Why I post

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I just wanted to post something about my stance. Sometimes people ask or comment about that, so figured maybe I should create something. If discussion of an individual contributor (or this individual contributor) isn't your bag, you may want to skip this one.

As some people already know, I came to criticism and posting about 10 years ago, just blundered into it. I was in CofS at the time and found alt.religion.scientology by accident and the rest, as they say, is history. At the time, I just wanted to (in the words of one lady there) "Witness for (my) religion". I just wanted to talk. Ultimately? I ended up learning a lot and leaving CofS. Since then, I've been on the radio (once) criticizing CofS, have talked with other media on other occasions, including doing a tv interview that, unfortunately, ended up on the cutting room floor, so it didn't get used. Too bad, too, 'cuz it was pretty critical. I never ever did any dissemination courses or "handling" drills or TR-Lie or anything like that. I don't consider myself to be a typical Scn'ist. Everything I learned about debate on forums was forged in the furnaces of a.r.s.- not the Scn Adademy.

Originally, I'd felt upset about the Scn thing because I knew I liked most of the ideas and methods in it and the only people who were offering it was CofS and they were such assclowns. I remember being upset about that years before I left. At the time, I stayed. I'd been pretty well indoctrinated about squirrels, etc, so figured that wasn't an option. Eventually, those clowns pushed me so hard on the "you better not post and you can't even read the forum" issue, I got mad and left, particularly since they showed me contempt at the same time while asking for MY money and MY time. I figured, "WTF am I even doing here?" And I left and stopped self censoring-which I was doing in my posts up til then. They didn't like that and expelled both myself and my husband as they were evidently having a two for one special on Swazeys.

But I still had a lot of interest in Scn itself and I still did. I could see plenty of flaws in it but there were plenty of things that struck me as just fine. So I decided that this was still my personal creed and that I could implement anything that was positive and discard anything that wasn't.

I've never been interested in proselytizing. My thing is about choice. I want to see people feel free to speak out, to picket, to leaflet, or to do Scn outside CofS or to do Scn inside CofS. It's that person's choice. This is a red hot "button" with me. I really did not like CofS telling me who to talk to and who not. I'm happy to see people studying Scn- I'm not going to lie to you. But I'm also pleased to see them ditch the whole thing. My question to anyone who ever asked me has always been: "What do you want to do?" It's not about what the cult wants them to do or what some other person thinks they should do or what the media or their Mommy or their drycleaner thinks they should do. It's up to the person.

I do not believe that freedom of speech should be limited to one point of view- that way or the highway. I left the cult over that issue.

So what am I "selling"? It isn't Scn. I'm "selling" freedom of speech and of choice. And to qualify that last, I do not condone any choices that include RPFing people, ripping families apart or any illegal and/or predatory actions. Part of my freedom of choice is to decry these actions whenever they occur in CofS and I've written much on the subject. But my underlying stance and reason for posting is to let people know they have a right to choose. They have a right to leave CofS. They have a right to study Scn elsewhere. They have a right to say "Are you kidding? I don't want any part of that." They have a right to picket and to pass out leaflets, if that's what they want to do.

I take a dim view of people who get mad if others don't want to picket or who don't want others to exercise their rights to pursue their ideological interests and freedom of choice. That's it. That's my thing. I'm proselytizing freedom of speech and of (legal actions only) choice.
 

Pixie

Crusader
Good one Fluffbag!! You go girl!! :thumbsup: I'm all for freedom of speech, if we had nothing else in our lives, we ought to have just that! :yes: You do what you feel is right for you and from your heart, no one can argue with a heart. :no:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
That's pretty much my whole take as well. I was out when I found a.r.s, but otherwise our stories are similar.

It's funny, I found it easier to go to a psychologist (but not a psychiatrist) after I got out than a squirrel group. One of the reasons I've never gone is not wanting to be declared (so far as I know, I'm still in limbo). Call it what you like, but in the good moments of auditing, I got more gains than I ever got during the sessions with the psychologist. For that reason, I've basically decided that I'm going to find someone in the field, but not "freezone" in particular.

Given what's going on in the CoS today, and so many of my old friends still in, I'm beginning to wonder if I care about goldenrod. It's very freeing.
 

Pixie

Crusader
That's pretty much my whole take as well. I was out when I found a.r.s, but otherwise our stories are similar.

