Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I have a question for Freezoners and "Independent" Scientologsits. The question is, "Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

I used to think some of the "Tech" had value. I thought I had extracted those small, low level, non-delusional, non-paranoid, portions of the Tech -- the Comm Course, the TRs, the ARC triangle, the KRC triangle (properly understood), etc. -- that were useful and unique (or, more precisely, new and unique developments or elaborations on prior ideas) that made the effort was worth it.

I have since decided that I was wrong. All of the "Tech" is dangerous. None of it, on balance, has value given the costs (discussed below) associated with practicing, studying, delivering or receiving the "Tech" even outside the official Church of Scientology. I believe this is true for two reasons.

First, I don't see Freezoners and Independent Scientologists using, much less concentrating on, much less exclusively using, the low level stuff that I thought was practical, useful and, quite frankly, not delusional. My point may be illustrated by a post I recently saw on WWP -- here it is:
Body thetans = dead space aliens from OT3 and xenu

alan walter knowledgism has this to say about it :eek:


I think it would be a very good idea if we viewed the whole of the
"OT Levels" in PT. And viewed them from the idea that Amos or Ralph
or Joe Shmoe had discovered them.

!. They are not OT Levels.

2. They are engramic incidents. (I think being transported to a
volcano, having a H-Bomb exploded on top of you qualifies as an engram.)


3. They are late on the chain engramic incidents.......worse they are
"end of game" engramic incidents......as such they have earlier
beginnings and later endings.

4. End of Game and loss of Game are the basis of
depression......Gameless, Goaless and Souless.

5. R6-EW, CC, OT I, II, III. are 3rd and 4th dynamic engramic
incidents - the odds are very few people have enough charge off their
cases to run the actual incidents.


6. In picking up another entities case to run on the
material......you would have exactly the same phenomena on that
entity as you had during your beginning auditing.

7. You now have multiple time tracks and beings in restimulation as
well as your own.

8. The odds of getting these incidents and implants are remote.

9. The logistic are utterly improbable and impossible.

10. The cost would have been astronomical...........DC 8's with
propellers would not have been viable transportation to transport 40
billion bodies to any of the many locations.

11. Running the OT levels violates the Auditors Code.......Do not
evaluate for the pc.

On the plus side.

1. Providing it is real and you have interest. - Run as an "end of
civilization" engram - with earlier beginning and later
endings.......you blow a tremendous amount of charge, also you get
the sequence of how Civilizations are formed and grown.

2. You can make some nifty friends with your entities.....and often
you can build a powerful spiritual team of entities.


3. You can have weird conversations with your friends.

4. You end up on very strange lists, e-mailing very strange messages,
to very strange people. :-D

Alan
To which I respond, WTFing Hell? What in the name of all that is Holy? What in the name of Xenu? :confused2: :nervous: :duh: :no:

So, as a practical matter, based on my own admittedly limited observations (and no, people, I haven't done a demographic survey to verify my observations -- like anyone here has engaged in the scientific study of their dead alien spirit body infestations), I don't see people really trying to extract the stuff I think may be useful, verifiable, and falsifiable. What I largely see is people clinging (albeit in a more benign setting) to the least verified, non-falsifiable delusional crap that they always clung to.

Secondly, the shit (Scientology) is addictive. The crack cocaine of spiritual, philosophical and religious pursuits. The ingestion of vitamin C can be beneficial. But taking vitamin C would not be beneficial if it was inexorably combined with crack, meth and heroin. Likewise, any "good" parts of Scientology are inexorably intertwined with the overwhelming, but frequently well-disguised, vile and disgusting parts.

Let us start with KSW No. 1 -- like every Scientology training course starts with KSW No. 1. Few people realize that may be the root of all evil in Scientology because it makes all of the Tech, indeed all of Scientology, non-falsifiable. KSW No. 1 establishes an irrebutable presumption that Scientology "works." If it doesn't work, it is because you did something wrong. Or were PTS. Or are an SP. Blah Blah Blah.

