Why are they dead- scientology kills

[Lovesnightsky]

With the recent killing of Mario Majorski in the church of scientology celebrity center the debate has touched upon the responsibility of the cult in the death of this man apart from having him shot in their carpark by one of their security men.

This got me looking at www.whyaretheydead.net. Apart from the suspicious deaths, which some think are direct murders from the church of scientology, there is a huge number of death by mental instability, such as suicides or murders committed by people who were not taking their meds or receiving psychiatric treatment for serious mental conditions.

Now, some in this board think that the cult is a religion and a church and therefore one cannot allocate responsibility to them for these death anymore than one could allocate suicides and murders by mentally unstable Catholics to the Catholic church.

Except there is ONE HUGE DIFFERENCE. As far as I know, no other religion sells itself as the "authority on the mind". There is one other religion that I could find which calls itself "Science of the Mind", but could not find any deaths in their ranks directly connected to their doctrine.

What organization that prides itself in making people more able, being an authority of the mind, and giving people extraordinary abilities "declares" people when they become mentally unstable?

Questions of whether the people who committed suicide or had psychotic breaks had or not had tendencies to these conditions before they became involved with the church of scientology are irrelevant. The fact is they were prayed upon by the cult and then, when their conditions worsened, were discarded with nowhere to go and with beliefs that stopped them from seeking help from professionals.

I want to see the governments of the countries where these deaths occurred to have an inquiry as to how the cult treats its parishoners when things go wrong.
I think they will then find out that the church of scientology is not a religion or a church, but a predator.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Well, there're many factors at play. One is that Mario was ex CofS and not involved in any courses or auditing in the FZ. The last time anyone delivered anything to him or he was in any Scn type milieu was years and years before his death. So, given that, I'd not blame CofS or Hubbard or Scn or the FZ or the guy down the street for Mario's death.

I would, however, blame CofS for a number of deaths that have occurred. There've been suicides, like that of Greg Bashaw. There've been deaths like that of Lisa McPherson. There've been people who didn't receive medical care or didn't receive enough of it or on a timely basis because of CofS. There are probably some deaths due to that. I might not pin that on Hubbard, though, necessarily since he did say that people should obtain medical care if they're ill, but then again he did create a cultic milieu where people contantly have to go "Mother may I" for everything, practically, so he does bear some responsibility there. Plus, CofS has ruined many lives, offloading Sea Orgers because they were old or ill and had nowhere to go, demoting people, disconnection, bad conditions on staff, etc.

As far as messing with the mind goes, well, there are lots of suicides and psychotic breaks among people who were receiving psychological counselling or psychiatric treatment, too, and I doubt very much that the ratio of Scn'ists who suicide or go psychotic to the former would make Scn look bad at all.

 

[Lovesnightsky]

As far as messing with the mind goes, well, there are lots of suicides and psychotic breaks among people who were receiving psychological counselling or psychiatric treatment, too, and I doubt very much that the ratio of Scn'ists who suicide or go psychotic to the former would make Scn look bad at all.

That is correct. And it is my point. These people, the ones who give psychological counseling or psychiatric treatment, are in the same business of the mind. AND THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE.
When someone commits suicide or kills someone else while being treated by a particular professional, the professional has to answer to the law. There is an inquiry. This decides if the professional did nothing wrong and the deaths were inevitable, or whether they worsened the case. That's why they are required to have insurance.

 

[Thrak]

With the recent killing of Mario Majorski in the church of scientology celebrity center the debate has touched upon the responsibility of the cult in the death of this man apart from having him shot in their carpark by one of their security men.

This got me looking at www.whyaretheydead.net. Apart from the suspicious deaths, which some think are direct murders from the church of scientology, there is a huge number of death by mental instability, such as suicides or murders committed by people who were not taking their meds or receiving psychiatric treatment for serious mental conditions.

Now, some in this board think that the cult is a religion and a church and therefore one cannot allocate responsibility to them for these death anymore than one could allocate suicides and murders by mentally unstable Catholics to the Catholic church.

