Why are SO members so stupid? they can just leave!
- Thread starter Flag-2005
- Start date
Chipallina
Patron with Honors
nice one Paradox 
Boldgirl
Patron Meritorious
mind control
Because the people in have been indoctrinated into the "Lifton's Eight Criteria" that describes destructive mind control.
When I read these , it describes the scn completely and in this scenario it seems to take an outside influence to change their viewpoint.This pretty much says it all to me !
Lifton's Thought Reform Model
Adapted from Robert Jay Lifton's Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
(Norton, 1961: reprinted 1989 by the University of North Carolina Press)
Dr. Lifton's work was the outgrowth of his studies for military intelligence of Mao Tse-Tung's "thought-reform programs" commonly known as "brainwashing." In Chapter 22, Lifton outlines eight criteria for when any environment can be understood as exercising "thought-reform" or mind control. Lifton wrote that any group has some aspects of these points. However, if an environment has all eight of these points and implements them in the extreme, then there is unhealthy thought reform taking place.
1. Milieu Control
Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.
2. Mystical Manipulation
Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People misattribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.
3. Loading the Language
Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white-"thought-terminating clichés." Non-members cannot simply understand what believers are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.
4. Doctrine Over Person
No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.
5. The Sacred Science
The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.
6. The Cult of Confession
The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.
7. The Demand for Purity
The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. Creating an environment of guilt and shame. No matter how hard a person tries, he always falls short, feels badly, and works even harder.
8. The Dispensing of Existence
The belief that people in the group have the right to exist and all ex-members and critics or dissidents do not.There is no other legitimate alternative to the group. In political regimes, this permits state executions.
Because the people in have been indoctrinated into the "Lifton's Eight Criteria" that describes destructive mind control.
When I read these , it describes the scn completely and in this scenario it seems to take an outside influence to change their viewpoint.This pretty much says it all to me !
Lifton's Thought Reform Model
Adapted from Robert Jay Lifton's Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
(Norton, 1961: reprinted 1989 by the University of North Carolina Press)
Dr. Lifton's work was the outgrowth of his studies for military intelligence of Mao Tse-Tung's "thought-reform programs" commonly known as "brainwashing." In Chapter 22, Lifton outlines eight criteria for when any environment can be understood as exercising "thought-reform" or mind control. Lifton wrote that any group has some aspects of these points. However, if an environment has all eight of these points and implements them in the extreme, then there is unhealthy thought reform taking place.
1. Milieu Control
Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.
2. Mystical Manipulation
Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People misattribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.
3. Loading the Language
Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white-"thought-terminating clichés." Non-members cannot simply understand what believers are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.
4. Doctrine Over Person
No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.
5. The Sacred Science
The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.
6. The Cult of Confession
The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.
7. The Demand for Purity
The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. Creating an environment of guilt and shame. No matter how hard a person tries, he always falls short, feels badly, and works even harder.
8. The Dispensing of Existence
The belief that people in the group have the right to exist and all ex-members and critics or dissidents do not.There is no other legitimate alternative to the group. In political regimes, this permits state executions.
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sallydannce
Gold Meritorious Patron
Good stuff BoldGirl. Thanks for posting.
Boldgirl
Patron Meritorious
Good stuff BoldGirl. Thanks for posting.
thanks
I know too, that I have posted that lifton eight criteria in other threads but it just seemed to belong here too.....so sorry to all for the repeat post....
ScudMuffin
Silver Meritorious Patron
Scientology is the Panopticon of our time.
Lucretia
Patron with Honors
Lifton was smart!!!
To me the eight points are exactly right and verbalise what I have been trying to extract from poor mushy head for a while, not that I would ever have codified it with such clariy.
Is there something about the human condition which makes it probable that any, or even all, groups will evolve those control measures, even if those controls are not there in the first place. Scn is very prone, but so too are religions - in christianity's worst incarnation, the inquisitions (but even now the pope prevents the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden countries because god might see it as birth control - I can't begin to describe how disgusting I think that is, in fact I would have thought it was disgusting while I was in Scio - interesting how I could see insane control in other groups but not in my own) but there are obviously others which are equally bad, then there are masonic lodges, trekies, footie teams etc etc...., any group really which polaries people into us and them. Then, the more essential the group is percieved to be, the more intensely the controls are applied.
