Why Did Aftermath Never Do an Episode on the Death of Kyle Brennan?

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
I'm not sure how you would know his motivation for doing what he did.

I didn't know Mike Rinder back at that time (or presently). But if he was a true believer, and he committed crimes, I would think he did it because it was part of the "scriptures", and it was the "greatest good".

It's possible that the fear of being disconnected from his family was a motivation, but again, how would you know that?

I simply repeated Rinder's reason for staying. It's in the part that you snipped. Here it is again:

Earlier I said:
Also from the Aftermath transcript, above, Rinder states: "And the reason that I had stayed, was because of my children, my wife, my mother, my brother, my sister. And that if I left, I would lose all of them."

During the years Rinder had "stayed," he committed crimes against persons for the unlawful purpose of silencing or destroying them. The "reason" he stayed and committed crimes against such persons was not, as some people argue, because he was brainwashed, but because he was extorted. Relevantly, he had to know what he was doing.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I simply repeated Rinder's reason for staying. It's in the part that you snipped. Here it is again:
OK, I got what you're saying.

And *maybe* you are correct in what you said his motivation was.

But some people wanted badly to leave because of the insanity of being in the Sea Org, but still were true believers to a large extent, believing in the tech, and retaining admiration for LRH. That's where my mind was personally at the time when I left the S.O.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
OK, I got what you're saying.

And *maybe* you are correct in what you said his motivation was.

But some people wanted badly to leave because of the insanity of being in the Sea Org, but still were true believers to a large extent, believing in the tech, and retaining admiration for LRH. That's where my mind was personally at the time when I left the S.O.
What Rinder said in the Aftermath is consistent with what he told Tony Ortega (0:35) and it really had nothing to do with being a true believer etc.:

I was in a similar mindset to yours in the instant before I had my own rude awakening.
 

Tanchi

Patron with Honors
I would actually love to hear from other OSA or GO members what they actually knew, and havent divulged publicly. And why. If it is expected by some of Mike Rinder, why not everyone else who has publicly claimed to have been upper echelon in Co$? Under Hubbard or Miscavige?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
What Rinder said in the Aftermath is consistent with what he told Tony Ortega (0:35) and it really had nothing to do with being a true believer etc.:

I was in a similar mindset to yours in the instant before I had my own rude awakening.
In the two references you provided, Mike Rinder speaks about why he stayed in, and I agree that threatening someone with family disconnection if they were to leave is extortion. But he doesn't speak about committing any crimes, or what his mindset was when committing any crimes, and from those two excerpts you provided I can't make that jump as to the motivation he might of had when committing any crimes.

I don't have any opinion on what his mindset was back at that time as I didn't know him, nor do I know enough history from back at that time.
But I do know some good people that were involved with Scientology that did some really bad things because they genuinely believed it was the greatest good or they believed that our eternity could be negatively impacted if they didn't do those things.

From a legal perspective it may not matter what someone's mindset was when committing a crime. A judge isn't going to agree that the "end justifies the means", and may not consider that being a Scientologist is a mitigating factor in the commission of any crime. But for me personally, I have a difficult time judging some of these people harshly, because I know first-hand some of the insane stuff one can come to believe as a Scientologist.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
What Rinder said in the Aftermath is consistent with what he told Tony Ortega (0:35) and it really had nothing to do with being a true believer etc.:

I was in a similar mindset to yours in the instant before I had my own rude awakening.
I have a couple of questions out of that. Mike decided to blow, he had no money but managed to survive in London for about two weeks total. How did he pay for the flop houses, food and tickets to go to the United States? What did he use for ID?

He had the current telephone numbers of Ronnie and Biddy and Tom Devocht. He was in disfavor for a long time, so how did he have those numbers?

If anyone has any actual answers to that I would like to know but I don't want to hear a bunch of speculation, just information that you know regarding those things.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I have a couple of questions out of that. Mike decided to blow, he had no money but managed to survive in London for about two weeks total. How did he pay for the flop houses, food and tickets to go to the United States? What did he use for ID?

