Why doesn't OT3 use the Valence Tech?

[Panda Termint]

Then use the Milazzo RD, and skip the drug-hallucination/mind games, in which case it wouldn't be "OT 3" anymore would it?

And, of course, to an Implantologist, that wouldn't be acceptable, despite the denials and PR.

In the mean time, to you Xenu-tech folks, is it really necessary to continue to scare people - particularly newbie lurkers - just to convince them how wonderful the Implantology levels really are? Aren't there more subtle ways of promoting your beloved Implantology?

I think you misunderstand my intentions, Veda.

I'm not Xenu-tech at all and am not promoting anything, my opinion on this should be clear to anyone who has read my posts.

I'm imparting anomalous data that I think is interesting and pertinent to the discussion. I know of only one other scn'ist that has had a similar experience to the one I described.

If you truly believe in honest discussion and debate on this subject then, surely, you must be willing to allow others to present their data?

 

[Mystic]

At least science fiction says of itself that it is science FICTION

So-called "OT3" is a most excellent example of the mind's capacity to accept lies, illusions and hallucinations as "truth" and as being "valid". Once one groks the psychic nature of the mind and this VERY alive planet on which we live (incarnate) and die (discarnate), it all begins to come rather clear.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I think you misunderstand my intentions, Veda.

He does. He's quite practiced at it and has become very adept in his way. He prefers inserting his own conclusions in place of the representation of another's viewpoints. As from Lewis Carroll: "...he only does it to annoy because he knows it teases".

Although the possibiliy does exist that he can't help himself.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

So-called "OT3" is a most excellent example of the mind's capacity to accept lies, illusions and hallucinations as "truth" and as being "valid". Once one groks the psychic nature of the mind and this VERY alive planet on which we live (incarnate) and die (discarnate), it all begins to come rather clear.

If you mean that OT III is not "as advertised", I agree completely.

If you mean that there is "nothing in OT III that can be usefully addressed in auditing", I do not agree.

There may well exist better techniques for addressing whatever actual case issues may be addressed by OT III, but a person can get useful benefit from the running the level. He can also make a complete hash of running it, or get no discernible effects according to how it is addressed.

As far as I'm concerned, whether someone "needs" to address it is wholly up to them.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

In August 1938, L. Ron Hubbard wrote of an envisioned psychological and political movement, through which he would attain lasting fame "by smashing his name into history." The effort would be completely amoral, yet shroud itself in "philosophy," with its "real goal" being concealed.

In 1946/47, Hubbard wrote of his hypnotic power over others, and how his words, and his psychology, would hypnotize others, and how he would become their "ruler."

In 1950, He wrote 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health', and several years later began Scientology, and shortly thereafter, in accordance with what he called "the religion angle," began the "Church of Scientology."

Hubbard had a gift and talent as a natural psychologist, unfortunately he also had a hidden agenda.

Attracted by the seemingly benign aspects of Dianetics and Scientology, individuals became involved, contributing their ideas and discoveries. Hubbard "borrowed" many of these, usually without giving credit.

In 1955, a peculiar booklet appeared, which Hubbard called the 'Brainwashing manual', it was publicized in an attempt to give credence to Dianetics/Scientology and also to identify critics, dissenters, and psychologists and psychiatrists with Communism, and then the 'Brainwashing manual' faded away, as a propaganda device.

By 1965, that same 'manual' was beginning to be applied, covertly, by Hubbard, to Scientologists, with almost every aspect (of a non-medical nature) being adopted as part of Scientology tech by 1974. http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/books/brainwa1.jpg

One of the last items of Scientology tech developed by Hubbard was Scientology PR tech, the non-confidential portion of which is available in the 'PR Series'. This PR tech, and other manipulative "handlings," are frequently used by both corporate Scientology and Freezone Scientology to further their own ends, and - not surprisingly - can make discussion of certain aspects of Scientology difficult. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1911

With these things in mind, it might be wise to examine, or re-examine, Scientology with a critical eye, particularly Scientology post-1965. It's also a good idea to keep in mind that Scientology has a tech for preventing, or discouraging, that critical examination.

For almost 50 years, Hubbard's 'manual' has been in application, and it has had an effect, and that effect still resonates, inside and outside Scientology.

 

[lionheart]

<snip>

I never "met" Xenu in session but I "saw" and ran out plenty of volcanoes and atomic-like explosions in Dianetics long before I ever got to the confidential data of OTIII.

I once had an intensive Director of Processing check (in the middle of Dianetic auditing) because the C/S assumed I must have been exposed to "Upper Level" data whilst still a pre-Clear.

My answer was, basically, "I'm just answering the auditing question".

I ran much of this type of incident to great relief on Standard Dianetics, R3R.