One of the things which enchanted me about scn initially was the - oh I don't know yoda-ness(?) of the old timers - wise, serene, ability to grant huge amounts of beingness to a wog such as me - it was a total freedom to walk into the org. But they were brief halcyon days and they haven't lasted and maybe they could never last because humans just can't accept people who aren't part of their own way of thinking. There is a need to demonise others while making sure the faithfull don't get out of line. So you get the secret language, the guilt trips, the ends justifiying the means, the dangerous outsiders etc.
This is a muddle, - I have never been much good at explaining myself. Does anyone have any thoughts?
To me the eight points are exactly right and verbalise what I have been trying to extract from poor mushy head for a while, not that I would ever have codified it with such clariy.
Is there something about the human condition which makes it probable that any, or even all, groups will evolve those control measures, even if those controls are not there in the first place. Scn is very prone, but so too are religions - in christianity's worst incarnation, the inquisitions (but even now the pope prevents the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden countries because god might see it as birth control - I can't begin to describe how disgusting I think that is, in fact I would have thought it was disgusting while I was in Scio - interesting how I could see insane control in other groups but not in my own) but there are obviously others which are equally bad, then there are masonic lodges, trekies, footie teams etc etc...., any group really which polaries people into us and them. Then, the more essential the group is percieved to be, the more intensely the controls are applied.
One of the things which enchanted me about scn initially was the - oh I don't know yoda-ness(?) of the old timers - wise, serene, ability to grant huge amounts of beingness to a wog such as me - it was a total freedom to walk into the org. But they were brief halcyon days and they haven't lasted and maybe they could never last because humans just can't accept people who aren't part of their own way of thinking. There is a need to demonise others while making sure the faithfull don't get out of line. So you get the secret language, the guilt trips, the ends justifiying the means, the dangerous outsiders etc.
This is a muddle, - I have never been much good at explaining myself. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Lucretia
Patron with Honors
I can feel a big thought coming on:
To my mind, the thing that binds each of the groups together is the agreement that the activity/intention/goal etc is worthwhile, and the more worthwhile the activity/intention/goal, the harder the agreement is to disavow.
My agreement with scn was that the tech was the way out. I had disagreements with pretty much everything else but I put up with all of that because of my initial very strong agreement and I guess, desire for the agreement to be true. When I discovered, to my infinite relief, that the tech was not the way out, then the rest dissolved into thin air. There was nothing to stay for so mentally I was right out. Getting out physicaly is more difficult. Maybe this is very simplistic. A person can usually see the bad stuff but if underlying it all, there is some agreement that is still intact and has not been shattered by the bad stuff, then that person is going to stay, come what may. I don't think SO are stupid, they are just trapped as I was. We were all trapped to a greater or lesser degree, whether we were in the SO or not. The solution is to expose the lie and/or lies (because it occures to me that there could be more than one agreement binding a person to a group), whatever the lie might be. Or is all of this just huge load of old cobblers and it only applies to my particular situation?
To my mind, the thing that binds each of the groups together is the agreement that the activity/intention/goal etc is worthwhile, and the more worthwhile the activity/intention/goal, the harder the agreement is to disavow.
My agreement with scn was that the tech was the way out. I had disagreements with pretty much everything else but I put up with all of that because of my initial very strong agreement and I guess, desire for the agreement to be true. When I discovered, to my infinite relief, that the tech was not the way out, then the rest dissolved into thin air. There was nothing to stay for so mentally I was right out. Getting out physicaly is more difficult. Maybe this is very simplistic. A person can usually see the bad stuff but if underlying it all, there is some agreement that is still intact and has not been shattered by the bad stuff, then that person is going to stay, come what may. I don't think SO are stupid, they are just trapped as I was. We were all trapped to a greater or lesser degree, whether we were in the SO or not. The solution is to expose the lie and/or lies (because it occures to me that there could be more than one agreement binding a person to a group), whatever the lie might be. Or is all of this just huge load of old cobblers and it only applies to my particular situation?
Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Yeah, that was a great post.
Looking back on it, it was the old timers who kept me in the subject as well; those who cut their teeth on Scn in the days when you were not only allowed but encouraged to think with the subject rather than just parroting it.P.S. Your username just reminded me of a Megadeth track with a killer riff;
http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/lucretia.html
Boldgirl
Patron Meritorious
I agree wholeheartedly with this and I had the same thoughts. I had so many disagreements that I kept to myself but it was that promise of the tech to 'free me' that hooked me. Now that I look back-I am like free from what?
Boldgirl
Patron Meritorious
Honestly, in that situation, as with many others that have written with similiar circumstances to you, I definitely think it was so much harder than what I went through. I cant really imagine the strength you all had to have to be out with family disconnection and the suppression of being in the SO--to me you all are the strong ones. I had it easy by comparison.