So one starts with one supposedly "workable" bit of tech, the bait, and proceeds to get inexorably sucked into the delusional, paranoid, non-falsifiable quagmire of the rest, the trap.

And eventually talking to the invisible souls of the dead space aliens that infest one's body.

And claim "wins" from doing so.

No thank you.

Yes, it can be argued that a trap would not be a very good trap if the bait were all putrid crap. That doesn't justify stepping into the trap. "Oh, yes, I recognize it is a bear trap, but the bait, an apple, looks so yummy that I'll just see if I can snatch the apple before the steel jaws cut my arm off."

Yep, there's the ticket to a happy life.

I see it all of the time on here. "Ex" Scientologists applying the ethics formulas.

"Ex" Scientologists criticizing the current organization from, and indeed only from, an internal, Scientological perspective. "Ron said blah, blah, blah, but management isn't doing it." "The tech has been altered."

"DM isn't receiving auditing!" (Perhaps because he knows after long experience it is worthless crap?)

"They aren't applying the Data Evaluators Series!" Well, duh. Who would if they had been educated past the fifth grade? Ever think there might be a reason that the Data Evaluators Series, or indeed any of the Management "Tech" is not taught anywhere other than places where people have been indoctrinated to accept Hubbard's word as gospel? (See discussion of KSW No. 1 above.)

Guess what? You can't go home again.

You are never going to feel the same way as when you were young, and bright and shiny, naive and idealistic and thought you were going to save the world, or be part of something wonderful that was larger than yourself, or that you were going to gain super powers, or defeat they cycle of life and death. Its over. Get over it.

Scientology represents not only the triumph of the placebo effect, but addiction to the placebo effect.

Which leads me, again, to the question in the title of the post. Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

Is it because it is nice to think that you did not entirely waste 10, 20, 30 or more years of one's life?

Is it because it is nice to believe that the Certs in the closet (Class IV, Class VI, Class VIII auditor, Sec Checker, FPRD, etc.) that one invested years of hard work in obtaining (instead, perhaps, of obtaining a real education that would be recognized by the outside world, the real world) have at least some value, and were not a complete waste of time, effort, money... and the ruined family it cost to obtain them?

Yes, I understand it it must be difficult to accept that successful completion of the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course, and your certification as a Class VI Auditor (Platinum Titanium sealed) does not really qualify you to actually do anything.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I don't. I cherry pick. Some of it is useful, and some sucks. But it took me 35 years to get to this point, and I certainly don't suggest new people try out Scientology and only use the best bits because they won't be able to escape all the pitfalls.

Paul
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I don't. I cherry pick. Some of it is useful, and some sucks. But it took me 35 years to get to this point, and I certainly don't suggest new people try out Scientology and only use the best bits because they won't be able to escape all the pitfalls.
Very interesting perspective. I can see the point. If one has already paid the price -- and I don't just mean in money, or even in time -- avoided some pitfalls, fallen head first into others -- avoided some landmines, and perhaps been blown up by a few -- only to emerge on the other side -- at least emerge outside of the official organization of the Church of Scientology -- why not use the tech that one has paid so dearly for, and does not suck?

Yet... has one then fully emerged? Fully escaped?

Yet... I can't help but think, it is still the case that, "there there be dragons."

The trap never was just the organization. Few, if any, were held forcibly against their wills, and even then not all the time. No, the trap was, and is, the mindset, the non-falsifiable nature of Scientology.

It is not necessary for others to give you orders if you are already giving the same orders to yourself. And obeying them without fail.
 
Very interesting perspective. I can see the point. If one has already paid the price -- and I don't just mean in money, or even in time -- avoided some pitfalls, fallen head first into others -- avoided some landmines, and perhaps been blown up by a few -- only to emerge on the other side -- at least emerge outside of the official organization of the Church of Scientology -- why not use the tech that one has paid so dearly for, and does not suck?