It's funny, I found it easier to go to a psychologist (but not a psychiatrist) after I got out than a squirrel group. One of the reasons I've never gone is not wanting to be declared (so far as I know, I'm still in limbo). Call it what you like, but in the good moments of auditing, I got more gains than I ever got during the sessions with the psychologist. For that reason, I've basically decided that I'm going to find someone in the field, but not "freezone" in particular.

Given what's going on in the CoS today, and so many of my old friends still in, I'm beginning to wonder if I care about goldenrod. It's very freeing.

Yes, you see I feel this is just fine, to follow your own instincts and do what's right for you without either making someone wrong for it or shoving it down anyones throat. Good for you thetanic.. we all need help .. sometimes.. :eyeroll: .. :yes:
 

byte301

Crusader
I just wanted to post something about my stance. Sometimes people ask or comment about that, so figured maybe I should create something. If discussion of an individual contributor (or this individual contributor) isn't your bag, you may want to skip this one.

As some people already know, I came to criticism and posting about 10 years ago, just blundered into it. I was in CofS at the time and found alt.religion.scientology by accident and the rest, as they say, is history. At the time, I just wanted to (in the words of one lady there) "Witness for (my) religion". I just wanted to talk. Ultimately? I ended up learning a lot and leaving CofS. Since then, I've been on the radio (once) criticizing CofS, have talked with other media on other occasions, including doing a tv interview that, unfortunately, ended up on the cutting room floor, so it didn't get used. Too bad, too, 'cuz it was pretty critical. I never ever did any dissemination courses or "handling" drills or TR-Lie or anything like that. I don't consider myself to be a typical Scn'ist. Everything I learned about debate on forums was forged in the furnaces of a.r.s.- not the Scn Adademy.

Originally, I'd felt upset about the Scn thing because I knew I liked most of the ideas and methods in it and the only people who were offering it was CofS and they were such assclowns. I remember being upset about that years before I left. At the time, I stayed. I'd been pretty well indoctrinated about squirrels, etc, so figured that wasn't an option. Eventually, those clowns pushed me so hard on the "you better not post and you can't even read the forum" issue, I got mad and left, particularly since they showed me contempt at the same time while asking for MY money and MY time. I figured, "WTF am I even doing here?" And I left and stopped self censoring-which I was doing in my posts up til then. They didn't like that and expelled both myself and my husband as they were evidently having a two for one special on Swazeys.

But I still had a lot of interest in Scn itself and I still did. I could see plenty of flaws in it but there were plenty of things that struck me as just fine. So I decided that this was still my personal creed and that I could implement anything that was positive and discard anything that wasn't.

I've never been interested in proselytizing. My thing is about choice. I want to see people feel free to speak out, to picket, to leaflet, or to do Scn outside CofS or to do Scn inside CofS. It's that person's choice. This is a red hot "button" with me. I really did not like CofS telling me who to talk to and who not. I'm happy to see people studying Scn- I'm not going to lie to you. But I'm also pleased to see them ditch the whole thing. My question to anyone who ever asked me has always been: "What do you want to do?" It's not about what the cult wants them to do or what some other person thinks they should do or what the media or their Mommy or their drycleaner thinks they should do. It's up to the person.

I do not believe that freedom of speech should be limited to one point of view- that way or the highway. I left the cult over that issue.

So what am I "selling"? It isn't Scn. I'm "selling" freedom of speech and of choice. And to qualify that last, I do not condone any choices that include RPFing people, ripping families apart or any illegal and/or predatory actions. Part of my freedom of choice is to decry these actions whenever they occur in CofS and I've written much on the subject. But my underlying stance and reason for posting is to let people know they have a right to choose. They have a right to leave CofS. They have a right to study Scn elsewhere. They have a right to say "Are you kidding? I don't want any part of that." They have a right to picket and to pass out leaflets, if that's what they want to do.

I take a dim view of people who get mad if others don't want to picket or who don't want others to exercise their rights to pursue their ideological interests and freedom of choice. That's it. That's my thing. I'm proselytizing freedom of speech and of (legal actions only) choice.

Good post, fluffy. :yes:
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great post. :thumbsup:

It's very close to how I also look at that subject. With the exception that I don't like to see people have to pay to study Scientology and by doing so support the church.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Great post. :thumbsup:

It's very close to how I also look at that subject. With the exception that I don't like to see people have to pay to study Scientology and by doing so support the church.