Flag-2005
Patron with Honors
Of course no one wants to 'miss out' on the bridge to total freedom..
Of course no one wants to come out and say they were had for a million bucks.
The embarrasement in what you beleive keeps it to yourself.
Of course noone wants to be harrased and litigated. Not to mention libel/slander against you. etc etc
Of course no one wants to come out and say they were had for a million bucks.
The embarrasement in what you beleive keeps it to yourself.
Of course noone wants to be harrased and litigated. Not to mention libel/slander against you. etc etc
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
There is also Stockholmes Syndrome where the victim has come to identify with the aggressor.
degraded being
Sponsor
I got THEM to ask me to leave.
Had finished my 5 year contract (local org, not sea org). I think I had done a 2+half year contract before that. Anyhow they refused to see that although lron says you have to replace yrself when you leave post it cannot apply legally to the end of your contract because the contract which subjects you to that specific policy is no longer applicable!
I could see that Mr Dir. Com -or whatever, was a brick wall. I had a think and then I had a big, fat, juicy Cog-fucking-nition!!!:dancer: :dancer: :dancer:
THEY had to want me to leave.
But...how to achieve it. Well I took the advice from all the popular new age
books that I hadn't even read yet. I just "was able to have" my coggy woggy
and wait until the answer appeared about how to get it done. Anyhow I continued doing my duites but no extras and made no effort to look enthusiastic or uptone or happy about it.
After about 3 or 4 weeks a mission arrived from the cont. sea org base and on their first day their boss man came up to me and said: "You don't want to be here do you?" All purposeful and no nonsense-like. I said: "No" he said: "Alright, get out then" Oooooh he was sooooo sexy I wanted to stay another 5 years!! But I left; with no declare, or freeloaders bill or nuff'n.
If you have looked at TROM, I think it was a very tromish kind of win. (Maybe even level 5 WOW!!!)
Had finished my 5 year contract (local org, not sea org). I think I had done a 2+half year contract before that. Anyhow they refused to see that although lron says you have to replace yrself when you leave post it cannot apply legally to the end of your contract because the contract which subjects you to that specific policy is no longer applicable!
I could see that Mr Dir. Com -or whatever, was a brick wall. I had a think and then I had a big, fat, juicy Cog-fucking-nition!!!:dancer: :dancer: :dancer:
THEY had to want me to leave.
But...how to achieve it. Well I took the advice from all the popular new age
books that I hadn't even read yet. I just "was able to have" my coggy woggy
and wait until the answer appeared about how to get it done. Anyhow I continued doing my duites but no extras and made no effort to look enthusiastic or uptone or happy about it.
After about 3 or 4 weeks a mission arrived from the cont. sea org base and on their first day their boss man came up to me and said: "You don't want to be here do you?" All purposeful and no nonsense-like. I said: "No" he said: "Alright, get out then" Oooooh he was sooooo sexy I wanted to stay another 5 years!! But I left; with no declare, or freeloaders bill or nuff'n.
If you have looked at TROM, I think it was a very tromish kind of win. (Maybe even level 5 WOW!!!)
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Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Had finished my 5 year contract (local org, not sea org). I think I had done a 2+half year contract before that. Anyhow they refused to see that although lron says you have to replace yrself when you leave post it cannot apply legally to the end of your contract because the contract which subjects you to that specific policy is no longer applicable!
I could see that Mr Dir. Com -or whatever, was a brick wall. I had a think and then I had a big, fat, juicy Cog-fucking-nition!!!:dancer: :dancer: :dancer:
THEY had to want me to leave.
But...how to achieve it. Well I took the advice from all the popular new age
books that I hadn't even read yet. I just "was able to have" my coggy woggy
and wait until the answer appeared about how to get it done. Anyhow I continued doing my duites but no extras and made no effort to look enthusiastic or uptone or happy about it.
After about 3 or 4 weeks a mission arrived from the cont. sea org base and on their first day their boss man came up to me and said: "You don't want to be here do you?" All purposeful and no nonsense-like. I said: "No" he said: "Alright, get out then" Oooooh he was sooooo sexy I wanted to stay another 5 years!! But I left; with no declare, or freeloaders bill or nuff'n.
If you have looked at TROM, I think it was a very tromish kind of win. (Maybe even level 5 WOW!!!)
Well done! That strikes me as a BIG win.
thetanic
Gold Meritorious Patron
Some of us did that and found that the people around us weren't as OT as we'd have liked -- and that we weren't kicked out.