Yet... has one then fully emerged? Fully escaped?

Yet... I can't help but think, it is still the case that, "there there be dragons."

The trap never was just the organization. Few, if any, were held forcibly against their wills, and even then not all the time. No, the trap was, and is, the mindset, the non-falsifiable nature of Scientology.

It is not necessary for others to give you orders if you are already giving the same orders to yourself. And obeying them without fail.

You say "Why not use the tech that you have paid so dearly for, and does not suck?"

If it does not suck than it does not suck so why not use it?
I am not arguing about the tech here, myself; just your contradiction as you imply that any of the tech will contaminate. If someone thinks some part is good they may use it but totally oppose other parts.

Ex junkie nurses will not throw away the morphine if she thinks it will halp a patient, just because she almost O'D'd on it herself. (hope that metaphor is not too silly:) )
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree Kha Khan. :thumbsup:

It took me years and years to move from my original point on leaving of rejecting the ethics and admin, but still supposing much of the tech was valid.

Then I rejected the OT level as as code-breaking nutty rubish, but still assumed the grades and Dn was valid.

Then I rejected Dn auditing as no better than running false memories in hypnotism/psychology. There was no way of proving validity or invalidity of whole track. Feeling better, which I often did as a PC and as my PCs usuallly did, was no proof of anything, except that they felt better.

Then I rejected much of the Grades tech and certainly the auditing procedure used as hypnotic, suggestive and based upon much LRH "tech" that was garbled and cobbled.

At this point I evaluated LRH's life and intentions and actions (Bare Faced Messiah, Ron's Admissions, etc) and realised that Source was a nut-case and anything developed by the nut-case had to be suspected and inspected for alternative explanations as to what was really going on as opposed to what Ron, the nut-case, told us was going on.

This took me about 25 years to process my experience of the ten years in the cult.

When ESMB started I think the only parts of Scn tech that I held on to were the rules about eval and inval.

Over the past two years I have realised these two rules, far from being the positive, protective things that I had believed them to be, that they were in fact two key aspects of the slave-making trap that Hubbard caught us in!

Nothing scientological left to hold on to! Free at last! Free at last! :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:
 
Why do YOU cling to the "Tech?"

It's obvious why the people who are selling it do it, but as for the ones who are not profiting from it, it's not quiste so clear. I'd suspect it for the same reasons people continue to abuse drugs or stay in abusive and dysfunctional relationships for decades after they know they are not healthy.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Very interesting perspective. I can see the point. If one has already paid the price -- and I don't just mean in money, or even in time -- avoided some pitfalls, fallen head first into others -- avoided some landmines, and perhaps been blown up by a few -- only to emerge on the other side -- at least emerge outside of the official organization of the Church of Scientology -- why not use the tech that one has paid so dearly for, and does not suck?

Yet... has one then fully emerged? Fully escaped?

Yet... I can't help but think, it is still the case that, "there there be dragons."

The trap never was just the organization. Few, if any, were held forcibly against their wills, and even then not all the time. No, the trap was, and is, the mindset, the non-falsifiable nature of Scientology.

It is not necessary for others to give you orders if you are already giving the same orders to yourself. And obeying them without fail.

You say "Why not use the tsch that you have paid so dearly for, and does not suck?"

If it does not suck than it does not suck so why not use it?
I am not arguing about the tech here, myself; just your contradiction as you imply that any of the tech will contaminate. If someone thinks some part is good they may use it but totally oppose other parts.

Ex junkie nurses will not throw away the morphine if she thinks it will halp a patient, just because she almost O'D'd on it herself. (hope that metaphor is not too silly:) )

I read this as Kha Khan working out the paradox verbally in his post, so of course there are contradictions while he is thinking his way through it.

I thought his "there there be dragons." expressed well his uncertainty over what he was saying.