Sure. I have some opinions about CofS and they aren't positive at all. Although I think people have the right to make their choices as to whether or not to do Scn and where to do it, I personally do not feel that association with CofS is good for people.
 
Great post. :thumbsup:

It's very close to how I also look at that subject. With the exception that I don't like to see people have to pay to study Scientology and by doing so support the church.


Especially an overwhelming management bureaucracy whose primary function is to prevent scientology from actually happening anywhere and whose secondary purpose is the accumulation of real estate assets. Although, personally I have no objection to fee's which genuinely support courserooms & auditing.

Management & Marketing can suck eggs.


Mark A. Baker
 

FlunkedForLaughing

Patron with Honors
Leaving Scn is still new for me. I am looking at all my beliefs to figure out what I want to believe in and what is garbage. The more I look at Scn tech, the more I see it leads to enslavement.

I haven't come to terms with everything yet, but I would not want someone else to study Scn and fall under the spell of Scientology, where they abuse you financially, mentally, and in rare cases phycially, where they separate families and do all the bad unethical and sometimes illegal things you read about. I would not want anyone to get caught up in this scam, even if they had some successes along the way.

FFL
 

Pixie

Crusader
Leaving Scn is still new for me. I am looking at all my beliefs to figure out what I want to believe in and what is garbage. The more I look at Scn tech, the more I see it leads to enslavement.

I haven't come to terms with everything yet, but I would not want someone else to study Scn and fall under the spell of Scientology, where they abuse you financially, mentally, and in rare cases phycially, where they separate families and do all the bad unethical and sometimes illegal things you read about. I would not want anyone to get caught up in this scam, even if they had some successes along the way.

FFL

'The Spell of Scientology'.. good one FFL.. :thumbsup: I would advice same.. run for the hills I would say. :yes:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
One of the reasons I've never gone [to a squirrel group] is not wanting to be declared (so far as I know, I'm still in limbo).

I had that consideration, so my first auditing outside the CofS was over the telephone. I figured that was a safe way to do it.

After a few months I told someone about it and got "outed" shortly afterwards, but that was a risk I was willing to take by that time.

Paul
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, if the person is deriving some benefit from the ideology and not enmeshed in the cultic milieu, then there shouldn't be a problem. That's why there is an independent Scn and a Freezone movement (the two not being necessarily the same.).

A person's personal creed is their own choice, whether that creed would include Hubbardite ideas or whether it would be very different from anything like that.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I had that consideration, so my first auditing outside the CofS was over the telephone. I figured that was a safe way to do it.

After a few months I told someone about it and got "outed" shortly afterwards, but that was a risk I was willing to take by that time.

Paul


Right. I was pretty anti squirrel, too. At first there was the thought that I did not want to be expelled, then, when I'd really walked away, then I still wanted to take some time and figure things out. I already knew what my personal ideology and creed were, but wanted to figure out how I wanted to approach them. And, yeah, once I'd walked away and then later (in CofS' thrilling attempt to lock the barn door after the horse got out)was expelled, then it didn't matter any more.

If a person is thinking of going back to CofS and they get FZ auditing, they may have a problem if they go back. One is under such pressure to tell all one's secrets, could fail a meter or sec check or roll back, and then it could come out. Once they know that a CofS member has done FZ stuff, the person is often embroiled in endless handlings and doesn't get to do any services. This can often put the person in the position of having to select one or the other.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Two of the contacts I made in the independent field when I first left the Church have since gone back to it. I suppose if people know what the score is and still go back there despite that, it's up to them.

I think with new people though the correct action is to warn them off getting involved as strongly as possible, just as you would in the case of any other cult. I haven't found it a problem in practice as amongst the people I know Scientology's reputation is somewhere between that of the Mafia and that of the Gestapo.
 
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Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
Right. I was pretty anti squirrel, too. At first there was the thought that I did not want to be expelled, then, when I'd really walked away, then I still wanted to take some time and figure things out. I already knew what my personal ideology and creed were, but wanted to figure out how I wanted to approach them. And, yeah, once I'd walked away and then later (in CofS' thrilling attempt to lock the barn door after the horse got out)was expelled, then it didn't matter any more.

