ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Why Did Aftermath Never Do an Episode on the Death of Kyle Brennan?

Discussion in 'Office of Special Affairs' started by Alanzo, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    I simply repeated Rinder's reason for staying. It's in the part that you snipped. Here it is again:

    Little David likes this.
  2. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    OK, I got what you're saying.

    And *maybe* you are correct in what you said his motivation was.

    But some people wanted badly to leave because of the insanity of being in the Sea Org, but still were true believers to a large extent, believing in the tech, and retaining admiration for LRH. That's where my mind was personally at the time when I left the S.O.
  3. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    What Rinder said in the Aftermath is consistent with what he told Tony Ortega (0:35) and it really had nothing to do with being a true believer etc.:

    I was in a similar mindset to yours in the instant before I had my own rude awakening.
  4. Tanchi

    Tanchi Patron with Honors

    I would actually love to hear from other OSA or GO members what they actually knew, and havent divulged publicly. And why. If it is expected by some of Mike Rinder, why not everyone else who has publicly claimed to have been upper echelon in Co$? Under Hubbard or Miscavige?
    freethinker and Type4_PTS like this.
  5. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    In the two references you provided, Mike Rinder speaks about why he stayed in, and I agree that threatening someone with family disconnection if they were to leave is extortion. But he doesn't speak about committing any crimes, or what his mindset was when committing any crimes, and from those two excerpts you provided I can't make that jump as to the motivation he might of had when committing any crimes.

    I don't have any opinion on what his mindset was back at that time as I didn't know him, nor do I know enough history from back at that time.
    But I do know some good people that were involved with Scientology that did some really bad things because they genuinely believed it was the greatest good or they believed that our eternity could be negatively impacted if they didn't do those things.

    From a legal perspective it may not matter what someone's mindset was when committing a crime. A judge isn't going to agree that the "end justifies the means", and may not consider that being a Scientologist is a mitigating factor in the commission of any crime. But for me personally, I have a difficult time judging some of these people harshly, because I know first-hand some of the insane stuff one can come to believe as a Scientologist.
  6. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    I have a couple of questions out of that. Mike decided to blow, he had no money but managed to survive in London for about two weeks total. How did he pay for the flop houses, food and tickets to go to the United States? What did he use for ID?

    He had the current telephone numbers of Ronnie and Biddy and Tom Devocht. He was in disfavor for a long time, so how did he have those numbers?

    If anyone has any actual answers to that I would like to know but I don't want to hear a bunch of speculation, just information that you know regarding those things.
    AryaZ likes this.
  7. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    As far as ID, he would have used the same ID/passport that got him from California to London.
  8. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Here is what Rinder said in the Aftermath about his actions to silence and destroy people:

    Type4_PTS likes this.
  9. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    On that Aftermath show transcript you pasted, he clearly does acknowledge committing crimes when working for CoS. If that's one of the references you gave me earlier, I apologize.

    Again though, the extortion you referenced might be the reason he stayed in as long as he did, but I don't see the evidence to support your conclusion that the extortion is also the reason he committed the crimes.
    It may be, but I don't see the evidence to support that.
  10. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    I didn't make the conclusion that you say I made.
    Little David likes this.
  11. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    OK, maybe I misunderstood your post. I was referring to this part of it:
    The issue I have with it is that you're judging his beliefs and motivation during that time period, and doing so without being able to look at a snapshot of all what was going through his head during that time period.

    If the only reason he continued to stay was because he was extorted than I would tend to agree with your statement. I just doubt that that was the only contributing factor. His beliefs about Scientology were formed over 40 years, probably starting out at age six (when his parents got in), and I would bet that they were a contributing factor as well to him staying.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  12. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    I'm trying to stick with what he said.

    In how he explained why he stayed, he was being threatened with his family connections. IANAL, but that's extortion.

    AFAIK, Rinder didn't say he committed crimes on post because he was being extorted. He just said that silencing or destroying people was his job and he did it. So there's also the Nuremberg Defense. What he did during the time he "stayed" was his job, which he says was silencing or destroying people.
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Love this part:

    [Screen: MIKE RINDER

    Did you see what they did there?

  14. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious


    From Rinder's declaration in Monique Rathbun (December 3, 2013):

    CSI was incorporated November 19, 1981. Xenu-directory has documents that list Mike Rinder being a Director in 1988, but not earlier. Can anyone document Rinder's claim that he was on the Board of Directors of CSI from its inception until he left in 2007? Obviously he was on the Board of Directors at the time of Kyle Brennan's death.
  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I'm investing in some timeline software that can graphically show Mike Rinder's career in the Church of Scientology.

    I'm going to set up an email address where people can send factual times and events where we can place Mike Rinder in certain roles, running which ops on whom, making what appearances where, and destroying which critics and squirrels at what times and places.

    I'll start a thread here to kick it off.

    This bullshit that he has been running on everyone for 12 years since he's been out is now going to end.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  16. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Here's more timeline information, relative to Mike Rinder's account of how he got out of the Hole.

    Based on John Sweeney's account in Church of Fear: In early March 2007, Mike Rinder, Tommy Davis, attorney Bill Walsh and Scientologist Bob Keenan met with John Sweeney for two days at Saint Hill to try and work out an agreement for Sweeney's BBC project. They did not reach an agreement. Sweeney then traveled to Clearwater in time for the L. Ron Hubbard birthday event, which, when I was living in CW, was always held on or before his birthday on the 13th. The following day, (ca. March 14th), Rinder and Tommy Davis met Sweeney in the lobby of his hotel. (pp. 30-38)
  17. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    OK, it was my understanding, and I may be wrong, that your ID's were confiscated by the SO so you could not leave. If Mike still had his ID then Miscavige did not consider him a blow risk.

    That would mean that Miscavige trusted that Rinder would not blow even if he had possession of his ID and Rinder was convincing enough to make Miscavige believe, whether he was sec checked before he went to London or not, AND, he allowed Mikle to have enough money on him to do all that he did. Note: If Miscavige allowed him that money, he never called it stolen. Otherwise it was Mike's money so how did he get a hold of it?

    Mike was in the hole prior to that. It was my understanding that Miscavige sent Rinder to London to watch over the other guy, can't think of his name right ,,, Tommy Davis handling of the BBC guy. This means Miscavige was comfortable enough to give Mike free reign after digging him out of the hole.

    Doesn't seem likely.
    AryaZ likes this.
  18. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I believe that passports are routinely locked away on Sea Org Bases, Miscavige would have to give Rinder his passport in order to get to London.

    I don't know if Miscavige trusted him but might of been desperate, so let him go. He was concerned about Sweeney reporting on his violence at the Int Base.

    As far as the money, this is just speculative, but it's possible one of his contacts he had who already left the S.O. wired him some money.
  19. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Thank you very much for this, Caroline.

    This is very valuable.
  20. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Two things about that. miscavige could have issued an order that Mike could only have his passport to get there but he had to turn it over to whoever Miscavige would have with him.

    Mike was in the hole, he would not be able to receive money or have contacts while in there. How would Mike get the contact info? How would he be able to communicate on Blackberries issued by the SO without Miscavige knowing? He did not use the internet chat rooms right away but would need the contact info prior.