Except there is ONE HUGE DIFFERENCE. As far as I know, no other religion sells itself as the "authority on the mind". There is one other religion that I could find which calls itself "Science of the Mind", but could not find any deaths in their ranks directly connected to their doctrine.

What organization that prides itself in making people more able, being an authority of the mind, and giving people extraordinary abilities "declares" people when they become mentally unstable?

Questions of whether the people who committed suicide or had psychotic breaks had or not had tendencies to these conditions before they became involved with the church of scientology are irrelevant. The fact is they were prayed upon by the cult and then, when their conditions worsened, were discarded with nowhere to go and with beliefs that stopped them from seeking help from professionals.

I want to see the governments of the countries where these deaths occurred to have an inquiry as to how the cult treats its parishoners when things go wrong.
I think they will then find out that the church of scientology is not a religion or a church, but a predator.

I agree with most of what you are saying. Part of the argument I had from another thread came from watching a documentary about religions and that they all start as cults and the similarities with scn were amazing. But I tend to balk when people speculate as to what caused a particular person to lose it. It's just impossible to prove what causes what in any given individual's mind, but it does seem like a lot here have seen the L's send people over the bend. I once was seriously out list and it came close to making me do something crazy but it did destim in a couple of weeks and there didn't seem any permanent damage. Maybe in some it can be a problem for years or the rest of their life I don't know. But I do agree they are practicing a psycho therapy that can produce disastrous results with no account to the law or anybody else. But to me it is the structure of the laws that allows it to happen. Nobody wants to mess with "religions". I hope some of these events can change the laws as I agree they do prey on people like this and dump them without remorse when the cash is dry. I'm not sure how they get away with it.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I just don't think we're/anyone is going to get it 100% right. I think there's always inherent risks and I think we already have way too much governmental intervention in our lives as it is.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

That is correct. And it is my point. These people, the ones who give psychological counseling or psychiatric treatment, are in the same business of the mind. AND THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE.

When someone commits suicide or kills someone else while being treated by a particular professional, the professional has to answer to the law. There is an inquiry. This decides if the professional did nothing wrong and the deaths were inevitable, or whether they worsened the case. That's why they are required to have insurance.

Apologies in advance if this is too long for some people;

Sorry LNS, but I think Fluff's right. Nothing excuses the CofS's near criminal negligence and callousness when dealing with vulnerable people and they should certainly be held accountable in that regard. However, I don't think there ever can be truly risk free psychiatry or therapy and there is a significant downside to the demand that all mental health services be made risk free.

The trouble is (and I know this because my cousin's a psychiatrist) this level of accountability has a distorting effect on the help they are able to give, because the first thing a psychiatrist has to ask himself when taking on a new patient is what his or her suicide risk is and to make sure that they cover themselves in the event of that risk.

It enforces a level of self-concern which isn't very healthy for the profession. Patients are released from hospital not because they're in particularly good shape but because it's judged that they're no longer thought likely to kill themselves and it's therefore "safe" from the hospital's point of view to release them.

My dad's fiancee's mother took her own life (by drowning off the Barbican) one winter over twenty years ago when she was being treated for depression. It was very sad but I don't think anyone blamed her doctor or psychiatrist and nor should they have done.

You and I have both read Eckhart Tolle; you may recall that just before Tolle's great breakthrough, he was feeling suicidal. I've read similar accounts from others who have made a big jump in awareness, such as Byron Katie (creator of "The Work)". Great pain and great advancement do seem to go together sometimes - it's not a smooth curve upwards into higher and more pleasant states of being by any means.

Not (necessarily) connected to Eckhart; I went through a very bad phase myself on my OT levels in the freezone where I was feeling suicidal at times, but fortunately I eventually found a good auditor who was able to dig me out of it. (The Rudolf Steiner people also helped; I did some art and sculpture courses with them and that gave me some stability). Probably one reason I'm not wild on the "OTs".