He had the current telephone numbers of Ronnie and Biddy and Tom Devocht. He was in disfavor for a long time, so how did he have those numbers?

If anyone has any actual answers to that I would like to know but I don't want to hear a bunch of speculation, just information that you know regarding those things.
As far as ID, he would have used the same ID/passport that got him from California to London.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
In the two references you provided, Mike Rinder speaks about why he stayed in, and I agree that threatening someone with family disconnection if they were to leave is extortion. But he doesn't speak about committing any crimes, or what his mindset was when committing any crimes, and from those two excerpts you provided I can't make that jump as to the motivation he might of had when committing any crimes.

I don't have any opinion on what his mindset was back at that time as I didn't know him, nor do I know enough history from back at that time.
But I do know some good people that were involved with Scientology that did some really bad things because they genuinely believed it was the greatest good or they believed that our eternity could be negatively impacted if they didn't do those things.

From a legal perspective it may not matter what someone's mindset was when committing a crime. A judge isn't going to agree that the "end justifies the means", and may not consider that being a Scientologist is a mitigating factor in the commission of any crime. But for me personally, I have a difficult time judging some of these people harshly, because I know first-hand some of the insane stuff one can come to believe as a Scientologist.

Here is what Rinder said in the Aftermath about his actions to silence and destroy people:

Aftermath Season 1 Episode 2 said:
[00:06:10.238]

[Screen: MIKE RINDER
SCIENTOLOGIST FOR 46 YEARS
FORMER INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
FOR THE CHURCH]

MR (in studio): My name is Mike Rinder. I was a Scientologist for forty-six years. I was the International spokesperson for Scientology for more than twenty years until I left in 2007.

[Scientology promotional video:
DM: Please welcome Mr. Mike Rinder.]

[00:06:26.798]
MR: Part of my job was to discredit and destroy critics who spoke out against the Church.

[Scene: Scientology organization; night shot]
[Scene: "Squirrelbusters with cameras]
[Scene: sidewalk scene.]

MR (off camera): If the Church believed that someone was an enemy, and needed to be silenced or destroyed, it was my job, and I did it.

[Scene: Mike Rinder looking at computer screen.]

[Scene: Street scene; being followed by a vehicle]

MR (off camera): If I was told to follow someone, I made it happen.

[Scene: Scientology promotional video of Alex Gibney, Tom DeVocht and Mike Rinder]

[Scene: Squirrelbuster footage]

MR (off camera); If I was told to discredit someone, dig up dirt on them, get their backgrounds investigated, I made it happen. Everything from following them twenty-four hours a day to having people camped outside their home to people knocking on their doors...

[Scene: Rathbun residence
Monique Rathbun (off camera, to woman at door of the Rathbun's house): Okay I'm going to say it one more time. You are on my property. You can leave now.]

MR (off camera): ...to being vilified on the Internet...

00:06:58.233]
[Scene: Scientology website about Marc Headley]

MR (off camera): ...to following them wherever they traveled. I was the guy.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Here is what Rinder said in the Aftermath about his actions to silence and destroy people:
On that Aftermath show transcript you pasted, he clearly does acknowledge committing crimes when working for CoS. If that's one of the references you gave me earlier, I apologize.

Again though, the extortion you referenced might be the reason he stayed in as long as he did, but I don't see the evidence to support your conclusion that the extortion is also the reason he committed the crimes.
It may be, but I don't see the evidence to support that.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
On that Aftermath show transcript you pasted, he clearly does acknowledge committing crimes when working for CoS. If that's one of the references you gave me earlier, I apologize.

Again though, the extortion you referenced might be the reason he stayed in as long as he did, but I don't see the evidence to support your conclusion that the extortion is also the reason he committed the crimes.
It may be, but I don't see the evidence to support that.
I didn't make the conclusion that you say I made.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I didn't make the conclusion that you say I made.