"It is not necessary for others to give you orders if you are already giving the same orders to yourself. And obeying them without fail." - I think this is essentially what Ron did to trap us. He used his skill as a hypnotic persuader to install/implant ideas in us which we then believed were our own. It was a clever magic trick.

Rather than pain and electronics to implant us, he used deprivation and repetition to implant us, but implant it still was. He knew this technique as a hypnotist and Black Magician and understood its power. See his Brainwashing Manual and read Orwell's 1984 that was published in the same year as DMSMH.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I don't "cling" to the tech as much as I know it works and I have seen it work for all my friends and it continues to help me.
:yes:

After you complete the "lower grades" and some of your old programming has been removed ("cleared"), you'll have been "set up" for the reverse flow of the "upper levels" (a kind of vacuum having been created to be filled), where you'll have new Hubbardian programming inserted (under the guise of "auditing"), and then you'll likely be psychologically at the effect of Scientology for the rest of your life.

Unlike others who had no warning, and to whom not much information was available, you have access - by way of the Internet - to a vast amount of information and insight re. the secretive and manipulative truth-coated subject of Scientology.

My guess, however, is that by this time next year you'll likely have joined either the Hare Krishna movement, Eckankar, or the Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
I have a question for Freezoners and "Independent" Scientologsits. The question is, "Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

I used to think some of the "Tech" had value. I thought I had extracted those small, low level, non-delusional, non-paranoid, portions of the Tech -- the Comm Course, the TRs, the ARC triangle, the KRC triangle (properly understood), etc. -- that were useful and unique (or, more precisely, new and unique developments or elaborations on prior ideas) that made the effort was worth it.

I have since decided that I was wrong. All of the "Tech" is dangerous. None of it, on balance, has value given the costs (discussed below) associated with practicing, studying, delivering or receiving the "Tech" even outside the official Church of Scientology. I believe this is true for two reasons.

First, I don't see Freezoners and Independent Scientologists using, much less concentrating on, much less exclusively using, the low level stuff that I thought was practical, useful and, quite frankly, not delusional. My point may be illustrated by a post I recently saw on WWP -- here it is:To which I respond, WTFing Hell? What in the name of all that is Holy? What in the name of Xenu? :confused2: :nervous: :duh: :no:

So, as a practical matter, based on my own admittedly limited observations (and no, people, I haven't done a demographic survey to verify my observations -- like anyone here has engaged in the scientific study of their dead alien spirit body infestations), I don't see people really trying to extract the stuff I think may be useful, verifiable, and falsifiable. What I largely see is people clinging (albeit in a more benign setting) to the least verified, non-falsifiable delusional crap that they always clung to.

Secondly, the shit (Scientology) is addictive. The crack cocaine of spiritual, philosophical and religious pursuits. The ingestion of vitamin C can be beneficial. But taking vitamin C would not be beneficial if it was inexorably combined with crack, meth and heroin. Likewise, any "good" parts of Scientology are inexorably intertwined with the overwhelming, but frequently well-disguised, vile and disgusting parts.

Let us start with KSW No. 1 -- like every Scientology training course starts with KSW No. 1. Few people realize that may be the root of all evil in Scientology because it makes all of the Tech, indeed all of Scientology, non-falsifiable. KSW No. 1 establishes an irrebutable presumption that Scientology "works." If it doesn't work, it is because you did something wrong. Or were PTS. Or are an SP. Blah Blah Blah.

So one starts with one supposedly "workable" bit of tech, the bait, and proceeds to get inexorably sucked into the delusional, paranoid, non-falsifiable quagmire of the rest, the trap.

And eventually talking to the invisible souls of the dead space aliens that infest one's body.

And claim "wins" from doing so.

No thank you.

Yes, it can be argued that a trap would not be a very good trap if the bait were all putrid crap. That doesn't justify stepping into the trap. "Oh, yes, I recognize it is a bear trap, but the bait, an apple, looks so yummy that I'll just see if I can snatch the apple before the steel jaws cut my arm off."