 

[Thrak]

Since leaving I have had various feelings about the legitimacy of "the tech" and after having months to think about it from my own investigation instead of "enforced reality", I do think there is something in there. The experience I mentioned above of going "out list" was one of the big things that convinced me at the time. At the time it happened, I didn't know what it meant to be out list and didn't buy it and it didn't read on a list correction list. But I felt BAD! It did go away after a couple of weeks, but it wasn't resolved until somebody helped me fix the list. Who actually came up with this I have no idea but it pretty much went exactly like the hcobs said it would. And to me seeing little pieces like that work, made me more willing to accept the ot levels - which to me at this point are bunk. But as a psychotherapy, I think scn - the grades at least - is as valid as many things out there and is in many ways a step in the right direction. There is stuff you actually DO instead of just talk or take drugs, people are trained on techniques. The problem was hubbard was a paranoid ego maniac and didn't know when to quit. But this is why I comment when people say things like "quack psychotherapy". A huge percentage of psychotherapy is quack psychotherapy. Just take something like anger management google it and see what comes up. One guys says take drugs, another says hypnosis and another has group therapy. Then somebody else has herbs or something like that. Maybe you can find somebody who can give you what you need but you will be lucky if you do. And when people talk about "meds" being the cure all remember that a long list of killings have been done by people who had them in their system. Not saying that was the cause, but it didn't seem to be the cure either. The point I guess I am making is that understanding of the mind is a very primitive state and that is a big reason why things like scio are still in existence. It's like an election where both candidates suck.

 

[Lovesnightsky]

I agree that sometimes the CoF$ is not responsible for deaths and suicides but the list is long and in some cases, and in my opinion, a lot of cases, they are responsible for these deaths.
Having the CoF$ treated like any other mental treatment institution will make them more responsible in their actions toward their "parishioners".
The main reason the USA has such a bad rep for releasing mentally unstable people into the streets is because of insurance, or lack of, by the patients. Not because the doctors are in some way afraid of consequences. It is not a perfect system, true, but with the cult there is no system in place, they are totally off the grid.

 

[Lovesnightsky]

If held accountable, would they be so keen on using reverse auditing on people? It goes on, and will continue to go on. There are people in this board who had first hand experience of this. They were the lucky ones, they were strong and survived it. Others were not so lucky. It is murder.

 

[Martini]

this is just a thought, and it could be way off, but I was thinking about the paralells between someone who was ex-staff or ex-sea org for a considerable amount of time and then leaves or is declared, and someone like a Vietnam war vet who comes home to a society that doesn't understand him and that he has a hard time functioning in.

Suicides and such were much higher for those vets, if I'm not mistaken.

Perhaps the ultimate torture is not having a hat in life, with the added condition that they held an important one earlier on, lost in a maelstrom.

 

[Been Done Had]

this is just a thought, and it could be way off, but I was thinking about the paralells between someone who was ex-staff or ex-sea org for a considerable amount of time and then leaves or is declared, and someone like a Vietnam war vet who comes home to a society that doesn't understand him and that he has a hard time functioning in.

Suicides and such were much higher for those vets, if I'm not mistaken.

Perhaps the ultimate torture is not having a hat in life, with the added condition that they held an important one earlier on, lost in a maelstrom.

Your right. It sucks to ride in the clown car after you were the ringmaster. Soldiers who leave the uniform, cops who retire are all at high risk for suicide. Suicide is tied to identity, if your identity is "no longer valid" and deleting it starts looking like a solution.

One of the hardest things to do in life is rebuild yourself after a group you belonged to rejects you.

Now combine that with the belief that no one else can help you but the group you left and that is a deadly mixture.

Scn gives its member an allergic reaction to any other social/mental science. It shuts the door on you, then shuts the door on outside help.

Sadly, suicide makes sense for some, but only when they are on a state of mind where no such decision should be made in the first place! (Catch 22)

I have actually heard depressed Scientologists say they will just drop their body and pick up a body in a wealthy public's family.

Very sad.

Martini... I predict you will be ringmaster of many circuses soon!!