OK, maybe I misunderstood your post. I was referring to this part of it:
During the years Rinder had "stayed," he committed crimes against persons for the unlawful purpose of silencing or destroying them. The "reason" he stayed and committed crimes against such persons was not, as some people argue, because he was brainwashed, but because he was extorted. Relevantly, he had to know what he was doing.
The issue I have with it is that you're judging his beliefs and motivation during that time period, and doing so without being able to look at a snapshot of all what was going through his head during that time period.

If the only reason he continued to stay was because he was extorted than I would tend to agree with your statement. I just doubt that that was the only contributing factor. His beliefs about Scientology were formed over 40 years, probably starting out at age six (when his parents got in), and I would bet that they were a contributing factor as well to him staying.
 
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Caroline

Patron Meritorious
OK, maybe I misunderstood your post. I was referring to this part of it:

The issue I have with it is that you're judging his beliefs and motivation during that time period, and doing so without being able to look at a snapshot of all what was going through his head during that time period.

If the only reason he continued to stay was because he was extorted than I would tend to agree with your statement. I just doubt that that was the only contributing factor. His beliefs about Scientology were formed over 40 years, probably starting out at age six (when his parents got in), and I would be that they were a contributing factor as well to him staying.
I'm trying to stick with what he said.

In how he explained why he stayed, he was being threatened with his family connections. IANAL, but that's extortion.

AFAIK, Rinder didn't say he committed crimes on post because he was being extorted. He just said that silencing or destroying people was his job and he did it. So there's also the Nuremberg Defense. What he did during the time he "stayed" was his job, which he says was silencing or destroying people.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Love this part:

[Screen: MIKE RINDER
SCIENTOLOGIST FOR 46 YEARS
FORMER INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
FOR THE CHURCH]

Did you see what they did there?

FORMER INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Love this part:

[Screen: MIKE RINDER
SCIENTOLOGIST FOR 46 YEARS
FORMER INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
FOR THE CHURCH]

Did you see what they did there?

FORMER INTERNATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
Yes.

From Rinder's declaration in Monique Rathbun (December 3, 2013):

Mike Rinder said:
For most of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was a senior official in the Church of Scientology International (CSI), the so-called mother church of Scientology. I was on the Board of Directors of CSI from its inception in 1982 until I left in 2007.

During the majority of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was the most senior official within CSI responsible for “external affairs”, meaning government and media relations, investigations and intelligence operations, as well as all litigation and contract matters. This function is performed by the Office of Special Affairs (“OSA”) and I was the head of OSA for most of this time.

https://www.mikerindersblog.org/mike-rinder-texas-declaration/
CSI was incorporated November 19, 1981. Xenu-directory has documents that list Mike Rinder being a Director in 1988, but not earlier. Can anyone document Rinder's claim that he was on the Board of Directors of CSI from its inception until he left in 2007? Obviously he was on the Board of Directors at the time of Kyle Brennan's death.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I'm investing in some timeline software that can graphically show Mike Rinder's career in the Church of Scientology.

I'm going to set up an email address where people can send factual times and events where we can place Mike Rinder in certain roles, running which ops on whom, making what appearances where, and destroying which critics and squirrels at what times and places.

I'll start a thread here to kick it off.

This bullshit that he has been running on everyone for 12 years since he's been out is now going to end.
 
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Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Here's more timeline information, relative to Mike Rinder's account of how he got out of the Hole.

Aftermath Season 1 Episode 2 said:
[00:20:26.367]
MR (in studio): Miscavige had me pulled out in the Hole and charged me with the responsibility of stopping the BBC from ever airing any program about Scientology.
[Scenes: Image of David Miscavige; aerial view of Int Base]
MR: And most particularly, stopping them from ever airing any allegations that Miscavige had physically assaulted anyone.
[00:20:45.187]
This was an opportunity for me to get back in good graces. To get out of the Hole. I mean, I'd been there for almost two years. That if I came out and I did a good job of this, I would be able to extricate myself (laughs) from being a prisoner in the Hole and go back to somewhat normal life as a servant of the Sea Organization.
Based on John Sweeney's account in Church of Fear: In early March 2007, Mike Rinder, Tommy Davis, attorney Bill Walsh and Scientologist Bob Keenan met with John Sweeney for two days at Saint Hill to try and work out an agreement for Sweeney's BBC project. They did not reach an agreement. Sweeney then traveled to Clearwater in time for the L. Ron Hubbard birthday event, which, when I was living in CW, was always held on or before his birthday on the 13th. The following day, (ca. March 14th), Rinder and Tommy Davis met Sweeney in the lobby of his hotel. (pp. 30-38)
 