<snip>

Ron talks about explosions and the crucial effect on a PCs case in an early PAB - I think it is under the heading "the Cycle of an Explosion" or some such similar title. He may have talked about it elsewhere. Is it possible that you may have been exposed to this data?

I was, and I ran explosions on my Dn case too. I "knew" it was important to do so, because Ron had told me it was!

The DofP interview you had was extremely evaluative, telling you that such things were significant and related to "upper levels". Did you run more explosions afterwards?

Another way of looking at OTIII is that Ron was making his old 1950's tech on explosions right. Also his 1952 "research" (which was actually squirrel auditing by MSH) on "Targs" was made right by his OTIII "breakthrough".

So actually OTIII could actually have been Ron acting out his own make-right thoughts where he re-vivied old abandoned 1950's tech and made it even more significant and right.

 

[Alan]

A big part of Buddhism includes the "shattering" which is the basic explosion that set us on a our differing paths.

 

[degraded being]

I do not doubt anything that Panda said about what he experienced.
And DIV 6 with pneumonia symptoms. I don't doubt it for one minute.
I do not doubt that you have found running OT3 and other levels beneficial.

The bit I don't get is when you seem to block out all the experience that I
assume you have had, hearing stories about such coincidences with every superstition under the sun. The way to work out that X caused Y.


The only question is: Why didn't you ask the Virgin Mary for help? She has caused the blind to see, made barren women fertile. The Lord (the christian one, not xenu) has caused people to become wealthy and helped people tp pass their exams. There are lots of others.

Haven't you heard anything about coincidence, logic, common sense?

 

[lionheart]

A big part of Buddhism includes the "shattering" which is the basic explosion that set us on a our differing paths.

Yes, Ron's twist on it was that we were all separate anyway and then got gathered together and exploded apart!

The polarity of separation and oneness is just another apparancy of the dichotomous universe.

Opposites are all illusions. If the so-called "opposites" are discharged against each other, the major innaccuracy of Hubbard's so-called "thetans" is exposed.

This is a fundamental paradox, that cannot be intellectually "understood". Separate and One. Yet Neither Separate Nor One. This can be groked by discharging the polarity.

I am separate
I am One

Cycled backwards and forwards can produce remarkable results.

 

[Veda]

I do not doubt anything that Panda said about what he experienced.
And DIV 6 with pneumonia symptoms. I don't doubt it for one minute.
I do not doubt that you have found running OT3 and other levels beneficial.

The bit I don't get is when you seem to block out all the experience that I
assume you have had, hearing stories about such coincidences with every superstition under the sun. The way to work out that X caused Y.


The only question is: Why didn't you ask the Virgin Mary for help? She has caused the blind to see, made barren women fertile. The Lord (the christian one, not xenu) has caused people to become wealthy and helped people tp pass their exams. There are lots of others.

Haven't you heard anything about coincidence, logic, common sense?

And also the power of suggestion:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77423&postcount=9

The "OT levels" did not produce "OTs." "Scientology OTs" are - for the most part - ordinary people who happen to have a peculiar belief system, a belief system that they usually don't feel free to openly discuss.

 

[Panda Termint]

Ron talks about explosions and the crucial effect on a PCs case in an early PAB - I think it is under the heading "the Cycle of an Explosion" or some such similar title. He may have talked about it elsewhere. Is it possible that you may have been exposed to this data?

I was, and I ran explosions on my Dn case too. I "knew" it was important to do so, because Ron had told me it was!

The DofP interview you had was extremely evaluative, telling you that such things were significant and related to "upper levels". Did you run more explosions afterwards?

Another way of looking at OTIII is that Ron was making his old 1950's tech on explosions right. Also his 1952 "research" (which was actually squirrel auditing by MSH) on "Targs" was made right by his OTIII "breakthrough".

So actually OTIII could actually have been Ron acting out his own make-right thoughts where he re-vivied old abandoned 1950's tech and made it even more significant and right.

Anything is possible, I guess.

Like everyone; I'd seen plenty of movies, read a lot of books, heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, atomic testing was the order of the day and I'd obviously spent some time thinking about all things nuclear.

I'd undoubtedly heard/read something Hubbardian about explosions by that point in my scn career.

Your conclusion about what might have occurred in the pre-Clear DofP interview is flawed but I see how you arrived at it from what I'd written. I only realised the true nature of the DofP Interview after the fact of doing OT3 myself, there was no hint or evaluation about Upper Levels, nor any mention of them, in the interview. It was all just Case Data gathering as far as I was concerned at the time.

I'm not asserting anything about OT3 with my personal revelations, I'm simply stating what I experienced.