If a person is thinking of going back to CofS and they get FZ auditing, they may have a problem if they go back. One is under such pressure to tell all one's secrets, could fail a meter or sec check or roll back, and then it could come out. Once they know that a CofS member has done FZ stuff, the person is often embroiled in endless handlings and doesn't get to do any services. This can often put the person in the position of having to select one or the other.


I'd imagine that wasn't a very tough choice at that point. Being the church is so willing to give people the boot instead of actually help them through what they are experiencing. But hey the church can't help anyone anyways because they really don't care about anyone on a personal level. That alone will be their end.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'd imagine that wasn't a very tough choice at that point. Being the church is so willing to give people the boot instead of actually help them through what they are experiencing. But hey the church can't help anyone anyways because they really don't care about anyone on a personal level. That alone will be their end.

I think, in fact I know that there are many people in the CoS who really do care about people and want to help them.

Trouble is, the Tech doesn't really work the way they are told it should. So, they don't get good and consistent results.

So, it is much easier to find fault in the person who wanted to be helped. After all, who wants to admit to failing to help someone when you have the responsibility of holding 'one of the most important posts in the universe'?

Axiom142
 
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Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
...

I never ever did any dissemination courses or "handling" drills or TR-Lie or anything like that. I don't consider myself to be a typical Scn'ist. Everything I learned about debate on forums was forged in the furnaces of a.r.s.- not the Scn Adademy.

Well, there's your problem Fluffy! You didn't learn the Tech! If you had, you would never have become effect of it and you would still be in the CoS and winning!

Only kidding! I used to get really annoyed when Scienos (or anyone else for that matter) would tell me what my problem was. Normally followed by telling me that the solution was to buy this or that course, book package etc.

Originally, I'd felt upset about the Scn thing because I knew I liked most of the ideas and methods in it and the only people who were offering it was CofS and they were such assclowns. ...

What is an 'assclown'? :confused2:

Eventually, those clowns pushed me so hard on the "you better not post and you can't even read the forum" issue, ...

When I first read your posts about this a few years ago, I thought you were exaggerating. But, I was threatened with being declared for just reading things on critical sites. Not even posting!

This is what really p***es me off. The hypocrisy. On one hand they will ‘support’ the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but in the same breath tell their own members that reading other people’s stories and opinions is a crime.

Axiom142
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think, in fact I know that there are many people in the CoS who really do care about people and want to help them.

Trouble is, the Tech doesn't really work the way they are told it should. So, they don't get good and consistent results.

So, it is much easier to find fault in the person who wanted to be helped. After all, who wants to admit to failing to help someone when you have the responsibility of holding 'one of the most important posts in the universe'?

Axiom142


Yes, but that's why I used the word "church" and not the "members of the church". As a group (Scientologists) people are not important, and thus they are mistreated.
It's not just about the tech. Most of the time they don't even try to apply the tech (not that it works anyways).
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Yeah, I hear ya about the staff. A lot really do care and are lovely, lovely people. That's why I'm not always too thrilled at hearing them derided as often as they are, even though I'm NOT in agreement with them staying in CofS.

I had mentioned the thing about not doing TRLie and all this because when I've gotten into debates- even on ESMB- there've been times some people have said "...typical Scn'ist. You this, you that. You sound like..." and there've been implications and sometimes outright comments saying that I'm like trying to handle people and am just like the OSA HCO IJC alphabet soup types...yeah, right. Try to find anyone else like me around in Scn, in or out of CofS- like that'll happen!! :coolwink:

Yes, I was NOT exaggerating about the being in trouble for posting. They even showed up at my house!! I lost one of my best friends over it. I kept suspending my posting cuz they'd hassle me, then I'd get pissed off about the freedom of speech issue and start posting again. Whenever I did, OSA would telex the org.

Then one day John the Wonderhusband posted a humorous JPG depicting a half naked "Sea Orger", so to speak, on the "Freewinds" and I got a call at my work. Boy, were they pissed. Another one he did was a staff photo of Flag execs with another half naked chick in a nautical cap photoshopped in with them with a humorous snarky caption. That one netted us some calls, too.

They just went apeshit over all that...that's why I'm so adamant about freedom of speech and people trying to censor others.

I've defended FZers many times. But let me tell you what- I've also defended critics when talking to Scn'ists who were trying to handle me. Freedom of speech and of choice are my thing here.
 
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