freethinker

Sponsor
As far as ID, he would have used the same ID/passport that got him from California to London.
OK, it was my understanding, and I may be wrong, that your ID's were confiscated by the SO so you could not leave. If Mike still had his ID then Miscavige did not consider him a blow risk.

That would mean that Miscavige trusted that Rinder would not blow even if he had possession of his ID and Rinder was convincing enough to make Miscavige believe, whether he was sec checked before he went to London or not, AND, he allowed Mikle to have enough money on him to do all that he did. Note: If Miscavige allowed him that money, he never called it stolen. Otherwise it was Mike's money so how did he get a hold of it?

Mike was in the hole prior to that. It was my understanding that Miscavige sent Rinder to London to watch over the other guy, can't think of his name right ,,, Tommy Davis handling of the BBC guy. This means Miscavige was comfortable enough to give Mike free reign after digging him out of the hole.

Doesn't seem likely.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
OK, it was my understanding, and I may be wrong, that your ID's were confiscated by the SO so you could not leave. If Mike still had his ID then Miscavige did not consider him a blow risk.

That would mean that Miscavige trusted that Rinder would not blow even if he had possession of his ID and Rinder was convincing enough to make Miscavige believe, whether he was sec checked before he went to London or not, AND, he allowed Mikle to have enough money on him to do all that he did. Note: If Miscavige allowed him that money, he never called it stolen. Otherwise it was Mike's money so how did he get a hold of it?

Mike was in the hole prior to that. It was my understanding that Miscavige sent Rinder to London to watch over the other guy, can't think of his name right ,,, Tommy Davis handling of the BBC guy. This means Miscavige was comfortable enough to give Mike free reign after digging him out of the hole.

Doesn't seem likely.
I believe that passports are routinely locked away on Sea Org Bases, Miscavige would have to give Rinder his passport in order to get to London.

I don't know if Miscavige trusted him but might of been desperate, so let him go. He was concerned about Sweeney reporting on his violence at the Int Base.

As far as the money, this is just speculative, but it's possible one of his contacts he had who already left the S.O. wired him some money.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Here's more timeline information, relative to Mike Rinder's account of how he got out of the Hole.


Based on John Sweeney's account in Church of Fear: In early March 2007, Mike Rinder, Tommy Davis, attorney Bill Walsh and Scientologist Bob Keenan met with John Sweeney for two days at Saint Hill to try and work out an agreement for Sweeney's BBC project. They did not reach an agreement. Sweeney then traveled to Clearwater in time for the L. Ron Hubbard birthday event, which, when I was living in CW, was always held on or before his birthday on the 13th. The following day, (ca. March 14th), Rinder and Tommy Davis met Sweeney in the lobby of his hotel. (pp. 30-38)
Thank you very much for this, Caroline.

This is very valuable.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I believe that passports are routinely locked away on Sea Org Bases, Miscavige would have to give Rinder his passport in order to get to London.

I don't know if Miscavige trusted him but might of been desperate, so let him go. He was concerned about Sweeney reporting on his violence at the Int Base.

As far as the money, this is just speculative, but it's possible one of his contacts he had who already left the S.O. wired him some money.
Two things about that. miscavige could have issued an order that Mike could only have his passport to get there but he had to turn it over to whoever Miscavige would have with him.

Mike was in the hole, he would not be able to receive money or have contacts while in there. How would Mike get the contact info? How would he be able to communicate on Blackberries issued by the SO without Miscavige knowing? He did not use the internet chat rooms right away but would need the contact info prior.
 
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