It has always struck me as a VERY curious thing that, assuming the whole Xenu thing is an invented Hubb-crock, why did I choose the metaphor I used ("I feel like I'm sitting on a volcano, waiting to blow up!") to describe my feelings? It's certainly not an expression that is part of my normal metaphor-repertoire. My choice of words in that report to the C/S was certainly the subject of much mirth in the AO Tech area.

Perhaps I picked the concept up telepathically from someone who'd already done OT3? Oh, wait a minute, that won't fly; there are no OT Powerz!

Perhaps a BT told me about it? Oh, wait a minute, that won't fly; there are no BTs!

Perhaps I was covertly implanted with the data so that I'd later believe it was true? Oh, wait a minute, that won't fly; these things are secret and must never be revealed before OT3!

Perhaps it's just a simple coincidence? Yeah, that'll do!

 

[Panda Termint]

And also the power of suggestion:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77423&postcount=9

The "OT levels" did not produce "OTs." "Scientology OTs" are - for the most part - ordinary people who happen to have a peculiar belief system, a belief system that they usually don't feel free to openly discuss.

Just out of curiosity, Veda, what would you consider to be an adequate demonstration of OT ability?

 

[Dulloldfart]

Perhaps I picked the concept up telepathically from someone who'd already done OT3?

Or more than one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphic_field

Paul

 

[Panda Termint]

Or more than one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphic_field

Paul

Interesting article, Paul.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Interesting article, Paul.

Yeah. Sheldrake has written some fascinating books, some of which I've been able to get from a local library. Well, local at the time in LA.

Paul

 

[Panda Termint]

Yeah. Sheldrake has written some fascinating books, some of which I've been able to get from a local library. Well, local at the time in LA.
Paul

I'm just listening to Sheldrake's 2008 Tucson address about the Evolution of Telepathy, very interesting data.
I'll keep an eye out for his books, thanks.

 

[Div6]

Discussion of OT III has been "nichts, verboten" for ever within the confines of orthodox scientology. Here on ESMB we have people who have had the experience of OT III, able to discuss freely their experiences, doubts, wins etc.
They would NOT be discussing these things if they had any desire of "going up the bridge" within the CoS. So take it for what it is worth.

I see it as an exercise in consciousness. For me, the value was in spanning attention in space AND time, as well as "getting bigger" than certain incidents. It has some plus points to it, but there are some definite issues with it as well. Is it worth what the CoS demands? I don't think so. But then, not everyone gets something out of it, from what we have seen.

Is this post "PR"? I hardly think so, but your mileage may vary.

 

[Veda]

Just out of curiosity, Veda, what would you consider to be an adequate demonstration of OT ability?

Notice that, if I use the term "OT" or "Operating Thetan," there are always quotation marks. I'm not a Scientologist and I don't use the Hubbardism, and Hubbard-inside-joke-term, "thetan."

The definition I would use for "OT" would be Hubbard's definition. See 'Technical Dictionary'.

I haven't requested a "demonstration of OT ability," but the description of the abilities of an "OT 8" (per the old 'Grade Chart') will do:

"Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective."

I'm also not a materialist, and don't discount psychical or paranormal sensitivities and abilities.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=43814&postcount=273

I also don't discount the (not advertized) secretive - and dominant - portion of Scientology doctrine (and I don't mean the "OT levels"), which stretches back to 1938, although I recognize that Scientologists, while the effect of this behind-the scenes portion of the doctrine of Scientology, are also in denial regarding it.

"Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write.

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions for you are their ruler."

From L. Ron Hubbard's 'Affirmations', 1947.

 

[xseaorguk]

here some OT 8 Powerzz in action

sorry if this throws the thread but just discovered it, enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvX9xWAsEuQ&feature=channel_page

 

[Div6]

Notice that, if I use the term "OT" or "Operating Thetan," there are always quotation marks. I'm not a Scientologist and I don't use the Hubbardism, and Hubbard-inside-joke-term, "thetan."

The definition I would use for "OT" would be Hubbard's definition. See 'Technical Dictionary'.

I haven't requested a "demonstration of OT ability," but the description of the abilities of an "OT 8" (per the old 'Grade Chart') will do:

"Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective."

I'm also not a materialist, and don't discount psychical or paranormal sensitivities and abilities.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=43814&postcount=273

I also don't discount the (not advertized) secretive - and dominant - portion of Scientology doctrine (and I don't mean the "OT levels"), which stretches back to 1938, although I recognize that Scientologists, while the effect of this behind-the scenes portion of the doctrine of Scientology, are also in denial regarding it.

"Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write.

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions for you are their ruler."

From L. Ron Hubbard's 'Affirmations', 1947.

Did those LRH postulates stick for you Veda?

Too bad there wasn't anyone there to prep-check the dude on these "self-determined" changes. It might have saved us all a lot of grief.