Yep, there's the ticket to a happy life.

I see it all of the time on here. "Ex" Scientologists applying the ethics formulas.

"Ex" Scientologists criticizing the current organization from, and indeed only from, an internal, Scientological perspective. "Ron said blah, blah, blah, but management isn't doing it." "The tech has been altered."

"DM isn't receiving auditing!" (Perhaps because he knows after long experience it is worthless crap?)

"They aren't applying the Data Evaluators Series!" Well, duh. Who would if they had been educated past the fifth grade? Ever think there might be a reason that the Data Evaluators Series, or indeed any of the Management "Tech" is not taught anywhere other than places where people have been indoctrinated to accept Hubbard's word as gospel? (See discussion of KSW No. 1 above.)

Guess what? You can't go home again.

You are never going to feel the same way as when you were young, and bright and shiny, naive and idealistic and thought you were going to save the world, or be part of something wonderful that was larger than yourself, or that you were going to gain super powers, or defeat they cycle of life and death. Its over. Get over it.

Scientology represents not only the triumph of the placebo effect, but addiction to the placebo effect.

Which leads me, again, to the question in the title of the post. Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

Is it because it is nice to think that you did not entirely waste 10, 20, 30 or more years of one's life?

Is it because it is nice to believe that the Certs in the closet (Class IV, Class VI, Class VIII auditor, Sec Checker, FPRD, etc.) that one invested years of hard work in obtaining (instead, perhaps, of obtaining a real education that would be recognized by the outside world, the real world) have at least some value, and were not a complete waste of time, effort, money... and the ruined family it cost to obtain them?

Yes, I understand it it must be difficult to accept that successful completion of the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course, and your certification as a Class VI Auditor (Platinum Titanium sealed) does not really qualify you to actually do anything.

Because I don't want to give up my ETERNITY.

I'd slurp liquid turd out of Hubbard's ass if he told me it was an OT level. I'd wolf it down and enjoy it and the best wine in the world would come nowhere near it.
 

michaelangelo

Gold Meritorious Patron
It seems to me that by constantly searching for truth outside oneself e g in Scio, Eckankar or whatever you are going to attract negative energies AKA crap.
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Why?

Aw hell, folks - it gives us something to talk about and, now and then, something to do...:p and remember that even avoiding a thing is doing SOMETHING! :coolwink:

I love you all! :yes:

That's entertainment as well. :whistling:

EP
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
Because I don't want to give up my ETERNITY.

I'd slurp liquid turd out of Hubbard's ass if he told me it was an OT level. I'd wolf it down and enjoy it and the best wine in the world would come nowhere near it.

If OT X involved jumping into a pool of sewage and slurping down the turds using a silver spoon while shouting "marvellous", "it's wonderful", "oh yummy" then I would have done it and most here would do it. LRH gave us the gift of ETERNITY and we should take it. :bigcry:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I have a question for Freezoners and "Independent" Scientologsits. The question is, "Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

Well, first off, I wouldn't use the term "cling". If I find something that works, then I know it works and knowing that isn't the same as clinging.

I used to think some of the "Tech" had value. I thought I had extracted those small, low level, non-delusional, non-paranoid, portions of the Tech -- the Comm Course, the TRs, the ARC triangle, the KRC triangle (properly understood), etc. -- that were useful and unique (or, more precisely, new and unique developments or elaborations on prior ideas) that made the effort was worth it.

I have since decided that I was wrong. All of the "Tech" is dangerous. None of it, on balance, has value given the costs (discussed below) associated with practicing, studying, delivering or receiving the "Tech" even outside the official Church of Scientology. I believe this is true for two reasons.

First, I don't see Freezoners and Independent Scientologists using, much less concentrating on, much less exclusively using, the low level stuff that I thought was practical, useful and, quite frankly, not delusional. My point may be illustrated by a post I recently saw on WWP -- here it is:To which I respond, WTFing Hell? What in the name of all that is Holy? What in the name of Xenu? :confused2: :nervous: :duh: :no:

I know a number of Freezoners who have courserooms where lower and intermediate level courses are given. And who audit things like OBJs, etc.