 

[Martini]

Your right. It sucks to ride in the clown car after you were the ringmaster. Soldiers who leave the uniform, cops who retire are all at high risk for suicide. Suicide is tied to identity, if your identity is "no longer valid" the deleting it starts looking like a solution.

One of the hardest things to do in life is rebuild yourself after a group you belonged to rejects you.

Now combine that with the belief that no one else can help you but the group you left and that is a deadly mixture.

Scn gives its member an allergic reaction to any other social/mental science. It shuts the door on you, then shuts the door on outside help.

Sadly, suicide makes sense for some, but only when they are on a state of mind where no such decision should be made in the first place! (Catch 22)

I have actually heard depressed Scientologists say they will just drop their body and pick up a body in a wealthy public's family.

Very sad.

another thing that brings to mind is the reality in scn that one can just go pick up another body. this also lends to the notion of suicide as a solution. paralells exist in some cultures that also have this reality. "Harri Karri" (sp) for example, where one commits suicide over a loss of dignity and pride.


that's a dangerous element to such beliefs.

Martini... I predict you will be ringmaster of many circuses soon!!

lol

it's so hard to pick the right circus, however.

seems scn taps in to goals to help people. the individual gets a surge or whatever from fulfilling that goal (at least in his eyes, keeping in mind scn hasn't accomplished hardly anything in real terms for the planet.) Other jobs look so empty and boring.

that's part of the glue.

 

[Been Done Had]

...it's so hard to pick the right circus, however.

seems scn taps in to goals to help people. the individual gets a surge or whatever from fulfilling that goal (at least in his eyes, keeping in mind scn hasn't accomplished hardly anything in real terms for the planet.) Other jobs look so empty and boring.

that's part of the glue.

The circus will find you. I was in a similar boat. Went from a total loss and having nothing (emotional, spiritual, material) to having... well... To finding my niche and building a great life.

Once you let go of the loss, the past. Then the next phase will present itself. So much time is spent "handling" life in Scientology that we never learn how to live it. Life is not not scripted postulates, causes and effects, or a series of interlocking scales.

People rise to the level of responsibility they can handle. Sounds like you can shoulder a ton. Any game you get involved in will assume importance because YOU are in it. The real world is short on leaders.

I am so much stronger and cagier for my experience in the church. I spot manipulation a mile away. A lot of the tech works in life. A lot only works inside the bubble of the church. Start sorting.

BDH

 

[Martini]

The circus will find you. I was in a similar boat. Went from a total loss and having nothing (emotional, spiritual, material) to having... well... To finding my niche and building a great life.

Once you let go of the loss, the past. Then the next phase will present itself. So much time is spent "handling" life in Scientology that we never learn how to live it. Life is not not scripted postulates, causes and effects, or a series of interlocking scales.

People rise to the level of responsibility they can handle. Sounds like you can shoulder a ton. Any game you get involved in will assume importance because YOU are in it. The real world is short on leaders.

I am so much stronger and cagier for my experience in the church. I spot manipulation a mile away. A lot of the tech works in life. A lot only works inside the bubble of the church. Start sorting.

BDH

thanks for this post.

You reminded me of a short story that happened recently (actually interesting variations of this concept have occurred in many of my classes) in my college class "Public Speaking".

In the class you have to give public speeches to the class of course, and I have a ton of experience with this from having given so many speeches in Scn.

So I gave my speech, and used a lot of intention, impingement, tone scale lifting, two-way communication, total confront of every individual in the room, perfect volume, humor, etc. and when I got done, everyone madly applauded, and one of the students emphatically asked me (in awe), "WHO ARE YOU????" lol.

The speech was on affinity and free expression of it. I actually got all of them to hug someone else next to them. lol. A few of the females had tears in their eyes. That was fun.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Hara Kiri is what Westerners refer to as seppuku. The latter is the Japanese term for it.

Of course bodies are just vehicles and vias for us but, fact is, suicide is very damaging to a being and any mindset where life is considered cheap or expendable is damaging to those involved and to society.