in order to follow the spiritual laws and best survive? (And best avoid the next non-survival CON???) So what are the spiritual laws? Karma? We Become What We Think About? As Ye Sow So Shall Ye Reap? This Above All To Thine Own Self Be True? Honesty Is The Best Policy? Any others?

If I make the road I walk ("Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk.") then this is a goddamn jungle I am hacking through. If the road is already there, and I am just an ant trying to figure out where that massive road is -- then this is STILL a goddamn jungle I am hacking through. That noise you hear is me sharpening my machete. I believe I will keep my Bible handy – it is at least thick enough to stop a bullet. Habbakuk or Solomon might have a few more wise words I might catch so I can avoid the next pit in the road. And I will keep the machete razor sharp. What now? Where were we --- OK! Feels good to be free again! Where to now?

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Now I understand the paradigm. Scientologists, Independent Scientologists and Freezoners could easily provide me with the evidence I seek. But then they would have to kill me.

No, they would just have to give you a full frontal lobotomy in order to get you to believe it.

 

[Zinjifar]

This has always been one of my questions too. If we are indeed Spirits/Thetans traveling from life to life, then we should be able to document past lives. I think it should be researched. Carefully.

One problem there is, that, even with *accurate* memory of 'past lives', there would be *no* evidence that it was *your* past life.

Zinj

 

[Kha Khan]

One problem there is, that, even with *accurate* memory of 'past lives', there would be *no* evidence that it was *your* past life.

Yes, I guess it could be the case that you were a Body Thetan who was merely along for the ride.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

"Traveling man, there is no road; you make the road as you walk." If there is no road, and I make the road as I walk – then somehow did I know the baby would die? Why did I get that message, that Bible page? If we become what we think about – if my life is what I create -- I would have liked for that child to have lived. I met that child, I loved that child, I held that baby boy. Why did I “have to get that experience?” Is there indeed such a thing as “pulling it in??” (Note to Auditors; Yes, I have audited this incident to FN. My beautiful smart healthy 18 year old surviving son is a joy to me now.)

None of us know why you or any other need experience such a great loss. One thought you might consider is whether what was needed was for you to be there with your child during his time of crisis. The experience was a loss for you, but it was also a gift of love on your part.


Mark A. Baker