But I would disagree that any value or constructive interest in Scn would be confined to "low level tech".


So, as a practical matter, based on my own admittedly limited observations (and no, people, I haven't done a demographic survey to verify my observations -- like anyone here has engaged in the scientific study of their dead alien spirit body infestations), I don't see people really trying to extract the stuff I think may be useful, verifiable, and falsifiable. What I largely see is people clinging (albeit in a more benign setting) to the least verified, non-falsifiable delusional crap that they always clung to.

The two things wrong with what you say are that

1) independent and FZ Scn'ists do use and give courses in the things you name

and

2) those are things you've decided are valuable. That's you. That's not other people. Not everyone would (or does) draw the same conclusion as you have.



Secondly, the shit (Scientology) is addictive. The crack cocaine of spiritual, philosophical and religious pursuits. The ingestion of vitamin C can be beneficial. But taking vitamin C would not be beneficial if it was inexorably combined with crack, meth and heroin. Likewise, any "good" parts of Scientology are inexorably intertwined with the overwhelming, but frequently well-disguised, vile and disgusting parts.

This can be said of any spiritual avocation, religion or pursuit of same or philosophy.


Let us start with KSW No. 1 -- like every Scientology training course starts with KSW No. 1. Few people realize that may be the root of all evil in Scientology because it makes all of the Tech, indeed all of Scientology, non-falsifiable. KSW No. 1 establishes an irrebutable presumption that Scientology "works." If it doesn't work, it is because you did something wrong. Or were PTS. Or are an SP. Blah Blah Blah.

The church is pretty centered on KSW1, but not all non CofS Scientologists are. There are probably some Free Zoners who are into KSW1 but many aren't. You're not going to persuade someone who audits by phone or does other things LRH didn't do that KSW1 is valid.

Also, I find it ironic that the cult stresses KSW1 as they do since they violate it on a daily basis.


So one starts with one supposedly "workable" bit of tech, the bait, and proceeds to get inexorably sucked into the delusional, paranoid, non-falsifiable quagmire of the rest, the trap.

And eventually talking to the invisible souls of the dead space aliens that infest one's body.

So what? There are many religions that believe in spiritual infestation, soul fragmentation and possession.

Anyone who actually understands Scientology knows that it isn't so much the incident content that matters- but the intentions, postulates, considerations, etc, that the person had that are the real core belief of Scientology.

Thus, a number of critics and skeptics often put far more emphasis on bts than most Scn'ists would.

And claim "wins" from doing so.

If they think they feel better, then they do. All therapeutic gains are subjective.

No thank you.

Well, you don't have to do any of that stuff. There are many other paths in life to take. And I'll be the first to say that there are things out there (other than Scn) that would probably produce great degrees of assistance, light, love and enlightenment.

But just cuz you don't want a particular path does not mean that this is the right decision for others.


I see it all of the time on here. "Ex" Scientologists applying the ethics formulas.

Where? What post? Link?

"Ex" Scientologists criticizing the current organization from, and indeed only from, an internal, Scientological perspective. "Ron said blah, blah, blah, but management isn't doing it." "The tech has been altered."

It is a common and misleading allegation by critics that Freezoners think that LRH's administration was perfect and that the only problem is DM and his doings. Actually, many non CofS Scientologists have criticized Hubbard and elements of the "tech" right here on this forum- and elsewhere.


"DM isn't receiving auditing!" (Perhaps because he knows after long experience it is worthless crap?)


I think the valid point in that thread was his hypocrisy. If he thinks it's worthless crap then why is he selling it and dangling it like a goddamn carrot?

So, threads like that are a good idea, actually.


"They aren't applying the Data Evaluators Series!" Well, duh. Who would if they had been educated past the fifth grade? Ever think there might be a reason that the Data Evaluators Series, or indeed any of the Management "Tech" is not taught anywhere other than places where people have been indoctrinated to accept Hubbard's word as gospel? (See discussion of KSW No. 1 above.)


Because, again, it's about hypocrisy. There we have a cult that preaches and sells (at high prices) certain ideas and then not only does not practice them but does the opposite of them while continuing to sell them and point fingers at others. The church brays about standard tech and accuses certain others of alteration while it alters like crazy.

It's like a priest in the infamous Spanish Inquisition preaching about love and forgiveness and not casting the first stone later that day torturing someone who was thought to be a "Judeizer".


You are never going to feel the same way as when you were young, and bright and shiny, naive and idealistic and thought you were going to save the world, or be part of something wonderful that was larger than yourself, or that you were going to gain super powers, or defeat they cycle of life and death. Its over. Get over it.

You are assuming people are trying to recapture something and that they cannot.

The two things wrong with this assumption are that Free Zoners are not trying to recapture anything, and that you are assuming they lost it in the first place.



Which leads me, again, to the question in the title of the post. Why do you cling to the "Tech?"

I don't. If something's there, it's there. If it's not, it's not.

Is it because it is nice to think that you did not entirely waste 10, 20, 30 or more years of one's life?

No. If Scn did not work for me, I'd be more than happy to admit it.


Is it because it is nice to believe that the Certs in the closet (Class IV, Class VI, Class VIII auditor, Sec Checker, FPRD, etc.) that one invested years of hard work in obtaining (instead, perhaps, of obtaining a real education that would be recognized by the outside world, the real world) have at least some value, and were not a complete waste of time, effort, money... and the ruined family it cost to obtain them?

No. I never let the cult ruin and bankrupt me to begin with.

I've never bragged about my certs whereas there are people who hate Scn and criticize it who do brag about them. Other non CofS Scientologists I see here also aren't very into bragging about certs. But, like I said, I sure see some of those who no longer have an interest in Scn sometimes referring to theirs.

Glad to correct these false assumptions. This has been fun.
 
If OT X involved jumping into a pool of sewage and slurping down the turds using a silver spoon while shouting "marvellous", "it's wonderful", "oh yummy" then I would have done it and most here would do it. LRH gave us the gift of ETERNITY and we should take it. :bigcry:

If the route to ETERNITY is archived either through spending a decade or two of your life holding tin cans while talking to yourself and looking for imaginary disembodied spiritual parasites, or jumping into a pool of sewage and slurping down the turds using a silver spoon while shouting "marvellous", "it's wonderful", "oh yummy" .

I'd say it's a toss up on which route makes the most sense, and which one to take
 

justaguy

Patron Meritorious
If OT X involved jumping into a pool of sewage and slurping down the turds using a silver spoon while shouting "marvellous", "it's wonderful", "oh yummy" then I would have done it and most here would do it. LRH gave us the gift of ETERNITY and we should take it. :bigcry:

Are you serious? I don't know you that well so I honestly can't tell.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Are you serious? I don't know you that well so I honestly can't tell.

Mostly he sees it all through the sour end of the spectrum and twists things in that direction. Very occasionally he is straight with his observations. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

Paul
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
If the route to ETERNITY is archived either through spending a decade or two of your life holding tin cans while talking to yourself and looking for imaginary disembodied spiritual parasites, or jumping into a pool of sewage and slurping down the turds using a silver spoon while shouting "marvellous", "it's wonderful", "oh yummy" .

I'd say it's a toss up on which route makes the most sense, and which one to take

Take the quickest route always. Diving in there and slurping down turds for only tens of thousands of dollars beats talking to your dead space aliens for several years. Do whatever LRH says you should do. Trouble is, long and drawn out is the most expensive route and therefore the route that LRH gave us to achieve Eternity. Note I used the word "achieve" rather than "archive". Your Study Tech(tm) is showing through.
 
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